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It was God's will for a person's wife to be raped is that what you are saying?
Here's some basic concepts which we would all benefit of learning:
a) God is good
b) God is love
c) God is our loving heavenly Father, who as Jesus said, is far more good than our earthly father/mother.
Now try telling us that our good loving God desires his children to be sick, bankrupt, divorced, their wife raped, house burnt down, and persecuted.
Here's some basic concepts which we would all benefit of learning:
a) God is good
b) God is love
c) God is our loving heavenly Father, who as Jesus said, is far more good than our earthly father/mother.
Now try telling us that our good loving God desires his children to be sick, bankrupt, divorced, their wife raped, house burnt down, and persecuted.
R
Phil,
I cannot answer what the bible does not. I can only provide what the bible says. My only position is that if the bible says it and it's not happening, then we should see to know why. Now let me ask you this question, the bible says that it is God's will that all come to repentance, but yet this is not happening and we know it will not happen. Should we start saying that it is not God's will that all come to repentance?
Like I said in previous posts, what's happening on the outside should not be the driving force of biblical interpretation. We should interpret the bible on what it says. I am an advocate on everything the bible has to say. I believe in doing so, the outside will be impacted. When you interpret what the outside (i.e. "...these people are not prospering"), you dismiss what the bible does say and it creates unbelief on your part.
Since I am working on two long posts, I am refraining from responding to some of the questions you've asked me since they will be answered in those posts.
RJ
I cannot answer what the bible does not. I can only provide what the bible says. My only position is that if the bible says it and it's not happening, then we should see to know why. Now let me ask you this question, the bible says that it is God's will that all come to repentance, but yet this is not happening and we know it will not happen. Should we start saying that it is not God's will that all come to repentance?
Like I said in previous posts, what's happening on the outside should not be the driving force of biblical interpretation. We should interpret the bible on what it says. I am an advocate on everything the bible has to say. I believe in doing so, the outside will be impacted. When you interpret what the outside (i.e. "...these people are not prospering"), you dismiss what the bible does say and it creates unbelief on your part.
Since I am working on two long posts, I am refraining from responding to some of the questions you've asked me since they will be answered in those posts.
RJ
No, Thats not what i meant Mahogony snail, i was asking Rosinski since God will believers to be prosperous (his statement) then why does this happen. now, i Know God desires what you have staed above mahogony, but we know why it does not.
What i was getting at is, Rosisnky has stated we should be seeking why these people being persucated are not prospering. so why arent they? is it because they have not got a good attitude towards God? is the spritual life not as good as it should be?
so Mahogony i can see how you came to your conclusion as i maybe didnt state clearly what i mean't.
So Mahogony maybe you can tell me why are children get sick, we go bankrupt, divorced, wives raped, houses burnt down and other mistreatments of an evil kind.. somehow the prosperity theology does not ring true.
I am talking about belivers of course!
What i was getting at is, Rosisnky has stated we should be seeking why these people being persucated are not prospering. so why arent they? is it because they have not got a good attitude towards God? is the spritual life not as good as it should be?
so Mahogony i can see how you came to your conclusion as i maybe didnt state clearly what i mean't.
So Mahogony maybe you can tell me why are children get sick, we go bankrupt, divorced, wives raped, houses burnt down and other mistreatments of an evil kind.. somehow the prosperity theology does not ring true.
I am talking about belivers of course!
Couldnt have said it better myself. What more could we possibly ask for. A bigger house to clean?? A newer kitchen (to what pupose if the old one functions) shinny buttons... stop pursuing your shinny buttons and rest in the fullness of the Lord. Edify one another. If you are financially Blessed THANK GOD and GIVE GIVE GIVE. Its not wrong to be financially blessed, I just think its wrong to think it our RIGHT as Christians... What about the ones who arent blessed? Did they do something wrong, you figure? Maybe they are just bad Christians and dont deserve it??? Cause if its true and the faithful ask and dont receive, what are we to make of that?
sorry Phil I should have read your and Rosinskys post more carefully .
Some take prosperity teaching too far and say silly things like "God can't use a poor christian".
Why all the bad?
Well there's satan, there's us, there's other sinful people. Living in the world is not free from troubles. God may allow those things to happen, can it be said that it's God's will? God is often the only source of comfort and hope.
It could be that a person is suffering because of their own wrong decisions. I agree that the troubles a person has does not necessarily mean something is wrong with their spiritual life. But in many cases trouble is self inflicted. Eating a pack of donuts a day for example and we wonder why we sick. Or constantly taking out loan after loan and credit card debt piling high and we wonder why we are poor. Can't attribute everything to God's will.
