The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[PaulThomson]

Thankfully, the believer is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith never waivered. Christ's faith is the righteousness of God revealed and it is imputed to those that believe.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Faith can be mixed with doubt.


Mar 9:24
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mar 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

 

[Magenta]

Do you believe being a "natural man" is binary or on a spectrum? Can a Christian, especially a newly converted one, be addicted to their sin but understand, on a spiritual level, the need to forsake it? Can someone be a spiritual man/woman who struggles from the default settings of being a natural man/woman? I am reading this thread and I'm asking myself question after question because I want to challenge and test what I believe... sorry if this feels like an interrogation.

Well, the flesh profits nothing, it is opposed to the spiritual things of God and can neither receive them nor comprehend them, so obviously something has to change first, and that is to become the spiritual man, which is not of our doing, despite what some claim. We are DEAD in our trespasses and sins until God makes us alive in Christ and circumcises our hearts so we may love Him... drawing us with loving kindness. Some say this makes God an unjust tyrannical monster, and that He is unfair to reveal Himself in any way different from one person to the next, and yet front to back the Bible is full of such instances. God is a personal God and He is quite capable of meeting people wherever they are at. Those given to Jesus DO come to Jesus, and He loses none of those who come. One is either born again or they are not.

 

[PaulThomson]

I wonder how we can measure faith in terms of percentages. Are you saying that to be saved, we need faith which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness? How would you know if your faith was 49% (unsaved) or 51% (saved)? Do you have any bible passages that give even the slightest hint of measuring faith in percentage terms?

Or have I somehow totally misunderstood what you meant? If so, I apologise.

PaulThomson said:
So then, saving faith is genuine faith, which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness, such that one follows His guidance, even if tentatively at first.

Mar 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mar 9:24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

 

[Magenta]

John 1:11-13 ~ He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God

 

[Magenta]

John 3 verse 6, Romans 8 verse 7, Galatians 5 verse 17, 2 Timothy 3 verse 13, Romans 3 verse 18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[PaulThomson]

Isn't "investigate" interpretive? I know we've dealt with this in the past, but it's been a while. As I recall the discussion was re: coming paralleling believing:

"It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn. 6:45 NKJ)

• Doesn't it seem the investigation was prior to the coming? If it was just "heard" it might be weaker, but "learned" seems a stronger precursor to come. Also, the quote from Isaiah uses an adjective "learned [men] of God" (God's learned [men]) and in Isaiah it speaks of "your sons".

I'll have to look more intently once again at this investigation concept. I'm not fully persuaded.

The giving men to Jesus is more on my mind but this is certainly a part of it.



Granted we can play-act even with Genuine Faith, but is this what Paul is speaking of in Timothy, or is he simply saying there is Genuine and thus not genuine Faith?

Also, did you ever answer me re: Luke8:13 - re: Genuine Faith, what is "believe for a time...and fall away"?

During Jesus' ministry the Father was drawing people to Jesus by performing miracles and giving Jesus words to speak. But After Jesus was crucified, He began drawing all men to Himself by words and actions He was doing and speaking through His disciples. The Father is no longer drawing people to Jesus. he has give all to the Son since His resurrection.

Those who had heard and learned from the Father we attracted to Jesus by the words the Father was giving to Jesus and through the miracles, confirming what they had learned from the Father through the law and prophets. Thos who did not believe in Jesus were also attracted to Him by the words the Father was giving to Jesus and through the miracles, which piqued their curiosity. and drew them to Him to observe Him more closely. Those who hated Jesus were also attracted to Him by the words the Father was giving to Jesus and through the miracles, which irked them and offended them and compelled them to come to Him to oppose Him.

Believe enough to act commensurate with what is believed for a time (>50%); and then not believing enough to act commensurate with what was previously believed (<50%).

 

[HeIsHere]

Thankfully, the believer is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith never waivered. Christ's faith is the righteousness of God revealed and it is imputed to those that believe.

Exactly, how can one receive a gift if one doubts there is a gift to be received.

