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R
God wants us all Christians to prosper. In what way? Prospering His kingdom IS being prosperous(ie: winning souls to Christ):
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Proverbs 11:30
I can win many souls to Christ and be persecuted for it though(my body does not prosper in this case). For whoever gave it, "Prosperity gospel" is not a correct title for this topic....More like "prosperity theology".
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Proverbs 11:30
I can win many souls to Christ and be persecuted for it though(my body does not prosper in this case). For whoever gave it, "Prosperity gospel" is not a correct title for this topic....More like "prosperity theology".
A
The Bible makes it clear that:
James 2:5 - Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
James 2:5 - Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
When that couple were missionaries in Zambia in about 1967, they had a baby boy that didn't make it. It was a very painful experience but they never said "What the heck? I thought God wanted us to be sucessful in every aspect of our lives." becuase they knew that wasn't scriptural. However, my cousin's wife said that experience helped her relate to the Zambian women who lost babies all the time. And God healing them from the pain (although I'm sure the pain is still there 40 years later, because the death of a child is something no one ever fully gets over) was an amazing witness to what God can do.
*granted, they do have a happy marriage and that is something the world values. But, their courtship wasn't exactly worldly.
A
I do appreciate it when someone devotes his or her time into presenting his/her argument against any doctrine.
you believe that the prosperity gospel or theology means a search for material wealth and a sign of God’s approval, and therefore believe it to be against the scripture.
I must say if this was what the Theology of Prosperity was, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it is not. But you are basing this definition, in my opinion, on a false view on prosperity. .
I must say if this was what the Theology of Prosperity was, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it is not. But you are basing this definition, in my opinion, on a false view on prosperity. .
That's basic human nature. We want to believe that following Jesus is the ticket to an easy life. But, Jesus made it quite clear that will not be the case. And good thing it's he didn't conceal the fact that those who were going to follow him were in for very difficult times. I mean think about the fates of the early Christians. Those of whom who were Jewish were regeted by their fellow Jews. And we all know how the Romans treated those early Christians: feeding them to the lions for entertainment, lighting them on fire to light their parties. The same thing still happens today. My dad's best friend was raised Jewish and became a Christian. How do you think that went over with his family? His relationship with his mother was never the same. But Jesus is very clear that choosing a realationship with him might means not having a realtionship with one's family. And Christians face some pretty serious persecution in countries where Christianity is illegal, or just in the minority. I mean, have you ever had to make a serious sacrifice for God that the world would have thought was pretty stupid? You might have had lots of money, a great career, a beautiful girlfriend etc. but you gave that up because you thought that's what God wanted you to. Have you experienced that?
Anyway, I think it was Sir Thomas Moore said "If virtue was rewarded, sheer greed would make us saints." He was inprisoned for standing by scripture, and when people where asking him why God would let that happen if he was such a good Christian he argued that if Christinaity was truly the ticket to sucess in every aspect of life, as you suggest, people would want to be Christians just to satisfy their human nature.
I mean, when you became a Christian, were you not expecting to have troubles that you could have avoided if you weren't a Christian?
A
The only difference between you and I is that I search the scriptures to find out the truth on prosperity as oppose to you searching it to fight against those who claim it to mean material possession.
I'm going to ask you something very personal and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Reading this thread you seem to desperately want this Prosperty Gospel to be true. Can you please tell us why. And at the risk of getting way too personal, according to your profile your a Hatian man living in the USA. Has moving from the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere to the richest country in the Western Hemisphere have anything to do with that? My parents went to Haiti in 1987 to visit missionary friends. They said the poverty was pretty shocking.
R
Agreed, but do you notice when I talk about the Prosperty Gospel I always captialize it? Implying that it's a proper noun??? That's because you didn't make up the Prosperty Gospel. Like I said, I've studied it academically. Am I gulity of confusing the Prosperty Gospel with "Rosinsky brand prosperty gospel, not to be confused with the Prosperty Gospel that everyone learns about in religious studies class"? Sure. However, I thought I made it pretty clear that while the Prosperty Gospel emphasizes material wealth as a sign of God's approval (which is the "official" definition as I was taught in univesity) that's not to say that can be expanded to other areas in one's life. I thought I made that clear.
Can you give me at least one quote from those who believe in this theology in any time period that supports this "official definition?"
I am not asking for a lot, just one.
