The Rapture Is here:]
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Matthew 24 is clear that the rapture is after the Tribulation. In fact, this is the chapter that we get the doctrine of the Tribulation. There is also the fact that the parable of the wheat and tares says that the tares will be gathered first at the end of the age. The wheat is gathered last. Pre-tribulation is backwards. Also, we know that the dead in Christ are raised during the rapture. Jesus said he would raise the saints up in the last day. That means that it must be last, not seven years before. Everyone who will live righteously in Christ must suffer persecution. That's the Bible. The people of God will be protected during the Tribulation from God's wrath. They will only face the Devil and the Beasts.
What possible reason could there be for rapturing the church after the tribulation? You must distinguish the rapture from the triumphant return of Christ. The rapture is a church event. It is the close of the church age and the times of the Gentile. The triumphant return of Christ is the end of the seventy weeks of Daniel.
I can agree that we will suffer persecution but we will not suffer the wrath of God. The tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on the earth. Now 1Thess5:9 does mention in context that believers do not suffer the wrath of God so that means we won't be here during the great tribulation. That believers will face the devil or the beast is not scriptural. The tribulation in context is a Jewish event. God is going to judge Israel during the tribulation so they will be ready to see Messiah when He returns to the earth. No church is present during the tribulation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I can agree that we will suffer persecution but we will not suffer the wrath of God. The tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on the earth. Now 1Thess5:9 does mention in context that believers do not suffer the wrath of God so that means we won't be here during the great tribulation. That believers will face the devil or the beast is not scriptural. The tribulation in context is a Jewish event. God is going to judge Israel during the tribulation so they will be ready to see Messiah when He returns to the earth. No church is present during the tribulation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
B
I agree with you to a point. Yes the rapture is after the tribulation. Matt 24 is not solely talking about JUST the seven year tribulation, which does not exist. That is only made a possibility in Dan 9:27. Because we want this seven year tribulation to exist so badly, we must force EVERY other passages such as 42 months, 1260 days and others just like it as well as time, times and half times to be less than seven years yet we take the 69 weeks of days which turns out to be something like 476 days knowing that the rebuilding of Jerusalem started in 444 BC and the cutting off of the Messiah in 32 AD that 476 days just won't cut it. That didn't work for you. You had to come up with a new plan. Since you knew both the starting point (rebuilding of Jerusalem) and the ending point (death of Jesus), you had to use years instead. 476-444=32. You had no choice but to do that to make it fit a known historical fact. This is correct doctrine.
Do you really believe 90% of all the rest of the Bible's prophecies will fulfill themselves in less than 4 years and the 69 weeks is the ONLY reference in the ENTIRE BIBLE that uses the years instead of days? Are you serious? Do you realize it could take thousands of years to change a cultural belief structure? Suppose I were to tell everyone here that there will be some kind of special event that will occur, say 50 years from now. All of you believe me and wait 50 years. Didn't happen. I then tell you 10 more years and then it will. I was off a bit. You wait yet again. Still doesn't happen. Keep doing this over and over yet you still believe me. Point is, culture takes time to change. A belief structure doesn't last one generation. It could last hundreds of generations! So, with that said, why can't the other prophecies last hundreds upon thousands of years? I thought I covered that. Because then it won't fit your 7 year period which doesn't even exist. As the old saying goes, "Rome wasn't built in a day" so why must prophecy be completed in a day? When I say Rome being built, I don't mean the buildings. I am talking about the philosophy. Not everyone bought into that ideology all at once. They slowly grew into it. Prophecy works the same way. It takes a long time to develop the outcome of a prophecy as the 69 weeks did. As you can see, the 69 week prophecy did not last less than on generation whereas the said individual could see its fulfillment yet every single prophecy such as the 1260 day two witnesses one as well as all the rest of them, somebody gets to see when they start, go through them and witness the conclusion of it within 7 years time! Are you crazy??
Do you really believe 90% of all the rest of the Bible's prophecies will fulfill themselves in less than 4 years and the 69 weeks is the ONLY reference in the ENTIRE BIBLE that uses the years instead of days? Are you serious? Do you realize it could take thousands of years to change a cultural belief structure? Suppose I were to tell everyone here that there will be some kind of special event that will occur, say 50 years from now. All of you believe me and wait 50 years. Didn't happen. I then tell you 10 more years and then it will. I was off a bit. You wait yet again. Still doesn't happen. Keep doing this over and over yet you still believe me. Point is, culture takes time to change. A belief structure doesn't last one generation. It could last hundreds of generations! So, with that said, why can't the other prophecies last hundreds upon thousands of years? I thought I covered that. Because then it won't fit your 7 year period which doesn't even exist. As the old saying goes, "Rome wasn't built in a day" so why must prophecy be completed in a day? When I say Rome being built, I don't mean the buildings. I am talking about the philosophy. Not everyone bought into that ideology all at once. They slowly grew into it. Prophecy works the same way. It takes a long time to develop the outcome of a prophecy as the 69 weeks did. As you can see, the 69 week prophecy did not last less than on generation whereas the said individual could see its fulfillment yet every single prophecy such as the 1260 day two witnesses one as well as all the rest of them, somebody gets to see when they start, go through them and witness the conclusion of it within 7 years time! Are you crazy??
