The Prosperity Theology or Prosperity Gospel

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

You still haven't answered how scarcity fits into all this. One cannot be sucessful in the eyes of the world without it being at the expense of others. Like, hypothetically speaking, if everyone in the world was a good Christian, and the Prosperty Gospel was true... what would that look like? Would we all be rich? I'm not rich by Canadian standards, but the sad reality is that the world cannot support everyone on earth living my Canadian lifestyle, modest thogh it is. There isn't enough resources and there isn't enough land. Same in other areas. If I were to be academically sucessful, well that would involve me getting into university programs that are hard to get into. A friend of mine did a PhD at Yale, but how many people did he have to beat out to get into that program?

But all that aside, if God did insure that we were all sucessful all the time in every area, a lot more of us would fall away from God.

You said somewhere on this thread that you didn't know if Jesus was rich. Tell me what Luke 9:58 means to you "Jesus replied, 'Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.'"

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

I will, but right now I would like you to respond to those scriptures since no one has yet and since I have been accused of providing no basis for my belief.

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

It's like this: when Tony Campolo (a well known Christian author and Bible college prof) is approached by a student who tells him he's suddenly having all kinds of doubts about scripture, his standard reply is "How long have you been having sex with your girlfriend?" He knows he's not going to throw apologetics at them if they don't want Christianity to be true because they want to do what is forbidden by scripture without feeling guilty. I'm not saying you're doing anything of the sort, I'm just saying when someone wants something to be true or not true for personal reasons rather than seeking the turth, there's no point in trying to convince them otherwise.

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

Rosinsky said:

I did, it's obvious they're not about worldly sucess. How many Biblical scholars do you know who can support your interpretation of those verses?

And you still haven't told us what research you've done on the Prosperty Gospel.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Ancilla said:

You did? Where? Care to explain the obvious? And I object to your terms of "wordly success." I have never had an emphasis on wordly success here.

I want you to go into each one of them and tell me how they not support my claim that it is the will of God for the believer to prosper in all that He does.

The verse clearly says the righteous shall prosper in all that he does.

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

Baptistrw said:

Verses that support this view are, but not limited to, the following:

John 10:10 - The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.

Rich and satisfying life does not mean materially.

3 John 1:2 - Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit.

This is a bad example because of it's location... in the greeting of a letter sent to a specific person with a specific need, basing theology on the intro and closing of an epistle is horrible hermeneutics, I'm probably guessing you have no formal Bible training because that's a rookie mistake.

Luke 6:38 - Give, and you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full—pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, running over, and poured into your lap. The amount you give will determine the amount you get back.”

It is a fixed principle in life that we reap according to our sowing, that our actions react upon us, that the same measure we use to others is measured back to us. If we sow material things we reap spiritual treasures of inestimable value. It is also true that what we keep we lose, and what we give we have.

So as you can see none of those passages teach the prosperity gospel. Prosperity does not mean financially. If the apostles never preached a gospel of health and wealth and Jesus never taught it, it's false. And it is.

Shouldn't this have settle the matter?

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

Rosinsky said:

Other than spiritual, all those things you mentioned are worldy. They all have to do with things are human nature wants. I mean, if you to ask a non-Christian what they thought a sucessful life would look like, would they not say health, money, good academics/career, and satisfying relationships? Where in Psalm 1:3 does it say that God will see to it that we will suceed in those areas of our life??? Especially when we saw the effect that sucess and prosperty had on people in the Bible. Solomon was sucessful in every area of his life, and look how he ended up spiritually.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Ancilla said:

I refuted his claim here: http://www.christianchat.com/showpost.php?p=31700&postcount=23

And I am still waiting for you to provide me with your explanation of Psalms 1 as well as the other scriptures I provided. I am sorry but simply stating only apply to spiritual things does not stand here.

It says, the righteous shall prosper in all that he does.

juspekatzus · Mar 29, 2009

juspekatzus said:

God made all things[ gold ,silver, crystal, etc,] for our pleasure, not greed. its ok to have nice things, we jus shouldn't worship them .seek ye the kingdom of God [winning the lost]first then all these things will be added unto you

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

Ok, let's say Psalm 1 is saying what you want it to say. I'm not even going to ask you to find a scholar who will back up your view because you'll probably only ignore me or tell me you don't care what Biblical scholars say. My question is this: can you find a verse like that in the New Testament? There's are things in the New Testament that contradict the Old Testament and we go with the former because we're Christians not Jews. But we all know what happend in the Jews in the Old Testament when they were prosperous, did it bring them closer to God? My last question, how do you square that with righteous people who do not sucessed in every area of their life? Does that mean they're not righteous?

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

Rosinsky said:

Have you never heard of a seminary or Bible college?????? That's a place where people study the Bible in an academic way and are able to put it in a historical and literary context where they are able to better understand what the writer was trying to communicate when they wrote scripture.

