The Prosperity Theology or Prosperity Gospel

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

My long post in on page 6 actually rebuke some from this article. It's not that I cannot go and provide a response to that article, it is just that I won't.

phil36 said:

I am going to say the same thing I said to Ancilla and present the same challenge to you:

Let's do this - Prove this to be wrong.

The so-called "mainstream" belief of the Prosperity Theology is false. Yes, it is the "popular" definition. Yes, it is what most people know it by. However, this definition has been given by those who oppose to this view. Therefore, it is most likely to be bias and a distortion of what the Theology Prosperity really is. I have asked you this before, can you find me at least one person who believes in the Prosperity Gospel is what the "mainstream" believe it to be? This should not be very hard for you, I am asking you to find me just ONE.

If you can't find one, then you must understand that the "mainstream" or the so-called "official" definition of it is wrong.

Take the trinity doctrine for instance. The Christians (at least most of us) say that the trinity is the belief that God is one, but exist eternally in three distinct persona: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Now the Muslims (opponent of the trinity doctrine) and lot of those who disagree with it say that the trinity doctrine teaches that Christians believe in three gods. Clearly, their definition of it is wrong. If you want to know what the trinity doctrine is, would you go to the opponents claims or the Christians?

NOTE: I am not comparing Christians with Muslim, I just wanted to perhaps show you how your definition of the theology prosperity is bias and wrong.

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

I'm confused. You said you like debate, but in a debate each side prsents facts and arguements to support their position. If I was engaged in a debate with someone and they started by saying "My postion will be considered right unless you prove me wrong... and we'll only be talking about the facts that I present, any facts and arguements you bring up will be ignored." Well, then do you think I will engage in that debate?? I just wish you'd been open with us about the approach you were going to take before I sarted posting on this stupid thread.

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

Sinnner said:

Not exactly, what I'm saying is that Wikipedia listed them as supporting the Prosperty Gospel, which is false. This does not mean they aren't right about other things. I saw a pretty disturbing documentary on Benny Hinn and how insiders have accused him as being a money maker. They've said that they'll judge the sucess of a rally based on how much money they rake in and not on how many people were saved. This is why they take the collection before they do the "healing" so the sick will think that if they do not donate big then they will not be healed. His extravagent standard of living has also been grossly criticized. However, if you look at Hinn's faith statement, there's nothing particularily wrong with it.

Bishop Jakes said that he doesn't believe that God has a problem with us owning stuff, just stuff owning us. Well, Rich Mullins (for whom I have a lot of respect, may he rest in peace) never gave stuff a chance to own him because no matter how much money he made (and he sold a heck of a lot of CDs, plus got money when churches got permission to use his songs like Awesome God) he lived on 30 some grand a year, a working man's salary. He told his accountant never to tell him how much money he really had, and I never found out what he did with that money (but I suspect it was sent to good Christian causes). The point is he took the Bible verses on the dangerous of money seriously and never gave the devil a foothold.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Ancilla said:

I don't think I did, I will on my next reply to this post.

Ancilla said:

These verses are from Baptist's post and as you can see from my previous posts to you, I told you I thought I already responded to those, but you shown me that I did not.

Read page 6 - You will see my response to these verses.

Ancilla said:

Ancilla, you've never asked me to support a fact. You've asked me to tell you what "type" of research I have done on this topic prior to starting this thread. I have told you and I will tell you again, that's not of your concern. You've also asked me what scholars support my understanding of Psalms 1, with that I will tell you again, that's none of your concern. I don't need scholars to agree with me and like I said before, even if they did, it would not change either your view or mine. So what's the point? You are to argue my points. My studies are no concern of yours.

However, I have been claiming that God wants every believer to prosper in all he does and that's what "proponents" of the theology of prosperity claims it to be. Then I must support it with facts when asked to. Not you or anybody else ever asked me to do that. Since it is sunday, I won't be able to provide you with books as I do not have access to the library. I will give you some facts by tomorrow night.

