-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J
One of the things that I have noticed, is that many Papists and Orthodoxists (lack of a better term) do and do mistakenly, is to equivocate being spiritually alive with being physically alive. If there is no meaningful death with no meaningful dead, then what do we do with verses that use the word dead to refer to those who are physically dead?
Kind of renders the whole "jesus died for you" line meaningless, doesn't it?
2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
1 Cor. 15:4
He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.
Kind of renders the whole "jesus died for you" line meaningless, doesn't it?
2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
1 Cor. 15:4
He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.
Here is an answer from "Catholic Answers" by: Jason Evert
Maybe you understand him.
No one prays to dead saints, because those in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (Jas 5:16). Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Those in heaven are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1). They stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to him (Rv 5:8) and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession among members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Tm 2:1-4) and even commanded by him (Jn 15:17). Those in heaven have a perfected love, so how could they not intercede for us? Christ is the vine, and we are the branches; if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together as well. Can the eye say to the hand, "I need you not"? Neither are we to say we don’t need the prayers of our brothers and sisters (alive here or in heaven), because salvation is a family affair.
Link here --->What is the biblical reason Catholics pray to saints for intercession? | Catholic Answers
Maybe you understand him.
No one prays to dead saints, because those in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (Jas 5:16). Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Those in heaven are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1). They stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to him (Rv 5:8) and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession among members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Tm 2:1-4) and even commanded by him (Jn 15:17). Those in heaven have a perfected love, so how could they not intercede for us? Christ is the vine, and we are the branches; if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together as well. Can the eye say to the hand, "I need you not"? Neither are we to say we don’t need the prayers of our brothers and sisters (alive here or in heaven), because salvation is a family affair.
Link here --->What is the biblical reason Catholics pray to saints for intercession? | Catholic Answers
J
Was Jesus dead for three days?
Physical Death:
Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
Spiritual Death:
Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
You'll need more Catholic buddies to call on than CA.
Physical Death:
Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
Spiritual Death:
Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
You'll need more Catholic buddies to call on than CA.
You think that we pray to the corps?
How can a christian do not understand God exist in eternity with all the angels and saints. That they all live. That we live trough Christ our Lord, the second person of the trinity. The one who came from the Father. Do we live or are we dead with Him? To those we pray [to pray is to ask] to pray for us to the most High just like we do here in this life.
If you believe we 'worship' dead bodies you are mistaken.
We pray with live spirits in communion to God our Lord.
How can a christian do not understand God exist in eternity with all the angels and saints. That they all live. That we live trough Christ our Lord, the second person of the trinity. The one who came from the Father. Do we live or are we dead with Him? To those we pray [to pray is to ask] to pray for us to the most High just like we do here in this life.
If you believe we 'worship' dead bodies you are mistaken.
We pray with live spirits in communion to God our Lord.
J
You're missing the point Rock.
Scripture forbids us to pray to the dead.
Under the Covenants of old, it was punishable by death. (Be glad it's not under this one!)
Deuteronomy 18
9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.
This isn't strictly the spiritual dead (don't contact the people in hell!) but is referring to those who are physically dead.
How do we know that?
Four letters: S-A-U-L
Dude knew it was forbidden to contact the dead, but he did anyway.
1 Samuel 28:7-20
7 Then Saul said to his servants, r“Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at sEn-dor.”
8 So Saul tdisguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, u“Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.” 9 The woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done, lhow he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?” 10 But Saul swore to her by the Lord, v“As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” 11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” 13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” 14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped win a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and xGod has turned away from me and yanswers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” 16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me, for zthe Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 aBecause you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you band your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”
20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.
Good read
Does my concern make more sense now?
EDIT:
No, I'm not saying you're pulling up dead people in your living room. Rather, you are attempting to contact (ask to pray) those you are forbidden to seek prayer from.
The way Papists et al try to get around this is by obfuscating the usage of the terms "dead" and "alive" and make them into something other than what applies in the specific setting.
Scripture forbids us to pray to the dead.
Under the Covenants of old, it was punishable by death. (Be glad it's not under this one!)
Deuteronomy 18
9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.
This isn't strictly the spiritual dead (don't contact the people in hell!) but is referring to those who are physically dead.
How do we know that?
Four letters: S-A-U-L
Dude knew it was forbidden to contact the dead, but he did anyway.
1 Samuel 28:7-20
7 Then Saul said to his servants, r“Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at sEn-dor.”
8 So Saul tdisguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, u“Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.” 9 The woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done, lhow he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?” 10 But Saul swore to her by the Lord, v“As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” 11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” 13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” 14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped win a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and xGod has turned away from me and yanswers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” 16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me, for zthe Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 aBecause you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you band your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”
20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.
Good read
Does my concern make more sense now?
EDIT:
No, I'm not saying you're pulling up dead people in your living room. Rather, you are attempting to contact (ask to pray) those you are forbidden to seek prayer from.
The way Papists et al try to get around this is by obfuscating the usage of the terms "dead" and "alive" and make them into something other than what applies in the specific setting.