Some take prosperity teaching too far and say silly things like "God can't use a poor christian".
Why all the bad?
Well there's satan, there's us, there's other sinful people. Living in the world is not free from troubles. God may allow those things to happen, can it be said that it's God's will? God is often the only source of comfort and hope.
It could be that a person is suffering because of their own wrong decisions. I agree that the troubles a person has does not necessarily mean something is wrong with their spiritual life. But in many cases trouble is self inflicted. Eating a pack of donuts a day for example and we wonder why we sick. Or constantly taking out loan after loan and credit card debt piling high and we wonder why we are poor. Can't attribute everything to God's will.
R
No, I don't. I don't proclaim to be teaching a different version theology as well. But let me explain what I mean. So far, the interpretation that the theology of prosperity is health and wealth is something I find from people who are against the theology. I cannot find a quote from anyone who is in favor of the theology of prosperity to preach one that is God's will for you to be wealthy. I believe if anyone is preaching that the theology of prosperity is about material wealth, then this person is teaching a false doctrine.
Now you have me even more confused about what you are saying Rosinski.
In the one hand you don't go along with Mainstream Health and wealth/Prosperity movement, but on the other you dont believ in a different theology than they? and you managed to say all that in on breath!
Which is your answer?
Phil
In the one hand you don't go along with Mainstream Health and wealth/Prosperity movement, but on the other you dont believ in a different theology than they? and you managed to say all that in on breath!
Which is your answer?
Phil
On the flipside there's also a "spiritual prosperity" movement that is basically a spiritualised version of the materialistic prosperity doctrine. The spiritual prosperity doctrine is all about how to get more spiritual power, spritual gifts and all this. I believe the Todd Bentley crowd fall into this category, seeking spiritual experiences.
R
LOL, OK... I'll say this... if the prosperity theology is the belief that God wants all of his children to become wealthy? Then I will be one of the many to say the prosperity theology is heresy. However, this notion that it means wealth is only a version that those who oppose to the "the theology prosperity" claims it to be.
Did this clarify what I am saying?
Did this clarify what I am saying?
R
For example:
Mr. Joe (Agrees with Theology Prosperity): The prosperity theology is the belief that God wants you to be be prosperous in all that you do.
Mr. Jack (Disagrees with Theology Prosperity): The prosperity theology is the belief that God wants you to be wealthy.
I am saying I agree with Joe!
Can you provide quotes from those who believe in the prosperity theology that they say (one way or another) that it is the belief that God wants his children to be wealthy?
I am saying that if anyone preaches that God wants all of his children to be wealthy, he is preaching heresy and this is NOT the prosperity gospel.
Mr. Joe (Agrees with Theology Prosperity): The prosperity theology is the belief that God wants you to be be prosperous in all that you do.
Mr. Jack (Disagrees with Theology Prosperity): The prosperity theology is the belief that God wants you to be wealthy.
I am saying I agree with Joe!
Can you provide quotes from those who believe in the prosperity theology that they say (one way or another) that it is the belief that God wants his children to be wealthy?
I am saying that if anyone preaches that God wants all of his children to be wealthy, he is preaching heresy and this is NOT the prosperity gospel.
Bentley and co. is basically an offshoot of the Toronto blessing. Probably one step further than that.
spiritual dynamics, portals, open visions, dreams, angelic visitations, translations/transportations (form astral projection?) and all this, and the overall "weirdness" factor to it all. Well the Gospel is preached in there somewhere I'm sure too, but doesn't seem to be the focus.
I don't think they seek after money, but I think they seek after spiritual experiences first and foremost. Or rather, they seek God in order to gain spiritual experiences. Nothing wrong with spiritual experiences, I guess I'd be myself a charismatic or pentecostal according to the definition. But I found this website's opinion to be interesting, note the bit about "financial angels" , a spiritualised version of the materialistic prosperity gospel in my opinion.
http://www.findingtruthmatters.org/articles/charismania/
spiritual dynamics, portals, open visions, dreams, angelic visitations, translations/transportations (form astral projection?) and all this, and the overall "weirdness" factor to it all. Well the Gospel is preached in there somewhere I'm sure too, but doesn't seem to be the focus.
I don't think they seek after money, but I think they seek after spiritual experiences first and foremost. Or rather, they seek God in order to gain spiritual experiences. Nothing wrong with spiritual experiences, I guess I'd be myself a charismatic or pentecostal according to the definition. But I found this website's opinion to be interesting, note the bit about "financial angels" , a spiritualised version of the materialistic prosperity gospel in my opinion.
http://www.findingtruthmatters.org/articles/charismania/
Lol ok, Its is an amazement to me and it shows How graceful God is that he choses to save some... however we are onto a different subject if i explain that. of course that does not mean he chooses to condemn others, we do that by our own totally depraved nature.
anyhow the Apostle Paul explains that better than me.
