the rapture

[P1LGR1M]

I love this new doctrine.

You mean the one you are currently creating?

What's not to love? lol

Total thread killer.

On the contrary, you are providing excellent opportunity to deal with some of the errors some have concerning the Rapture, Tribulation, and Return of Christ.

Good job!

Wow,we are all off the hook.

Well...some of us, lol.

The AC,False prophet,beast,and Satan are ALL TAKEN (wicked taken first)

No, we see many die during the Tribulation, then the Antichrist and False Prophet are cast into Hell...


Revelation 19:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


...then we see those gathered against Christ destroyed (just like those in Noah and Lot's day)...


[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


...then we see Satan bound for a thousand years...


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


...then we see those among the believing that died at the hand of Satan and the Antichrist resurrected...


[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


It's all very simple to understand if we avoid imposing our own understanding into it. It follows a precise Timeline which, if we allow Scripture to simply speak....makes it very understandable.

If you do this, it will help you understand the Pre-Tribulation Rapture as it is taught by the Word of God.

Man,I love it .

If you get your understanding straight...you will.

This is why Paul spoke of comfort when teaching about the Rapture. We should love it, and we should live in expectation of the imminent Return of Christ, and our words and deeds should be fitting for those who understand that the Lord could call them up at any minute. This will encourage some to understand that every idle word will be taken into account on that day.

Unfortunately some will realize, when they find themselves in the Tribulation, that what they thought was wisdom on their parts was nothing more than a vitriolic sarcasm that actually butchered the Word of God and in no way resembled a godly approach the Biblical Doctrine that is relevant to Christ and His catching up of His Church.

We get off,with barely a scratch.!!!!

The Church will not even suffer a scratch from Tribulation events...we won't be here.

The scratches, bruises, and deaths we do suffer in this Age are largely dependent upon our lives and where we live. In many countries Christians are suffering persecution and being put to death, undergoing great tribulation, but...that does not mean they are in the Tribulation.

We are promised tribulation so long as we are in this world, the Church does not get a pass from suffering. However, for those of us that live in America we have a very sheltered life, not undergoing what some of our brethren in other parts of the world endure.

And God gets out of that costly marriage supper!!!;

What ineffable twaddle.

That is a WIN<>WIN!!!!!

Salvation in Christ, despite whether we endure hardship in the physical, is in fact a win, but, that win belongs to Christ, for He has overcome the world.

We have a responsibility, a debt, really, not to turn this into the mockery you are making of this great salvation. That is our reasonable service.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Oh ,and everybody has the HS!!!

If you would read what is said you would understand that in view is not everyone receiving the Holy Ghost, but everyone being ministered unto by the Holy Ghost, the Comforter.

This is in fact the very confusion which pits Calvinist against Arminian in a never ending feud between the two.

It is easily reconciled if they would simply acknowledge that the Comforter ministers to the Lost.

SAVED,UNSAVED,God truly is no respecter of persons

And that is a Scriptural truth. Sad to see you mock it.

No man will have an excuse when he stands before God, for God has revealed Himself to all men.

Your job, amigo, is to convey the Word of God, and to do so properly. Instead, you rant like a child and waste valuable time which could be better spent in at least...discussing the Doctrine of the Bible.

You perpetuate false doctrine, misconception, and dissension among the brethren.

And heathen have light,righteousness,and unbelievably are waiting for Jesus!!!!

Quote me saying that and I will show you just how lacking you are in discernment.

A WHOLE NEW ERA OF " truth" is upon us!!!!

Nope, as I said, just plain old fashioned ignorance of the Word of God, which is likely a result of spending more time perfecting sarcasm (which you have done a poor job at as well) rather than actually studying the relevant issues.

Have I said something that offends what your Pastor has taught you?

Er,uh deception

So address the Scripture and associated points.

You can't, though, which is why you resort to posting like this.

Shameful.


God bless.

 

[Stonemason]

There is no single "anti-christ" biblically. It is the "spirit of anti-christ", or those who deny Jesus. Everyone who denies Jesus is, within them, the spirit of anti-christ. This doesn't make them "evil" or somehow "great leaders of nations who will lead the world into problems", but rather the spirit of it is what "leads the world into problems". This isn't happening in the future, this is always happening.

edit: I should say, "it happens in the future but is not confined to the future". Of course what's happening now will continue to happen, as it has happened.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Wicked taken first.

That is your doctrine, not mine.

Beyond ridiculous.