But for now, here's a quote about Joel Osteen:

When I hear that word rich, I think people say, 'Well, he's preaching that everybody's going to be a millionaire.' I don't think that's it." Rather, he explains, "I preach that anybody can improve their lives. I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy. To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college. I think he wants us to be a blessing to other people. But I don't think I'd say God wants us to be rich. It's all relative, isn't it?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1533448-4,00.html

Now, let's be clear. Who's kidding who here? Who among all here have been responding to questions and verses the most? I have. You have not answered any of my posts. Yes, you make statements like "these do not mean material wealth." But you have never answered those those verses. Furthermore, aside from the verse on luke, you have NOT provided any biblical text.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

lovespeace123 said:

The Bible calls wealth deceitful and it has many many many many many agents. Teachings about wealth are creating urban/suburban sprawl and decreasing people's great faith in God. Jesus' sheep hear his voice. I won't assert to know who His sheep are and who are not, but if a men endeavours to be rich, let him.

The Bible makes it clear that:

James 2:5 - Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

I PERSONALLY BELIEVE that wealth is not the anti-God, but rather the anti-faith. The Bible makes it clear that we are to call nothing evil, but Christ rested with the poor, not the rich. If you discern his heart, you see that it is more with the poor than the rich. This is the revelation throughout scripture. It's about faith in GOD and doing what pleases God, for with faith we please God and with great faith, we really please God.

Sam

The reason why I did not respond is because I totally agree with his used of the scripture. He did not misquote it. I could go and explain the context here but for what purpose? I totally agree!

lovespeace123 · Mar 29, 2009

Churches should not be be built on a teaching about prosperity and wealth. The Bible has a greater emphasis on so many other things. The godly in Christ will be persecuted.

Sam

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Rosinsky said:

And Ancilla, perhaps you could extend the same courtesy by providing quotes from actual proponents of the Theology of Prosperity that it is God's will for every Christian to be wealthy?

phil36 · Mar 29, 2009

First of all Rosinsky the 'Theology of the Prosperity Gospel' has been difined. especialy in the Article I posted from Bible.org. the definintion of the Theology of the prosperity gospel has been defined by those who preach/teach it. (copelands and the likes.) The 'prosperity theology' is not just about 'prosperity' it is how other Doctrines have been twisted to substantiate these views.

Its not just the thought of prosperity, it is the whole Theology behind it that is false. And the people who preach/teach it are the ones who have defined it not its opponents.

So those who preach/teach the 'Theology of the prosperity gospel' are false or as you say the mainstream?? some of these guys are the main proponents of it. Now as i have asked you before, do you have your own theological stance to prove just the handfull of verses you have quoted? is your theological stance of biblical doctrine the same as the 'theology of the prosperity gospel' or are you saying all those preaching the prosperity gospel are false and you have the correct theological stance on the 'Theology of the prosperity gospel'?

Humbly

Phil

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

You said

Rosinsky said:

I have asked you, what seems like many many times where you got the information that this is what the prosperity gospel teaches, and you have not answered my question. But at this point I doubt you ever will, so I will save myself the trouble of asking you again.

Rosinsky said:

I felt I didn't need to because my fellow posters have presented you with plenty of verses to counter your interpretation of the verses you think support your positon. What's the point of repeating what they said??? If you didn't listen to them, why would I think me giving you those same verses (or others that say the same thing) would change your mind?? But for the sake of arguement, at one point I just saved myself the time of writing out all those verses and just quoted all them from another poster.

Rosinsky said:

Prior to starting this thread, since starting this thread, that's just splitting hairs. I just feel like you haven't been honest about your intentions in starting this thread. Your first post made it really look like you were wanting other people's opinions on this topic, but you didn't say that you're going to stubbornly defend it regardless of how much scripture and arguements presented to the contrary. I really feel like you're just playing everyone who's posting on here, and that's not ok to me. Like I said, believe what you want to believe, just remember you'll be judged for that and don't waste anyone's time in the process.

Rosinsky said:

Don't bother, at least not for my sake. I'm not interested in engaging in debate with someone who gets definsive when asked to suport their position with anything more than an obvious misinterpretation of a few verses. I'm not playing your game anymore.