So i would say your argument really does not stand.
Hope that clears that.
anyhow the Apostle Paul explains that better than me.
So i would say your argument really does not stand.
Hope that clears that.
A
Ok, you keep emphasizing the importance of looking at scripture, but then you talk about the above as if it were scripture. Seriously, just answer me this: where is the above in the Bible???? You have yet to produce one verse that firmly supports that God wants us to be successful in all in worldy aspects of one's life. I mean, I know the reason why you haven't produced such a verse because I've read the Bible cover to cover and know that such a verse doesn't exist. Does that bother you? I'm going to echo other posters and say, why are we even talking about what the Prosperty Gospel teaches. Shouldn't we just be talking about what the Gospel teaches????
Furthermore, there's a difference between God's will and what God will use his power to insure will come to pass. In other words, theres's a difference between something happening because it's God's will and something that God lets happen. In other words, the status quo is not necessarily God's will.
But, do I believe that if God's will was always done that one would be sucessful in every aspect of their life? Absolutely not!!!! There are a few reasons why: First and most obvious, because the Bible does not teach that. Secondly, I belive that if God's will was done in everyone's life, then one's spirituality woud be the only aspect of one's life where everyone would always experience sucess. See, my parents have been Christians for about 40 years. In those years they've seen a lot of Christians fall away. The overwhelming majority of them have fallen away because of too much money or adultery (or some combination of the two. There's lots of beautiful young women who are willing to have affairs with rich, middle aged men). This same trend can be seen in both in the Bible and in history. Look at the Isrealities. When they were slaves or wondering in the dessert, they cried out to God. When they were living in the Promised Land and everything was good, they fell away from God. It's quite simple: if we have no needs, we forget that we need God. So why would God want that for us??? I mean, how many of us pray "God, don't let me get rich enough to fall away from you." But we probably should.
My cousin isn't a Christian but he's been very sucessful in every aspect of his life: he went to two of the most respected universities in Canada (Queen's and McGill, for those of you who live here), he's very good looking, he's always had lots and lots of friends, he started an export company and is raking in the bucks, his beautiful wife is an heiress and they have a great marriage. In the eyes of the world, his life is pretty much perfect. Guess how much hope I have that he's going to become a Christian?? I mean I pray for him, but I'm not optimistic. Trying to convince him that he needs God will be difficult when he's done so well on his own.
Now, you may say "Yes, but if he were a Chrsitian than he would think that all those blessings came from God." In theory, yes, and I do know a lot of people who credit their sucess in life to God (my parents, for example) but the reality is that many fall away when they are dong well in the eyes of the world.
Furthermore, there's a difference between God's will and what God will use his power to insure will come to pass. In other words, theres's a difference between something happening because it's God's will and something that God lets happen. In other words, the status quo is not necessarily God's will.
But, do I believe that if God's will was always done that one would be sucessful in every aspect of their life? Absolutely not!!!! There are a few reasons why: First and most obvious, because the Bible does not teach that. Secondly, I belive that if God's will was done in everyone's life, then one's spirituality woud be the only aspect of one's life where everyone would always experience sucess. See, my parents have been Christians for about 40 years. In those years they've seen a lot of Christians fall away. The overwhelming majority of them have fallen away because of too much money or adultery (or some combination of the two. There's lots of beautiful young women who are willing to have affairs with rich, middle aged men). This same trend can be seen in both in the Bible and in history. Look at the Isrealities. When they were slaves or wondering in the dessert, they cried out to God. When they were living in the Promised Land and everything was good, they fell away from God. It's quite simple: if we have no needs, we forget that we need God. So why would God want that for us??? I mean, how many of us pray "God, don't let me get rich enough to fall away from you." But we probably should.
My cousin isn't a Christian but he's been very sucessful in every aspect of his life: he went to two of the most respected universities in Canada (Queen's and McGill, for those of you who live here), he's very good looking, he's always had lots and lots of friends, he started an export company and is raking in the bucks, his beautiful wife is an heiress and they have a great marriage. In the eyes of the world, his life is pretty much perfect. Guess how much hope I have that he's going to become a Christian?? I mean I pray for him, but I'm not optimistic. Trying to convince him that he needs God will be difficult when he's done so well on his own.
Now, you may say "Yes, but if he were a Chrsitian than he would think that all those blessings came from God." In theory, yes, and I do know a lot of people who credit their sucess in life to God (my parents, for example) but the reality is that many fall away when they are dong well in the eyes of the world.
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