Again, apt to describe your doctrine. lol

ALL FALSE DOCTRINE CARRIES WITH IT "THE IMPOSSIBLE".

So does the Truth: it is impossible for there to be a Post Tribulation Rapture, as it would not allow for the unbelieving offspring that joins ranks with Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

It's a simple point that requires more unbiblical assertions on the part of Post-Tribulation adherents to counter. And as I said before, I will not supply those equally erroneous assertions, but will be happy, if anyone cares to present them, to show why they are impossible as well.

Walk it through and it surpasses the bizarre.

What is bizarre is that you say you are a Pre-Tribulation believer, yet you rail against doctrine which supports the Pre-Tribulation View.

Apparently sound doctrine and discussion of doctrine takes a back seat to satisfying your need to rail.

That does surpass bizarre and heads straight into tragic.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

There is no single "anti-christ" biblically. It is the "spirit of anti-christ", or those who deny Jesus. Everyone who denies Jesus is, within them, the spirit of anti-christ. This doesn't make them "evil" or somehow "great leaders of nations who will lead the world into problems", but rather the spirit of it is what "leads the world into problems". This isn't happening in the future, this is always happening.

edit: I should say, "it happens in the future but is not confined to the future". Of course what's happening now will continue to happen, as it has happened.

There is the spirit of Antichrist and then there is the Antichrist, who is a person, a singular person depicted in many prophecies.

For example:


Matthew 24:15

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)


This signals the mid-point of the Tribulation.

We see that here as well:


Revelation 11:3-7

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


This is the time when this...


2 Thessalonians 2:3-9

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


We see that "that Wicked" will be revealed at some point in the future, and the simple fact is that the spirit of antichrist is already working in the world, even in John's day:


1 John 4:3

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


The ultimate denial of Christ will be effected by Antichrist when he sits in the Temple declaring himself to be God, Known as the Beast in Revelation, he will demand worship, yet his end is not the end of a "spirit of Antichrist," but Hell itself:


Revelation 19:20

King James Version (KJV)



[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


We see the Antichrist in Daniel as well, where again his emergence at the Mid-Point of the Seventieth Week is also mentioned:


Daniel 9:24-27

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]24 [/SUP]Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


No doubt about it, the Antichrist is a person that is seen even in the Old Testament, where we might see an application of near fulfillment in Antiochus Epiphanes, and even in Nero, but, The Antichrist which will be the final figure and fulfillment of all prophecy concerning him will be that man that arises during the seven year period of the Tribulation.


God bless.

 

[Stonemason]

Of all that, the only particular passage which supports the idea "there is An Antichrist person" is the passage from 2 Thessalonians, and I take it to be reflective of the hurt and insecurity in any given person's heart which would lead to doubt in God.

From Daniel, what incidents weren't already occurring in his time during the Babylonian exile, were fulfilled in the time of Jesus. Matthew referring to Daniel is... just Matthew referring to Daniel.

 

[P1LGR1M]

How do you guys make this stuff up? Do you have a political writer on retainer or something?

Christ's elect are shown going through the tribulation, so I didn't know you were better than them, excuse me. You must have some SECRET PROMISE the rest of Christ's Church doesn't know anything about. Oh... yeah, that's right, you have the promise of MEN that teach you will be taken in the secret rapture!!! a rapture that is nowhere written of in God's Word!
[/SIZE]

Denial of a "secret rapture" might sound like a good argument in regards to the Rapture of the Church, but, we can say with Biblical Authority that the Rapture will not be something understood by the unbelieving who enter into the Tribulation.


2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


So you see, we could say it is a secret occurrence to those who refused to obey the Gospel prior to the Tribulation.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Those who have rejected the Ministry of the Comforter will, at this time, be given strong delusion, and the truth will no longer be offered to them. The danger for the unbeliever who resists the Holy Ghost is that there is a line which can be crossed where God will give them over to a reprobate mind.

While I do not teach a "secret Rapture," I can point out to those who rely on this argument to support Post-Trib and A-mil views that when the Rapture occurs, to think that unbelievers, natural men, who cannot receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, would recognize what is taking place is absurd.

So there's your secret, my friend.

understand that the Lord taught a many/few ratio, so when the Rapture does take place, the number of Christians being caught up will hardly be an event which draws much notice. Many people die everyday, and when the Church is caught up, it is likely that it will be a very small number of the world's population.

Everyone remaining, everyone, will be unbelievers not privy to spiritual understanding. Those engaged in Christianity will be in a better place to begin putting things together, but, we have no idea how long it will be until this happens.

