The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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This is how:
The passages cited previously that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:
1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
You're welcome :^)
The passages cited previously that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:
1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
You're welcome :^)
Any way I could get you to post verses instead of just references? At times I'd love to read the verses you reference but you reference so many that it's quite a task to go back and forth to the Word and look them up. You provide a wealth of information, but I enjoy a fraction of what you say because it's just too much work to follow through. Or maybe we could ask the forum to go to a more enhanced version with Scripture lookup capabilities. Thoughts?
Looks like some good points here. Has anyone ever taken you up on going through them to try to prove you wrong?
Looks like some good points here. Has anyone ever taken you up on going through them to try to prove you wrong?
I understand, because I have a Bible by my desktop and another by my laptop that I refer to dozens of times a day for replying on CC.
Thus, the Scripture lookup idea is excellent IMO.
Accumulating what I share has taken 50+ years and I add to our website daily, but I really do try not to dump full loads all at once in my replies, believe it or not. And I DO mean OUR website, which I invite everyone to use as a resource: <truthseekersfellowship.com>
I consider your saying that I "reference so many Scriptures that it is challenging to look them up" to be the best compliment I have received on CC. Thanks!
Thus, the Scripture lookup idea is excellent IMO.
Accumulating what I share has taken 50+ years and I add to our website daily, but I really do try not to dump full loads all at once in my replies, believe it or not. And I DO mean OUR website, which I invite everyone to use as a resource: <truthseekersfellowship.com>
I consider your saying that I "reference so many Scriptures that it is challenging to look them up" to be the best compliment I have received on CC. Thanks!
NKJ John 10:27-29:
Why is eternal security in or not in these verses?
Does eternal security have anything to do with Jesus' hearing, obedient, following men?
@GWH this is in response to your comprehensive post, but not just to you should anyone else read it and chime in.
I wonder how much anyone can truly make their case looking at Scripture in some depth vs. doing some simplistic proof-texting (not speaking about you @GWH) and parroting the interpretive tradition they've been taught.
- In the context of 10:24-26, Jesus is elaborating on the concept of believing Jesus is the Christ
- In context of the time, Jesus' sheep would be the Remnant of Israel
- To hear Jesus' voice is also to heed what He says. Hearing can trend into obeying.
- This may be a simple chiasm:
- My sheep hear My voice,
- and I know them
- and they follow Me
- My sheep hear My voice,
- The chiastic structure would tell us a few things:
- The hearing and following are parallel which shows hearing is also in effect following or explained in following
- It is the ones who hear & follow that Jesus knows, which is the central point here. IOW, He knows only those who hear and follow Him. This "knowing" is knowing personally - relationally - and not a simple knowledge about something.
- NKJ 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
- The point being made by referencing both these Scriptures is that the Lord knows those who are His because they obey Him (depart from unrighteousness).
- NKJ 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
- "Hear" can and does trend into obedience frequently in the Text
- "Follow" can also trend into obedience and is also used to speak about disciples.
- These verbs can be continuous presents - His sheep/men are continually hearing and following (obeying) Him
- Jesus gives His hearing, obedient, following men eternal life
- Jesus' hearing, obedient, following men will absolutely not perish into the age
- Not any man will (future) seize Jesus' hearing, obedient, following men from Jesus' hand
- Jesus' Father has given to Jesus His hearing, obedient, following men
- Jesus' Father is greater than / superior to all men (all men is plural and can mean all men collectively)
- No man is able to seize Jesus' hearing, obedient, following men from His Father's hand.
- Do include quite a description of who Jesus' men are.
- Do include assurances from Jesus about He and His Father providing protections for Jesus' hearing, obedient, following men
- Do not say that no man can walk away from Jesus
Why is eternal security in or not in these verses?
Does eternal security have anything to do with Jesus' hearing, obedient, following men?
@GWH this is in response to your comprehensive post, but not just to you should anyone else read it and chime in.
I wonder how much anyone can truly make their case looking at Scripture in some depth vs. doing some simplistic proof-texting (not speaking about you @GWH) and parroting the interpretive tradition they've been taught.
It was meant as a compliment but only because I think you display a good grasp of things. There are others who provide extensive lists of references whose interpretations are a mess IMO, and at times seem to be using the practice as a (baffle them with bs) ploy.
Even if I have 2 or more screens going, I still have to go through the work of going between screens and getting to the verses. It's a lot of work to respond to a lot of work.
Even if I have 2 or more screens going, I still have to go through the work of going between screens and getting to the verses. It's a lot of work to respond to a lot of work.
I agree and learned about the chiastic literary device, finding this online:
Many passages in the Bible exhibit chiastic structure. For example, Jesus’ words in Mark 2:27 are in the form of a chiasm: “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” Using the ABBA form, the words Sabbath and man are repeated in reverse order. Matthew 23:12 is another example.
A longer chiasm is found in Joel 3:17–21. This one has seven parts, diagrammed this way: ABCXCBA. Here is the passage:
“‘Then you will know that I, the Lord your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.
In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the Lord’s house
and will water the valley of acacias.
But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.
Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.
Shall I leave their innocent blood unavenged?
No, I will not.’
The Lord dwells in Zion!”
