The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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You use language like "spiritual dynamics" that RBT uses. Maybe coincidence but most of the time I can spot someone who has been taught by him by some phrases he used.
Interesting how some of us came to a point of walking out of the traditions and just studied the Text.
I'm familiar with Wilkin and some who became involved in his group. Within the first minute of the video, I was done, but I watched all of it. I'm sure you know the interpretive patterns of these traditions. They're all repetitive in disagreement with one another. I found it better to be a free agent and agree or disagree with anyone based upon a read or some exegetical effort in the Text. It seems that's where you went also.
Interesting how some of us came to a point of walking out of the traditions and just studied the Text.
I'm familiar with Wilkin and some who became involved in his group. Within the first minute of the video, I was done, but I watched all of it. I'm sure you know the interpretive patterns of these traditions. They're all repetitive in disagreement with one another. I found it better to be a free agent and agree or disagree with anyone based upon a read or some exegetical effort in the Text. It seems that's where you went also.
I understand the thinking, but the language is something separating us from God's love and not us separating.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 (command) keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude 1:20-21 NKJ)
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 (command) keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude 1:20-21 NKJ)
Yes I did. Based upon my disappointment that my church education left me unprepared to defend my faith, I felt my calling was to do what I could to help others also become better apologetes so they would not fail to persevere (like my teacher and friend).
Maybe I did learn the term spiritual dynamics from RBT. Did he also teach that in EPH 1 what is predestined is God's plan to save all who repent and become "in Christ"?
Being a free agent also means being a black sheep or lone wolf (saying this is risky) and not being on the same wavelength as those who are content with pastors who entertain more than teach and with home fellowship or prayer groups rather than wanting Sunday School to do systematic Bible study--which is what I think would be the solution to my perceived problem, but I have had limited success leading folks to that water, much less getting them to drink it.
(Some on CC seem to think it is kool-aid :^)
Maybe I did learn the term spiritual dynamics from RBT. Did he also teach that in EPH 1 what is predestined is God's plan to save all who repent and become "in Christ"?
Being a free agent also means being a black sheep or lone wolf (saying this is risky) and not being on the same wavelength as those who are content with pastors who entertain more than teach and with home fellowship or prayer groups rather than wanting Sunday School to do systematic Bible study--which is what I think would be the solution to my perceived problem, but I have had limited success leading folks to that water, much less getting them to drink it.
(Some on CC seem to think it is kool-aid :^)
Isn't it obvious to you that even some who read that someone can fall away does not mean they think that all will?
There are interpretive choices being made one of which says the warnings and commands in the NC have real meaning and are not just for effect.
Among those who see the warnings and commands as real there are some who know that apart from Grace and what God has done, is doing, and will do, there is no way for a Christian to reach the goal of glorification, let alone having such a goal set before them as a gift.
When we read of the elders casting their crowns at His feet in Rev4, do you think that men cannot know and revel in the knowledge and understanding of how they came to have crowns to cast?
We have become way too enamored with our cliquish denominational camps.
There are interpretive choices being made one of which says the warnings and commands in the NC have real meaning and are not just for effect.
Among those who see the warnings and commands as real there are some who know that apart from Grace and what God has done, is doing, and will do, there is no way for a Christian to reach the goal of glorification, let alone having such a goal set before them as a gift.
When we read of the elders casting their crowns at His feet in Rev4, do you think that men cannot know and revel in the knowledge and understanding of how they came to have crowns to cast?
We have become way too enamored with our cliquish denominational camps.
Was reading it when you & @PaulThomson were getting started. Decided to not jump in because for one reason I'd want to stay focused and not be moving to other threads where there is so much of whatever it is that's there.
I think you mean because Cameron was taking up your time? :^)
BTW, you might be interested to know that I know how Augustine preserved free will for the elect although not love for the non-elect.
He said God foreknows what choices souls will make and presented the elect with choices that they would freely choose to believe and become saved. Unfortunately, God did not do that for everyone, but Calvin did not even teach volition.
BTW, you might be interested to know that I know how Augustine preserved free will for the elect although not love for the non-elect.
He said God foreknows what choices souls will make and presented the elect with choices that they would freely choose to believe and become saved. Unfortunately, God did not do that for everyone, but Calvin did not even teach volition.