As the Seal Judgments are opened, conditions arise which will be prime for a political figure of some sort to step up to provide solutions, and one of the solutions that is a possibility is his explanation for the Rapture of the Church. But there need be no explanation, as it is highly unlikely that the Rapture will make the evening news, lol.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Of all that, the only particular passage which supports the idea "there is An Antichrist person" is the passage from 2 Thessalonians,

They all support the teaching of Scripture that there is a person who will be the final Antichrist.

As shown, the spirit of antichrist is already working in the world, and the man of sin is a future event not fulfilled in Paul's day, much less Jesus' Day.

But, it seems you have a spiritualized view of Scripture, so you can believe what you want about Antichrist and the spirit of Antichrist.

This thread deals with the Rapture, so I will ask if you have anything relevant to the OP you care to contribute?

and I take it to be reflective of the hurt and insecurity in any given person's heart which would lead to doubt in God.

Why would we who trust God's Word and take it at it's word...be insecure or hurt? lol

From Daniel, what incidents weren't already occurring in his time during the Babylonian exile, were fulfilled in the time of Jesus.

In your statement we can see a general acknowledgement of the fact that prophecy can be seen to have multiple applications, seeing you apply Daniel to both Daniel's day as well as Christ's.

What you cannot do, though, is present fulfillment of that which follows Christ's teaching in regards to the Abomination of desolation, nor show fulfillment of Paul's teaching in 2 Thessalonians concerning the Man of Sin or the Return of Christ.

If you note in 2 Thessalonians 2 what is in view is the Day of the Lord.

That has not happened yet.

We do not see in First Century events the Return of Christ, which negates the possibility that ultimate fulfillment of Prophecy has yet occurred.

Now, do you have anything relevant to the Rapture you would like to contribute, or are you going to derail the thread with your spiritualized version of Scripture?

And I have to get ready for work, but will check in briefly before I go.


God bless.

Matthew referring to Daniel is... just Matthew referring to Daniel.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Personally, I will not interpret the bible so as it be consequential in some "reward" or "being part of the in crowd".

Interpretation is not open to personal or private interpretation as you suggest, we are to understand it as it was given, not make a buffet of it from which one creates a personal belief system.

If the idea of "rapture" sits well with you, if this is the premise that brings you closer to Him, great. The bible speaks to many people in many ways.

You deny the Rapture?

This is without question one of the worst possible conclusions one can draw. It is clearly taught by Paul.

I have no intention to argue against what you have in that fashion, it's not productive.

It can be. You can test the beliefs you currently hold in light of Scripture. You have three beliefs which I see in your posts that I already see as faulty:

1. Scripture is a smorgasbord open to personal choice of what and how one believes it teaches;

2. There is no entity taught in Scripture that can be identified as the Antichrist;

3. There is no Rapture;

4. It is unproductive for anyone to debate Scripture.


On this last, we can see that Paul sets an example of disputing with others in regards to truth.

And we know that getting together to consider God's Word together is an ancient practice commended by God Himself:


Malachi 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

For me, though, to me, this line of "cleaving to God to be better rewarded" or "being in better position" is actually, particularly, more contrary to the intended message,

Who has said anything about this?

You are simply seeking to bring your contrived arguments to this thread, and that, my friend...is unproductive.

Why don't you start a thread about how you don't go to church and teach everyone can believe what they want, that there is no standard of absolute truth taught in Scripture?

I'm sure you will find it a very popular thread.

which I believe is to be "love for all".

And this is relevant to the Rapture...how?

We draw lines in the sand all the time by our nature,

Depends on whether we are yielding to the old or the new.

And this is relevant to the Rapture...how?

we don't need to cite the bible as more reason

So can we add "We don't need to cite the Bible" to the list above?

We do need to cite the Bible as an appeal to the only authority any doctrinal position can possibly hope to have.

And that is why there are so many passages quoted, lol.

And notice that they are primarily centered on the title of the OP, if you will.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by Stonemason

Matthew referring to Daniel is... just Matthew referring to Daniel.

Sorry, missed this point: actually, it is Christ Who is referring to Daniel. Matthew is just recording what He said.




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Also, I'm really not fond of peoples' use of the bible as a "crystal ball" or other "scrying device". Revelation is traditionally cited in this. Christians shouldn't be fortune-telling witches.

Nor should they be hostile to study of the Word of God, which is commanded.

Revelation is where we are told many things which will happen in the future:


Revelation 1:3

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


Revelation 1:19

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


Not our idea...God's.