The ideas presented in this prophecy follow this arrangement:
A - God dwells in Zion (verse 17a)
B - Jerusalem is holy (verse 17b)
C - Foreign invaders are banished (verse 17c)
X - The blessings of the Kingdom (verse 18)
C - Foreign enemies are destroyed (verse 19)
B - Jerusalem and Judah are preserved (verses 20–21a)
A - God dwells in Zion (verse 21b)
Other passages that provide examples of chiasms include Ecclesiastes 11:3—12:2; Genesis 6—9; Amos 5:4–6a; Isaiah 1:21–26; and Joshua 1:5–9. Chiastic patterns in the Bible are just one more example of the richness and complexity of God’s inspired Word.
(I am pondering whether I might cite this in the website somewhere :^)
Many passages in the Bible exhibit chiastic structure. For example, Jesus’ words in Mark 2:27 are in the form of a chiasm: “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” Using the ABBA form, the words Sabbath and man are repeated in reverse order. Matthew 23:12 is another example.
A longer chiasm is found in Joel 3:17–21. This one has seven parts, diagrammed this way: ABCXCBA. Here is the passage:
“‘Then you will know that I, the Lord your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.
In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the Lord’s house
and will water the valley of acacias.
But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.
Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.
Shall I leave their innocent blood unavenged?
No, I will not.’
The Lord dwells in Zion!”
The ideas presented in this prophecy follow this arrangement:
A - God dwells in Zion (verse 17a)
B - Jerusalem is holy (verse 17b)
C - Foreign invaders are banished (verse 17c)
X - The blessings of the Kingdom (verse 18)
C - Foreign enemies are destroyed (verse 19)
B - Jerusalem and Judah are preserved (verses 20–21a)
A - God dwells in Zion (verse 21b)
Other passages that provide examples of chiasms include Ecclesiastes 11:3—12:2; Genesis 6—9; Amos 5:4–6a; Isaiah 1:21–26; and Joshua 1:5–9. Chiastic patterns in the Bible are just one more example of the richness and complexity of God’s inspired Word.
(I am pondering whether I might cite this in the website somewhere :^)
A great brief yet concise teaching.
Very often the passage referenced there are used to insist we can lose salvation. Or,that they're referring to those who were not truly genuine believers.
I love how all that is corrected in those few minutes.
Romans 8
38. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Very often the passage referenced there are used to insist we can lose salvation. Or,that they're referring to those who were not truly genuine believers.
I love how all that is corrected in those few minutes.
Romans 8
38. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thanks.
Neither C nor A but apparently liked the FG interpretation.
Did you watch the video?
Wilkin and his Grace Evangelical Society is staunchly Free Grace Dispensationalism (last I knew and by the video remains).
I think I saw you elsewhere commenting on some of your background knowing of or having had exposure to RBThieme but mainly having time listening to or reading another.
Were you taught things like the perseverance you have on your site, or did such come about from your own studies?
Neither C nor A but apparently liked the FG interpretation.
Did you watch the video?
Wilkin and his Grace Evangelical Society is staunchly Free Grace Dispensationalism (last I knew and by the video remains).
I think I saw you elsewhere commenting on some of your background knowing of or having had exposure to RBThieme but mainly having time listening to or reading another.
Were you taught things like the perseverance you have on your site, or did such come about from your own studies?
Above in bold.
The loss of salvation crowd will overlook this. They say they can walk away. They can "jump" out of the Lord Jesus Christs hand....Like they are not part of the CREATION.
They like to call themselves His Sheep. But His sheep NEVER perish. An oxymoron to the utmost.
We CANNOT call ourselves His sheep if we think we can perish.
The loss of salvation crowd will overlook this. They say they can walk away. They can "jump" out of the Lord Jesus Christs hand....Like they are not part of the CREATION.
They like to call themselves His Sheep. But His sheep NEVER perish. An oxymoron to the utmost.
We CANNOT call ourselves His sheep if we think we can perish.
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Raised as a OSAS Baptist, I was chagrined to learn that my favorite HS senior English teacher had been a Christian minister but was now "agnostic" and a year later (1968) in college when a friend became an atheist, so I asked my parents for a modern English Bible for Christmas and they gave me a NEB that was recently published, which I read through taking notes in the margins and repeated that study in the TEV, NIV and ASB Bibles through the years--thusly I learned from my own studies.
My church was not dogmatic about OSAS, and my dad was an engineer who when I asked him why he was a Christian said simply, "because it is the best belief"--hence the title of the first lesson on our website, which I created with the help of my son Paul in 2005. This is why I take a logical and scientific or systematic approach to interpreting Scripture, which I find the apostle Paul advocates.
Unless Bob Wilkin is my age, I think I probably learned what is on the video before he did, so I have not watched it yet.
Re RBT, yes I replied on CC with info learned from him three times recently regarding how God answers prayer, spiritual breathing and that the Greek precludes viewing Peter as the foundation of the church.
My church was not dogmatic about OSAS, and my dad was an engineer who when I asked him why he was a Christian said simply, "because it is the best belief"--hence the title of the first lesson on our website, which I created with the help of my son Paul in 2005. This is why I take a logical and scientific or systematic approach to interpreting Scripture, which I find the apostle Paul advocates.
Unless Bob Wilkin is my age, I think I probably learned what is on the video before he did, so I have not watched it yet.
Re RBT, yes I replied on CC with info learned from him three times recently regarding how God answers prayer, spiritual breathing and that the Greek precludes viewing Peter as the foundation of the church.