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MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.
P
The wrath of God poured out on the people that have the mark of the beast and that worship his image.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.
The tribulation is the trying, the purging the purifying to make you white, to bring you forth as gold.
Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Have you got any scripture for any of that?
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.
The tribulation is the trying, the purging the purifying to make you white, to bring you forth as gold.
Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Have you got any scripture for any of that?
You have not yet explained the "last trumpet" and your last trumpet
Originally Posted by peterT
Yes there is only one last trumpet and the last trumpet is the last trumpet, and Jesus comes at the last trumpet, and the angels are the reapers
What’s your point?
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.
What’s your point?
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.
After Jesus Christ has taken up the saved with His first coming, will the 144,000, which is part of the group taken up, take up their places on the thrones to confirm the judgement. This will be done in heaven with Jesus Christ. Satan will during the same time be locked in the pit of darkness whilst his angels will be on this earth with all the living non-saved. There will be no more saving of souls as the judgement has been completed and the door of probation has been shut. The save ones will be in heaven with God and Christ for the whole period of 1000 years. There will be no more second chance to repent and be saved. All the unsaved on this earth will then be destroyed by fire and brimstone, this is after the 1000 years.
W
You have not yet explained the "last trumpet" and your last trumpet
Originally Posted by peterT
Yes there is only one last trumpet and the last trumpet is the last trumpet, and Jesus comes at the last trumpet, and the angels are the reapers
What’s your point?
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.
What’s your point?
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.
The Second Coming: Why We Should Still Be Waiting - A Response To Dr. Russ Jurek (Part 3) | Planet Preterist
The Roman destruction of Jerusalem, in 70 AD, proved that Jesus had Prophesied accurately, and so was a True Prophet. That was the sign / indicator that Jesus really was in heaven. 70 AD was a "Judgement Coming" of Divine Power, to earth. All of the descriptions of "coming" on "clouds" in the "air" seems to be Spiritual symbolism & metaphor. Seemingly, the Resurrection of the "dead in Christ" (1 Thess 4) = "first Resurrection" (Rev 20); being together with Christ (1 Thess 4-5) = reigning with Christ (Rev 20).
The tribulation happens before the wrath of God is poured out. The wrath of God does not begin....well just read the scriptures
1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 15:1-2 (KJV)
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, SEVEN ANGELS HAVING THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES; for in them is filled up THE WRATH OF GOD.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Revelation 16:1-2 (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to THE SEVEN ANGELS, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of THE WRATH OF GOD upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Revelation 15:7-8 (KJV)
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of THE WRATH OF GOD, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 8:1-2 (KJV)
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
7th trumpet – the last trumpet {1Cor.15} to be blown
Isaiah 13:8-9 (KJV)
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Zephaniah 1:14-18 (KJV)
14 THE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 15:1-2 (KJV)
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, SEVEN ANGELS HAVING THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES; for in them is filled up THE WRATH OF GOD.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Revelation 16:1-2 (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to THE SEVEN ANGELS, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of THE WRATH OF GOD upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Revelation 15:7-8 (KJV)
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of THE WRATH OF GOD, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 8:1-2 (KJV)
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
7th trumpet – the last trumpet {1Cor.15} to be blown
Isaiah 13:8-9 (KJV)
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Zephaniah 1:14-18 (KJV)
14 THE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
And the Day of the Lord starts when the scriptures say it starts
MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, and THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Right AFTER the tribulation period the sun shall be darkened and the moon wont be shining.
JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.
In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord
Do the math. The Day of the Lord does not begin till the tribulation period is over
MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, and THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Right AFTER the tribulation period the sun shall be darkened and the moon wont be shining.
JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.
In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord
Do the math. The Day of the Lord does not begin till the tribulation period is over
ISAIAH 26 [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).
ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.
See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord. But were gonna have a good hiding place.
Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).
ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.
See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord. But were gonna have a good hiding place.
W
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus specifically states that "this generation", i.e. those to whom He was then speaking, circa 30 AD, would not pass away, before the fulfillments of His Prophesies (and, so, His vindication, as a true Prophet of God in heaven)
Yes, the "Tribulation" ends before the "sign of the Son of Man in heaven"
Tribulation = Neronian persecution = 64-68 AD
sign = Judgement vs. Jerusalem = 70 AD
Yes, the "Tribulation" ends before the "sign of the Son of Man in heaven"
Tribulation = Neronian persecution = 64-68 AD
sign = Judgement vs. Jerusalem = 70 AD