R
I'm going to ask you something very personal and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Reading this thread you seem to desperately want this Prosperty Gospel to be true. Can you please tell us why. And at the risk of getting way too personal, according to your profile your a Hatian man living in the USA. Has moving from the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere to the richest country in the Western Hemisphere have anything to do with that? My parents went to Haiti in 1987 to visit missionary friends. They said the poverty was pretty shocking.
The answer to your first question, I only hold on to what is already true. If it is true, then why not support it? I do not seek desperately for this Prosperity Gospel to be true especially when it is indeed true. This is not about me but about the topic "The Theology Prosperity." Any topic that I respond to here is not "about me" but my stance on the topic itself.
The answer to your second question is no. I admit, that Haiti is a very poor country. However, my family was not poor. In fact, financially speaking, I was better off in Haiti. As I said before, this is not abou tme.
A
Futhermore, we have no evidence that all of the apostles lived up to everything Jesus had said, does that make what Jesus had said any less true?
So basically, we don't know anything that Jesus said that the apostles have not recounted. In otherwords, if Jesus was right and the apostles were wrong, then we do no have an accurate Bible. And when we're start questioning the Bible, we're getting into dangerous territory. So, if you were to say "Jesus said 'For God so loved the world...'" And I said "How do you know that? Were you there?" You'd say "I wasn't there but John was, and I believe he accurately recounted that when he wrote his Gospel."
I don't mean to come down hard on you. I just think it's kind of shocking that you seem to want this Posperty Gospel to be true that you'd go so far as to question the Apostles.
R
No, the difference is that you search the scriptures for truth on prosperty and I search the scriptures for truth.
This is not to be confused to when I read the scripture for personal use.
R
Well, we know that the apostles didn't live up to everything Jesus said. That's in scripture. Peter denied Jesus, Paul struggled with sin, etc. However, we have to trust that they were right about everything they wrote. The New Testament was written by the Apostles, so if they weren't always right, then that means that the New Testament isn't always right. Well, Luke wasn't an apostle, but what he wrote was based on those who knew Jesus. Like, Matthew and John were disciples and were writing based on their psersonal experience, but Luke looks like he was the only one to interview Mary which is why his Gospel is the only one with the Magnificat. If that's wrong, please correct me.
So basically, we don't know anything that Jesus said that the apostles have not recounted. In otherwords, if Jesus was right and the apostles were wrong, then we do no have an accurate Bible. And when we're start questioning the Bible, we're getting into dangerous territory. So, if you were to say "Jesus said 'For God so loved the world...'" And I said "How do you know that? Were you there?" You'd say "I wasn't there but John was, and I believe he accurately recounted that when he wrote his Gospel."
I don't mean to come down hard on you. I just think it's kind of shocking that you seem to want this Posperty Gospel to be true that you'd go so far as to question the Apostles.
So basically, we don't know anything that Jesus said that the apostles have not recounted. In otherwords, if Jesus was right and the apostles were wrong, then we do no have an accurate Bible. And when we're start questioning the Bible, we're getting into dangerous territory. So, if you were to say "Jesus said 'For God so loved the world...'" And I said "How do you know that? Were you there?" You'd say "I wasn't there but John was, and I believe he accurately recounted that when he wrote his Gospel."
I don't mean to come down hard on you. I just think it's kind of shocking that you seem to want this Posperty Gospel to be true that you'd go so far as to question the Apostles.
Originally Posted by Baptistrw
How many of the 12 Apostles were prosperous?
Whether they did or not is irrelevant to whether or not the prosperity theology is true. Futhermore, we have no evidence that all of the apostles lived up to everything Jesus had said, does that make what Jesus had said any less true?
My response was meant to say that even if the Apostles were not prosperous, it does not mean the prosperity gospel is not true. There are things that Jesus said that we have no evidence that the apostles actually did those things (hence... lived up to everything Jesus said), however this does not make what Jesus had said any less true.
You totally misunderstood.
A
It is the "official" definition given by who? Those who oppose to the view? No wonder!
Like, I saw a TV preacher once who was saying that if you're a Christian and the world sees that you drive a nice car then the world will know that God is good. Well, I think you know what's wrong with that statement. His name was... something Dollar. I thought it was funny how a guy teaching the Prosperty Gospel has the last name "Dollar."
As for the official definition check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_gospel
The first sentence of that article is: "Prosperity theology is a religious teaching that God desires the material prosperity of those he favors."