Rosinsky said:

Now hold on, I have answered every one of your posts addressed to me, and answered all your questions except when I felt like I would have been reapting myself or others. But while you have been good at responded to posts in general, instead of commenting on verses or other arguements against your position, you just keep bringing it back to it back to those few verses that we've already told you your misinterpreting and that quote I put at the start of my post on what you think the Prosperty Gospel teaches, yet you refuse to tell us where you got that information. Like I said, I can say that Baptists believe in infant baptism, but that doesn't make it true. And if Baptistsw (who I assume is a Baptist, I don't know, I've never asked) asked me where I learned that because that's incorrect (the Anabaptists were founded on the believer baptisim, if I remember correctly) and I told him that was none of his concern, what would that say about me???

phil36 · Mar 29, 2009

very well put ancilla. Rosinsky so where did you get it from?

The above is from the same article i posted earlier. Now read very carefully the words in bold (above)!!!!!!!!

Are not these the same words Rosinsky has used.

So Rosisnky you just read it from Scripture? really? you dont go along with the 'Theology of the prosperity gospel'?

and your thoughts are just yours and you do not go with mainstream (as you call it) prosperity teachings, and you don't go along with the Theology behind these teachings?? Im starting to find that stance that you are portraying hard to believe, especially the more i dig deeper and deeper into what the prosperity gospel is.

In Christ

Phil

Ancilla · Mar 29, 2009

I said I was done here but we need to make a distinction. I've tried to say it before, but I should make it clear. There is a difference between what God wants for us and what He will actively use His power to make sure it comes to pass. Take the current economic crisis. Was it God's will for all those people to loose their homes? No, but greed on the part of both the lender and the borrower lead to this problem. So, while this wasn't His will, it was something He let happen. There's a huge difference there. But on the other hand, I heard that church attendence is up in the USA since stock market crash. I've said it once and I'll say it again, prosperty has a terrible power to pull us away from God (and I don't just mean material prosperty. I mean when we are sucessful human nature all too often tells us that we got there on our own and therefor you don't need God cramping our style. Why else do you thnk Jesus said that verse about camel and the needle. Furthermore, why do you think that verse found it's way into three Gospels?). Why then would it always be God's will for us to be prosperous when prosperty has such a terrible power to pull us away from Him? Wouldn't you agree that someone who is poor but has God is better off than someone who is rich but doesn't have God?

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

I can't handle this. I am not reffering to the debate, I am are reffering to the back and forth.

I propose two solutions:

1) We get a moderator and whatever the moderator asks to do, we do it. We will proceed with whatever the moderator asks to do.

2) We start over with a moderator.

I suggest MerryHeart so long as she agrees

phil36 · Mar 29, 2009

Its simple, Rosinsky. just answer the simple question above.

Anyhow you can't seem to answer. so I agree with ancilla we should just finish it.

Yours in Christ

Phil

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

phil36 said:

I will answer only to show you that I am not afraid, it's just that I am tired with the back and forth. Where did I get it from? I believe to get the true meaning of something, you must go to its source. I get my definition (of course I have been paraphrasing) of this theology from reading from those who believe in it. Based on my research, they all maintain, one way or another, that it is the will of God for every believer to prosper.

I do not see any of them on my research who claim that God wants every believer to be wealthy. Or that it is a theology that is based on materialistic wealth.

This is VERY different from when I read the mainstream definition of the theology. They claim that it is all about wealth, health, becoming rich.

The definition of those who support my personal study on the word even before I was introduced to this theology and therefore I stand by the stance of those who believe in it.

Since you all insist that the definition should be what the mainstream claim it to be, I have asked you to provide at least ONE quote from the proponents to show that this is what they believe. After all, they are the ones who came up with this theory. Since then, you simply been going back and forth.

Phil, you posted this quote: ....Listen to the words of Robert Tilton, one of the prosperity gospels most well-known spokesmen: I believe that it is the will of God for all to prosper because I see it in the Word [of God], not because it has worked mightily for someone else. I do not put my eyes on men, but on God who gives me the power to get wealth

This is exactly what I have been saying all along. According to those who believe in it, they define it as God's will for every believer to prosper. Now Tilton added that "he" (now speaking personally) does not put his eyes on men, but on God who gives him the power to get wealth.

