The Rapture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

tanach

Guest
#61
I am with you on this. The rapture is an invention of two ministers in Scotland , who when heard of a young girls' (Margaret McDonald) story of a visitation by a spirit who gave her this information in the first place, ran with it and created a whole new religion based on this. No one will find any trace of rapture theory before 1830, it simply did not exist anywhere. For those interested in the origins of the rapture, I direct you to read "The incredible cover up" by Dave MacPherson, who wrote this documentary after tracing the origins from the U.S. to England, then to Scotland. This has all been recorded in church history. Many people hear of this by word of mouth and have no idea where and when it originated from as with so many other so called church doctrines that are not of God , nor Christ, but from the mouths of men.
You are partly right. The rapture as believed by many evangelical Christians was an invention promoted by John Darby and Schofield. Known as the Pre Trib rapture it asserts that Christ is going to come before the tribulation and remove the church. However the belief that we are to be gathered together be transformed and meet the lord in the air at his second coming is
a Biblical teaching and is found in Pauls epistles to the Corinthians and Thessalonians.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#62
you are rambling here. This is in reference to those who are still alive at the rapture compared to those who have already fallen asleep in Christ.
This is not just rambling because in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 is speaking on the second coming of the Lord, not about a mysterious rapture a few years before His second coming.
 
Aug 21, 2015
196
1
0
#63
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)

Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:

"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor ofthe appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!

Notice that there is a clear teaching on the rapture of the saints before the terrible tribulation period. This theologian admonishes the people not to desire to see the Day of the Lord? Why? Because in his mind to see the day of the Lord means a person is not a believer. The believers will be snatched away and taken to the Lord before this time period begins. Look closely at what he says again:


Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University

Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:

"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more- because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the Father's house' (John 14:2)."
I'm sorry this is talking about 2 returnings and that is not scriptural. Christ is returning one more time at the end of time. That is scriptural
 
T

tanach

Guest
#64
Yet your profile says you are 67 years old, does that mean that the world is only 67 years old, or maybe you're really over 6000 years old (if you're a young creationalist) or 14 billion if you're an old earth believer!

Pray tell me sir, which are you? :confused:
I am the same age. Sometimes I feel as if I have been around that long LOL
 
I

Is

Guest
#65
I'm sorry this is talking about 2 returnings and that is not scriptural. Christ is returning one more time at the end of time. That is scriptural
Jesus returns to the {{earth}} one more time. When He takes believers out of the earth before God's wrath happens, we meet Him in the sky and He doesn't return to the earth at that time.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,713
3,651
113
#66
No Revelation 19:8 is the marriage supper as verses 7-10 all go together, as this whole scene is the marriage supper and the calling of the Church to it.

Because verse 8 is the Church !!!

Verse 11 is the start of Armageddon, so you can see that this does not prove pre-trib nor does it do away with the 1,260 days that the man of sin is given in the GT to persecute and kill Jews and Christians both.
You didn't address Christ Coming back with His saints clothed in fine linen...without spot or wrinkle.

Ephesians 5:27 (KJV) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,713
3,651
113
#67
This is not just rambling because in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 is speaking on the second coming of the Lord, not about a mysterious rapture a few years before His second coming.
Two can play that game.
It is rambling because 1Thess 4:13-17 is speaking of the rapture...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,713
3,651
113
#68
I'm sorry this is talking about 2 returnings and that is not scriptural. Christ is returning one more time at the end of time. That is scriptural
The rapture is our GOING to Him, not His COMING to earth.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,713
3,651
113
#69
A person can believe what they want, what irks me is the unfounded, strawman, and ad hominem attacks that only cloud the issue rather than seek if a position is scripturally backed.
 