 

[Smoke]

I have a hypothetical question. It's a bit strange and I'm sorry if it offends anyone (I do not intend to do this), but the hypothetical question is designed to test your logic/belief system.

Let's say I was alive during the time of Jesus. I just witnessed Peter deny Jesus for the third time. I run to him and stab him in the throat, murdering him. We know that Peter felt guilty and eventually repented and did a great many amazing works after he denied Christ.

My question, do you believe Peter would have been saved or not considering I robbed him of repenting/turning his heart back over to Christ by murdering him immediately after his third denial? Did he lose his salvation after each denial (and not repenting and turning his heart back over to Jesus)?

 

[studier]

Believe enough to act commensurate with what is believed for a time (>50%); and then not believing enough to act commensurate with what was previously believed (<50%).

Non-abiding belief, so not genuine belief?

 

[Magenta]

I have a hypothetical question. It's a bit strange and I'm sorry if it offends anyone (I do not intend to do this), but the hypothetical question is designed to test your logic/belief system.

Let's say I was alive during the time of Jesus. I just witnessed Peter deny Jesus for the third time. I run to him and stab him in the throat, murdering him. We know that Peter felt guilty and eventually repented and did a great many amazing works after he denied Christ.

My question, do you believe Peter would have been saved or not considering I robbed him of repenting/turning his heart back over to Christ by murdering him immediately after his third denial? Did he lose his salvation after each denial (and not repenting and turning his heart back over to Jesus)?

Peter believed Who Jesus was... and since Jesus had not yet been crucified, would they not still be under the OC?

Matthew 16 verses 15-17 ~ What about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.
Simon Peter also said, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of
eternal life. We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.” John 6:68-69

Mark 8:29
“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.”

Luke 9:20
“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “The Christ of God.”

John 20:31
But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and
that by believing you may have life in His name. <= Peter believed and more than that =

1 John 4:15
If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,
and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him.

Jesus also said, "That is why I told you that you would die in your sins.
For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Do you think that applies to Peter because he acted in fear before Jesus' crucifixion and subsequent resurrection?

 

[studier]

Can you place your trust in a friend when you do not trust them?

I can pretend to trust them, which is the point.

 

[GWH]

Faith is either correctly placed or it is not.

A person cannot place a "false faith" in Jesus.
That just does not make sense.

Well, in Matt. 7:21-23 Jesus indicated the possibility of having a false faith in Him and in John 8 Jesus condemned the Pharisees for having a false faith in Satan.

 

[GWH]

Aren't you two negating what Paul says to Timothy re: genuine Faith (1Tim1:5; 2Tim1:5)? He literally uses a word that means genuine - without pretense - without play-acting. Why would he use such an adjective if it were not meaningful? If his use is meaningful, then it is not redundant.

So, it doesn't seem to me to be just about the object of Genuine Faith:

• We genuinely believe in Jesus Christ
  • Which begins weak and grows strong
• Or we pretend to believe in Jesus Christ
• Or we do not believe in Jesus Christ

No I don’t negate what Paul said in those verses. Faith can be both genuine and sincere.

 

[HeIsHere]

I can pretend to trust them, which is the point.

I understand this, you are taking it as an outside observer.

I am speaking to the actual person.. the person himself/herself at some point will have to trust or not trust.

Anyway if I can come back with a better explanation I will.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus' Words in John 8 verses 23b plus 24b ~ Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes for a strong fellowship/walk with God, this is not to maintain justification.

Martin Luther said that faith was not alone.

What do you think Martin Luther was saying?

What is a dead faith?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Martin Luther said that faith was not alone.

What do you think Martin Luther was saying?

What is a dead faith?

mere belief. Lifeless. It never saved anyone..

 

[Inquisitor]

mere belief. Lifeless. It never saved anyone..

So then, what would a living faith be?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So then, what would a living faith be?

An assurance, a trust, Read romans 4. God tells us about abrahams faith

 

[Inquisitor]

An assurance, a trust, Read romans 4. God tells us about abrahams faith

Is there a relationship between faith and the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

Would a dead faith be one that bears no fruit?