I have given you another quote from Joel Osteen and this is what he says: When I hear that word rich, I think people say, 'Well, he's preaching that everybody's going to be a millionaire.' I don't think that's it.I preach that anybody can improve their lives. I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy. To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college. I think he wants us to be a blessing to other people. But I don't think I'd say God wants us to be rich. It's all relative, isn't it?

Therefore, I conclude that the notion that the prosperity theology means that God wants all of his children to become wealthy is a fabrication of those who oppose it. Should this discussion continues, I will provide more facts that support this conclusion.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Rosinsky said:

You may ask, why didn't I provide these facts before? Simply because up until tonight, I have never been asked to. And if anyone believes that I am wrong, I am glad that this is is not an oral debate. We have everything written down.

Simply quote it.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

One more thing, based on my research I also believe that there are those who do believe in the prosperity gospel but yet pervert it for their own good.

phil36 · Mar 29, 2009

I can see what you are saying Rosinsky, I don't agree with you though, but I see where you are coming from. Now that you have stated this, do you go along with the definition as stated in the bible.org article i posted? these definations are from the prosperity people themselves and not opponents, i.e, Abrahamic covenant the Atonement etc as this is the big problem of how they get to the fact of prosperity and not just wealth, but the whole "every believer 'can have' attitude, good jobs, good finances, good health, great relationships" and the list goes on.

So the main ethos seems to be a 'Can have' theology, a self centered relationship.

I have asked before, what about the Christian who is poor or ill health yet has touched the hearts of many through this...? you have been very shady on your answers.

the problem with this debate is you have been asked but you cannot define how you come to your belief except a few verses, and others have shown you, your error in scripture.

Basically no matter what branch of prosperity theology/Gospel you follow the basis has been built on dodgy doctrine from the bottom up, this has already been discussed. you are unwilling to discuss this part. I also agree with Ancilla your initail posting seems to have been deceptive, I am not saying that was intentional but it was. It does seem or come across that you have been playing a game.

anyhow, this is a debate quite a long one might i add lol, and it is going round in circles, mainly because you have not been forthcoming of the basis of your version or the version you have been taught is based on. you keep going back to a one line statement, and its the same statement most prosperity preachers use.

Now if I wanted to and many have, I could invent a new 'Gospel' if it where possible and use Scripture to back it up (many have), the difference with the prosperity movement and that will include what you have been taught, is that they have twisted main portions of the bible to make it fit.

anyhow I think we have went round and round and round enough. so thats me finished on this thread.

Yours humbly in Christ

Phil

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

I am eager to respond to your post, but to respond to it would begin another cycle and as I said. I will not prolong this without a moderator.

God bless!

Moviefan2k4 · Mar 29, 2009

I noticed nobody bothered to reply to my post on this from page 6, so here's a copy of what I wrote...

moviefan2k4 said:

I'm no expert on this issue, but I personally believe that God wants all of His children to prosper in every way imaginable. However, whether they do so or not is often determined by their faith, and what they're willing to do in attaining their goals. Now, God obviously doesn't ask or command His children to do despicable or dishonorable things in this regard, but He does say that honest workers deserve their pay. Jesus often spoke in parables about landowners and taskmasters who were generous to their hired hands, using such stories to illustrate different points.

I think that one of the bigger mistakes people often fall into is accepting the popular mentality which says "Money is the root of all evil." The Bible does not say that; the verse actually reads as "The love of money is a root for all kinds of evil." That's quite a different setup right there. It shows that evil has many kinds, each kind has many roots, and financial greed is only one of them. People often place far too much emphasis on the money itself, instead of focusing on what it's being used for.

God does want His children to prosper in every way, so that they can be a blessing to others in return. How do you bless someone with something you don't have? Scripture says very clearly that God wants us to be "wealthy in every way", so that His blessings for us can be passed on to others down the line. God's blessings first manifest spiritually, then physically, and then financially...but none of it will happen for those who'd rather stick with the tired "Christians are supposed to be poor" routine. God does command His people to be humble, that much is true...but He never said we had to be stupid. God simply wants to be #1 in every aspect of our lives.

Rosinsky · Mar 29, 2009

Moviefan2k4, I agree with you 100%

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