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

I've looked over this thread again and I've you've failed to comment on scripture that shows the Prosperty Gospel is not true. You just keep wanting to bring everything back to John 10 and 3 John 1 and Psalm 1. You're accusing others of ignoring scipture but when we show you other scripture you just seem to be ignoring it. Instead of taking a hard look at the scripture Roaring Kitten quoted for you, you just tell him that it's not relavent. The Baptistw quotes a whole bunch of good scripture for you and I can't find where you responded to that. Then I asked you what Luke 9:58 means to you and if I'm not mistaken you haven't done that either. I also asked you what research you've done on the Prosperty Gospel* and you didn't answer that question either. When we bring up scripture you just keep wanting to bring it back to John 10, Psalm 1 etc. Well then, if that's what you want so much, just find yourself a Bible that only those verses. I'm not saying you should ignore those verses, I'm saying you shouldn't ignore other verses that keep those verses in perspective. God gave us a whole Bible, not just a few verses. It's human nature to want to put verses in extremes. What James said about faith with deeds was really a thorn in the side of Martin Luther because he saw it used by people who wanted to say that one must work their way to Heaven. But, if we didn't have that verse than so many of us would think that we can just have faith without actually living our faith and that God's ok with that. Then there are verses like "eye for an eye" that we really can't understand unless we put it in historial context. This is why we have Biblical scholars.

Anyway, the point is this: at first it looked like this thread was about you wanting to know what everyone thought of Prosperty Theology, but it's getting more and more evident that you want this Property Theology to be true despite scripture to the contrary. There's no way we can share truth with you if you're determind not to listen.

In 2003 I went to the Urbana msisions conference at the University of Illinois. A guy** said that there was a time when the USA's biggest Christian export was the Prosperty Gospel and we will be judged accordingly. So what I'm saying is, believe whatever you want, just remember you have to justify what you believe to God.

*Like I said this is a real term. If you say you believe in Prosperty Theology but then you're definition differs from the mainstream, you're bound to confuse Christians who are already familiar with that term.

**I can't remember who he was, but this conference is a big, big deal. They pray pretty hard about who they choose to speak to 20,000 young people, most of them college students.

Moviefan2k4 · Mar 29, 2009

I'm no expert on this issue, but I personally believe that God wants all of His children to prosper in every way imaginable. However, whether they do so or not is often determined by their faith, and what they're willing to do in attaining their goals. Now, God obviously doesn't ask or command His children to do despicable or dishonorable things in this regard, but He does say that honest workers deserve their pay. Jesus often spoke in parables about landowners and taskmasters who were generous to their hired hands, using such stories to illustrate different points.

I think that one of the bigger mistakes people often fall into is accepting the popular mentality which says "Money is the root of all evil." The Bible does not say that; the verse actually reads as "The love of money is a root for all kinds of evil." That's quite a different setup right there. It shows that evil has many kinds, each kind has many roots, and financial greed is only one of them. People often place far too much emphasis on the money itself, instead of focusing on what it's being used for.

God does want His children to prosper in every way, so that they can be a blessing to others in return. How do you bless someone with something you don't have? Scripture says very clearly that God wants us to be "wealthy in every way", so that His blessings for us can be passed on to others down the line. God's blessings first manifest spiritually, then physically, and then financially...but none of it will happen for those who'd rather stick with the tired "Christians are supposed to be poor" routine. God does command His people to be humble, that much is true...but He never said we had to be stupid. God simply wants to be #1 in every aspect of our lives.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Ancilla said:

Let's do this - Prove this to be wrong.

The so-called "mainstream" belief of the Prosperity Theology is false. Yes, it is the "popular" definition. Yes, it is what most people know it by. However, this definition has been given by those who oppose to this view. Therefore, it is most likely to be bias and a distortion of what the Theology Prosperity really is. I have asked you this before, can you find me at least one person who believes in the Prosperity Gospel is what the "mainstream" believe it to be? This should not be very hard for you, I am asking you to find me just ONE.

If you can't find one, then you must understand that the "mainstream" or the so-called "official" definition of it is wrong.

Take the trinity doctrine for instance. The Christians (at least most of us) say that the trinity is the belief that God is one, but exist eternally in three distinct persona: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Now the Muslims (opponent of the trinity doctrine) and lot of those who disagree with it say that the trinity doctrine teaches that Christians believe in three gods. Clearly, their definition of it is wrong. If you want to know what the trinity doctrine is, would you go to the opponents claims or the Christians?

NOTE: I am not comparing Christians with Muslim, I just wanted to perhaps show you how your definition of the theology prosperity is bias and wrong.