Aug 21, 2015
196
1
0
#70
Jesus returns to the {{earth}} one more time. When He takes believers out of the earth before God's wrath happens, we meet Him in the sky and He doesn't return to the earth at that time.
Any way you try to explain it, return then return again equals two returnings. That is not scriptural. Jesus didn't teach this.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#71
You are partly right. The rapture as believed by many evangelical Christians was an invention promoted by John Darby and Schofield. Known as the Pre Trib rapture it asserts that Christ is going to come before the tribulation and remove the church. However the belief that we are to be gathered together be transformed and meet the lord in the air at his second coming is
a Biblical teaching and is found in Pauls epistles to the Corinthians and Thessalonians.

Yes the new standard with God.

The bible should actually be re written to say that baby Jesus was taken by Joseph,to egypt AFTER the baby massacre,and Abraham retrieved Lot AFTER the judgement on the city,and God Took Noah away AFTER THE FLOOD.

That is how God ALWAYS WORKS,NEVER BEFORE,ALWAYS AFTER. THAT IS HIS ONLY METHOD.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#72
Any way you try to explain it, return then return again equals two returnings. That is not scriptural. Jesus didn't teach this.

mat 25 has Jesus gathering a bride then returning to his father's' house......NOT CONTINUING BACK TO THE DWELLING OF THE BRIDE

postrib is poorly thought out.

Oh,and it was Jesus himself that taught that.

Hint;harvest is 4 parts. 1 already happened ,first fruits,the main harvest is next,then the corners,and finally the gleaning.

You will never,ever see Jesus 1st miracle brought to the table by any doctrine other than the pre trib doctrine.


We literally own end times ...................
 
P

popeye

Guest
#73
A person can believe what they want, what irks me is the unfounded, strawman, and ad hominem attacks that only cloud the issue rather than seek if a position is scripturally backed.

I believe it is their frustration that we are 100% bible oriented with the pretrib doctrine.

That forces the opponent into a extra biblical debate. It is a diversion.

The strategy is,if they cannot debate the word,then discredit the adherents.

The bride/groom dimension,which we own,is the game changer that proves they have wasted their time with their "invincible" position.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#75
Yes the new standard with God.

The bible should actually be re written to say that baby Jesus was taken by Joseph,to egypt AFTER the baby massacre,and Abraham retrieved Lot AFTER the judgement on the city,and God Took Noah away AFTER THE FLOOD.

That is how God ALWAYS WORKS,NEVER BEFORE,ALWAYS AFTER. THAT IS HIS ONLY METHOD.
You really might want to consider aiming for a better job of delivering factiousness. You do leave a rather ambiguous conclusion.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#76
I'm sorry this is talking about 2 returnings and that is not scriptural. Christ is returning one more time at the end of time. That is scriptural
Pretribs believe this also. Rapture in 1 thes 4 is not a return to earth..
 
Aug 21, 2015
196
1
0
#77
I believe it is their frustration that we are 100% bible oriented with the pretrib doctrine.

That forces the opponent into a extra biblical debate. It is a diversion.

The strategy is,if they cannot debate the word,then discredit the adherents.

The bride/groom dimension,which we own,is the game changer that proves they have wasted their time with their "invincible" position.
Fine, believe what you want to and Ill do the same. Since this is a game to you
 
Last edited:
P

popeye

Guest
#78
Own end times? What does that mean?
We have probably 5 times the facets of the diamond as postribs. They only have "talking points" no in depth dimension of study. They ABSOLUTELY MUST change verses as more info develops.

case in point is the bride/groom dimension,the 4 parts to harvest,and the times of the gentiles ceasing.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#79
You really might want to consider aiming for a better job of delivering factiousness. You do leave a rather ambiguous conclusion.
Thanks for the tip.
 
Jun 23, 2015
1,990
37
0
#80
We have probably 5 times the facets of the diamond as postribs. They only have "talking points" no in depth dimension of study. They ABSOLUTELY MUST change verses as more info develops.

case in point is the bride/groom dimension,the 4 parts to harvest,and the times of the gentiles ceasing.
Who cares? Just be ready! Get others ready by spreading the good news!!! Thats all that matters. It seems these kind of discussions keep the chest puffed up. Eschatology has nothing to do with salvation . Just my 2 cents worth,....LOL