Now before you tell me that Wikipedia isn't necessarily accurate, remember that it does represent public concensous. That is to say, the majority of people will agree to the definition posted there. It's important to familiarize yourself with the mainstream definition of Prosperty Gospel otherwise you'll confuse people when you use that term to describe something completely different. It's kind of like if I were to say to another Christian "I'm a Baptist." They'd make certain assumptions about what I believed based on that statement. However, if later in that conversation I said "Oh by the way, my definition of Baptist is someone who belives salvation is only possible through infant baptism." Then that would really confuse them because that is NOT what Baptists belive. If you're definition of something differs from mainstream use, then maybe you need to find your own term.
That begs the question: what kind of research did you do on the Prosperty Gospel prior to starting that thread. You keep talking about how you belive God wants us to sucessful in all areas of life, but where are you getting that information? We've already shown you how that's not in the Bible.
I mean, there's a book called "When bad things happen to good people." Can you imagine if I could go back in time and give that book to Paul while he was sitting in his jail cell? Well, he's probably look at the title and have a good laugh, because it never occured to him that anyone would think that bad things wouldn't happen to good people.
A
My response was meant to say that even if the Apostles were not prosperous, it does not mean the prosperity gospel is not true. There are things that Jesus said that we have no evidence that the apostles actually did those things (hence... lived up to everything Jesus said), however this does not make what Jesus had said any less true.
You totally misunderstood.
You totally misunderstood.
R
I don't mean to come down hard on you. I just think it's kind of shocking that you seem to want this Posperty Gospel to be true that you'd go so far as to question the Apostles.
However, I do mind when you are no longer arguing my points and start arguing me. This is because at this point, I believe the discussion is no longer productive and regardless on how much I enjoy biblical discussions, I will withdraw from it.
A
The answer to your first question, I only hold on to what is already true. If it is true, then why not support it? I do not seek desperately for this Prosperity Gospel to be true especially when it is indeed true.
I think you are out of line here in what you are implying but I don't mind answering.
The answer to your second question is no. I admit, that Haiti is a very poor country. However, my family was not poor. In fact, financially speaking, I was better off in Haiti. As I said before, this is not abou tme.
The answer to your second question is no. I admit, that Haiti is a very poor country. However, my family was not poor. In fact, financially speaking, I was better off in Haiti. As I said before, this is not abou tme.
I do know, however, that if I were lesbian or transgendered I'd desperatly seek the scriptures for a "just be yourself" gospel. Although that doesn't have an official name, many Christians are subcribing to it despite what scripture says.
R
But it's not true!! We've showed you this with scripture. We've asked you to provide scripture that supports your view, but you haven't been able to. You seem so confident that it's true but you don't tell us why you believe that it's true.
Read post #37 - http://www.christianchat.com/showpost.php?p=31963&postcount=37
So far, not one of you have provided any argument whatsoever against these posts. I am waiting for a response from Phil in regards to Psalms 1.
That makes sense. I don't mean to judge you, but if were rich in a poor country and I felt guilty for being rich, I'd look ways to use scripture to justify it.
Anyway, please do not say what I did not. I did never claimed to be rich because I was not. But again, I did say I was not. Let me make it clear this time: I was not rich. This is what I am claiming: I was not rich but I was not poor by the grace of God.
A
However, I do mind when you are no longer arguing my points and start arguing me. This is because at this point, I believe the discussion is no longer productive and regardless on how much I enjoy biblical discussions, I will withdraw from it.
A
Read post #17 - http://www.christianchat.com/showpost.php?p=31569&postcount=17
Read post #37 - http://www.christianchat.com/showpost.php?p=31963&postcount=37
So far, not one of you have provided any argument whatsoever against these posts. I am waiting for a response from Phil in regards to Psalms 1.
Read post #37 - http://www.christianchat.com/showpost.php?p=31963&postcount=37
So far, not one of you have provided any argument whatsoever against these posts. I am waiting for a response from Phil in regards to Psalms 1.
R
That's fine and I appreciate your openness (that's another thing I enjoy in people). But your assumptions are wrong. You've accused me of providing no basis for my belief when in fact I did from the very first page. So it seems that you have not been really paying attention?
From page 2, I provided another scriptural defense to what I believe and ever since I have been answering questions.
When I made the statement about the withdrawal from the discussion. I made it because I felt you were leaving the topic behind and was then arguing me. I do not appreciate that in a discussion because it leads nowhere.
But now that we're all on the same page, can we get back on the topic now?
From page 2, I provided another scriptural defense to what I believe and ever since I have been answering questions.
When I made the statement about the withdrawal from the discussion. I made it because I felt you were leaving the topic behind and was then arguing me. I do not appreciate that in a discussion because it leads nowhere.
But now that we're all on the same page, can we get back on the topic now?
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