Ancilla said:

Some of these scriptures, I argued and show the bias in the interpretations. But most importantly, all of these scriptures were used to show how the "mainstream" view, which is the distortion of what the prosperity gospel is, is false. In reference to the "mainstream view" they are indeed relevant. However, in relation of what the Prosperity Gospel really is, they have nothing to do with it. So yes, I dismiss them as irrelevant.

Ancilla said:

I thought I did, but I will go back to this thread and respond to them.

Ancilla said:

And I will, but I need to stop dancing around and go into the scriptures I have given you and all others and tell me how they do not support the Theology Gospel in its proper definition.

Ancilla said:

I ignored that because that's none of your concern. This is a discussion, argue my points. Not my education or my research.

Ancilla said:

That's not quite accurate, I have been asking you to respond to my posts 17 & 37. Other than that, I have given detailed explanations of the verses that have been given me. And notice, when I argue against the verses that are given to me... I don't jump over and quote another verse because that's bad exegesis and not a productive way to conduct a discussion. You must first explain the scripture itself in its content and find out what it means. Most of verses that have been given to me were bias-ly interpreted. That is, they take only part of the passage and leave out the rest. I have given you and roarinkitten Psalms 1 and neither one of you have tried to go into the text and show how it does not mean what I understand it to mean. Why is that?

You said something about me not providing information from other scholars who agree with my understanding of Psalms 1. Truthfully, I did not look this up until you asked me to. Even though there are some, I do not believe I need them to backup my claim because whether or not they agree with me does not make it true. It simply means that Dr. so and so agrees with Rosinsky. This means nothing. Furthermore, if I gave you names of scholars and commentators who agrees with me, would you then profess that you agree? I might be wrong, but I believe the answer to be no. Then what is the point?

Baptistrw · Mar 29, 2009

Ancilla said:

There are alot of ignorant people out there who have no clue how to study the Bible or what it means. Those are good places to go and sharpen oneself.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Baptistrw said:

Ancilla & Baptist, I am neither ignorant nor against seminary or bible college. If I was against them, I would not have been attending one for the past three years and a half. What I am against is when people using them like you did.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

The Greek word used for prosperity in the New Testament is euodoō and it has the following meaning:

to grant a prosperous and expeditious journey, to lead by a direct and easy way
to grant a successful issue, to cause to prosper
to prosper, be successful

This word has been used four times in three scriptures in the New Testament:

Romans 1:10 - Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

1 Corinthians 16:2- Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 John 1:2- Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

As seen in the verses above, prosperity does not mean becoming rich. It means success (Romans 1:10), whatever God has given you—in this case I think it means money— (not wealthy – 1 Cor 16:2), and progress/growth (3 John 1:2).

From John 3:12, we learned that not only there is the prosperity of your soul there is also another type of prosperity. To equate prosperity, biblically speaking, to only spiritual prosperity is to deny what the bible says. Therefore, as Christians we must submit to what these verses teach. With any doctrine, there is the possibility of going to the extreme. This is where one would focus only on spiritual or when one would focus only on the material. The truth is to keep a balance.

John 10:10- The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.

Ancilla, you said that “a ‘rich and satisfying life’ does not necssarily include material wealth.” I agree with you on the wealth aspect. But I believe this “rich and satisfying life” means both spiritual and material satisfaction. Aside the fact that you did not provide any reason from the text itself to support this claim, we have no reason from this text itself to conclude that it is only referring to spiritual or material satisfaction. Based on the previous verses, it is suggested that it’s referring to material aspect. However, the bottom line is we do not know for sure. We are left to believe it to refer to both material and spiritual.

2 Corinthians 8:9- For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

In order to interpret this scripture, we must ask how Jesus was rich before he became “poor.” Without quoting numerous scriptures, I will simply say that He was rich in everything. That is he was rich in knowledge, wisdom, power, spirit, possession, etc… you name it? He was rich in it. I am not using this verse to put an emphasis on material wealth or on becoming rich financially, but to put the emphasis on the theology’s teaching that it is God’s will for you to prosper in every aspect of your life.

Another passage I want to look is Mark chapter 10/Matthew 19. This passage has been used quoted numerously to show how hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. This is presenting a biblical truth. It is indeed hard for a rich mean to be saved. When is the last time you heard of a rich man who accepted Christ as his savior? If a man did not accept Christ before he became rich, it is highly unlikely that he will accept Christ when he does. However, where most of you err is that this verse is not referring to believers because believers are already in the kingdom of God. I am not going to post the whole text here, so read them with your bible. The texts are Matthew 19:16-30 and Mark 10:17-31

What’s going on in this passage is that we have a young rich man who wanted to know what good deeds can he do to have eternal life (Mat 19:16). Jesus told him he had to keep the commandments in not commit murder and adultery, he must not steal and give false testimony, he must honor his father and mother, and he must love his neighbor as himself. But he was not satisfied with this answer, he told Jesus he had already done all that… he asked Jesus what else could he do. In my opinion, I think he was looking for Jesus to tell him “that’s alright buddy, you’re all good.” But Jesus Christ told him to go and sell all of his possession and give the money to the poor. He will then have treasure in heaven. Not finding the answer he was hoping for and not wanting to let go of his material possession, he left Jesus’ presence feeling very sad.

Jesus wanted to appeal to this man that salvation does not come from good deeds unaccompanied by the love for God. This rich man, though he was doing good deeds, was not willing to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and therefore could not let go of his material possessions. Jesus then said it is very hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Now most people who use this text stop here on verse (Matthew 19:23, Mark 10:25) and ignore the rest of the text. In verse 27 of Matthew, Peter told Jesus that they have already given up everything they had to follow him. He continued and asked what he would get for that. Jesus responded and this time I will quote what he said (Matthew 19:27-29).

Matthew 19:27-29: Then Peter said to him, “We’ve given up everything to follow you. What will we get?” 28 Jesus replied, “I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or property, for my sake, will receive a hundred times as much in return and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are the greatest now will be least important then, and those who seem least important now will be the greatest then.

Clearly here, Jesus told him two things:

1):“I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Verse 28)

2) “And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or property, for my sake, will receive a hundred times as much in return and will inherit eternal life.” (Verse 29)

Now, once again, I am not using this text to promote the notion of “God wants you to be rich” but to show the bias that those who are against the Prosperity Theology has. Before you go ahead and bash something, you need to really look at what the bible says, evaluate it, submit and accept what the bible says, take what is good from what you’ve heard, and reject whatever that is bad.

Going back to the prosperity theology, this means that God wants you to prosper both spiritually and materially. Does prospering materially means getting rich? Not at all, though I will not deny that it could, it means that God does want you to prosper in the material area as well. In fact, this passage shows that it is a promise.

Similarly to Mark 10 and Matthew 19 passages, Matthew 6:19-33 is another passage that is often quoted without giving any regard to the rest. Those who use this scripture stop at verse 20 or 24. Verses 25-34 shows by seeking the Kingdom of God first, God will automatically give you “these things.”

I want to focus on verse 33 that says “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” This is a clear statement from Jesus Christ.

The Greek word that is used for the word “first” here is the word “proton” which has the root word Prôtos. The definition of the word Prôtos means that which must occur initially this result (whatever it is) can take place. In order words, it means that which must be done in the beginning to give access to this that we see now. Proton, in its basic term, means an elementary particle in the nucleus of an atom that has a positive charge.

Therefore, we understand that the bible is saying that seeking God is the elementary part of your life and it has a positive charge. Seeking the Lord is the things you do in the beginning that brings the end results you see. The fact that seeking God has a positive charge, “these things” shall be added unto you. In context, these things were “food, housing, and clothing.”

Now if someone is seeking material wealth, then clearly this person's "Prôtos" is in the wrong place.

Furthermore, we see in verses 31-33 “So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?’ 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs.

Notice here, Jesus said that “these things” are what the world seeks after? And yet, he promised the disciples exactly those things that the unbelievers seek. Why? This is because Jesus wanted to shift the emphasis from “the things” to the search for the Kingdom of God. From this we learn that “these things” are not wrong, the Kingdom of God should always be the priority in your life. Your search should always be for the Kingdom of God and in return, you will get “these things.”

Very often this verse (1 John 2:15) is used as a way to argue against the theology prosperity: Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him (1 John 2:15). Clearly, the scripture here is simply stating that you should not love the world or the things that are in the world? Why? It is because the Kingdom should be your priority. Loving God should be your “Prôtos.” If ever you were to love the world or the things that are in the world, then you have shifted your priority from God and submit yourself to another master. You cannot serve two masters. This verse, however, is not saying that you should not live comfortably in this world nor have the things in the world. It is saying that you should not become dominated by them.

To be continued...

Baptistrw · Mar 29, 2009

Rosinsky said:

I didn't say you were ignorant nor did Ancilla to my knowledge. It was a general statement referring to those who do NOT know the Bible nor how to really study it, yet try to teach. However your last sentence doesn't make sense. Might want to edit that.

Sinnner · Mar 29, 2009

Rosinsky said:

You made an obvious personal attack on Rosinsky, I have saerched many of your old posts and this seems to be a pattern with you. Its ok though I think many of us are hard to offend.......I guess its my turn now.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Baptistrw said:

I have already responded to all of these verses on my previous post. Just look above.

Baptistrw said:

I wholeheartedly agree. But then I ask, what do these verses have to do with the theology gospel (God wants every believer to prosper in all he does)?

The Prosperity Theology or Prosperity Gospel

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