God bless.

 

[popeye]

You mean the one you are currently creating?

What's not to love? lol




On the contrary, you are providing excellent opportunity to deal with some of the errors some have concerning the Rapture, Tribulation, and Return of Christ.

Good job!




Well...some of us, lol.




No, we see many die during the Tribulation, then the Antichrist and False Prophet are cast into Hell...


Revelation 19:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


...then we see those gathered against Christ destroyed (just like those in Noah and Lot's day)...


[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


...then we see Satan bound for a thousand years...


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


...then we see those among the believing that died at the hand of Satan and the Antichrist resurrected...


[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


It's all very simple to understand if we avoid imposing our own understanding into it. It follows a precise Timeline which, if we allow Scripture to simply speak....makes it very understandable.

If you do this, it will help you understand the Pre-Tribulation Rapture as it is taught by the Word of God.




If you get your understanding straight...you will.

This is why Paul spoke of comfort when teaching about the Rapture. We should love it, and we should live in expectation of the imminent Return of Christ, and our words and deeds should be fitting for those who understand that the Lord could call them up at any minute. This will encourage some to understand that every idle word will be taken into account on that day.

Unfortunately some will realize, when they find themselves in the Tribulation, that what they thought was wisdom on their parts was nothing more than a vitriolic sarcasm that actually butchered the Word of God and in no way resembled a godly approach the Biblical Doctrine that is relevant to Christ and His catching up of His Church.




The Church will not even suffer a scratch from Tribulation events...we won't be here.

The scratches, bruises, and deaths we do suffer in this Age are largely dependent upon our lives and where we live. In many countries Christians are suffering persecution and being put to death, undergoing great tribulation, but...that does not mean they are in the Tribulation.

We are promised tribulation so long as we are in this world, the Church does not get a pass from suffering. However, for those of us that live in America we have a very sheltered life, not undergoing what some of our brethren in other parts of the world endure.




What ineffable twaddle.


Oh,I see.

So the bible is wrong again.

"some wicked ate taken,some left behind."



Salvation in Christ, despite whether we endure hardship in the physical, is in fact a win, but, that win belongs to Christ, for He has overcome the world.

We have a responsibility, a debt, really, not to turn this into the mockery you are making of this great salvation. That is our reasonable service.


God bless.

Oh,I see

Some wicked stay behind.

Jesus will be happy for your amendments

 

[P1LGR1M]

Oh,I see

Some wicked stay behind.

Jesus will be happy for your amendments

Correction: all of the wicked are left behind when the Rapture occurs, and none of the wicked are left when the Lord Returns.

And that will be all for me on this forum, folks, I will be taking my leave and moving on.

While I have not reached the thousand I usually stick to, I have decided to reserve a few that I might pop in on occasion for an occasional post.

I'll address those posts in response to my own at that occasion, Lord willing.


God bless.

 

[popeye]

That is your doctrine, not mine.




Again, apt to describe your doctrine. lol




So does the Truth: it is impossible for there to be a Post Tribulation Rapture, as it would not allow for the unbelieving offspring that joins ranks with Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

It's a simple point that requires more unbiblical assertions on the part of Post-Tribulation adherents to counter. And as I said before, I will not supply those equally erroneous assertions, but will be happy, if anyone cares to present them, to show why they are impossible as well.




What is bizarre is that you say you are a Pre-Tribulation believer, yet you rail against doctrine which supports the Pre-Tribulation View.

Apparently sound doctrine and discussion of doctrine takes a back seat to satisfying your need to rail.

That does surpass bizarre and heads straight into tragic.


God bless.

Pretrib is easy to defend.

Been doing just that for 30 years.

I am sure you have your reasons for the creativity of mat 25.

Virgin= heathens?
Unsaved waiting for Jesus?
Saved ordering unsaved to buy oil?
Unsaved. Getting MORE HS INSTEAD OF SALVATION?
UNSAVED with light,and a measure of the HS?

All products of your mat 25 disguises.
It is amazing your cunning additions to a no brainer

But even worse,you keep up the charade.

 

[popeye]

Correction: all of the wicked are left behind when the Rapture occurs, and none of the wicked are left when the Lord Returns.

And that will be all for me on this forum, folks, I will be taking my leave and moving on.

While I have not reached the thousand I usually stick to, I have decided to reserve a few that I might pop in on occasion for an occasional post.

I'll address those posts in response to my own at that occasion, Lord willing.


God bless.

The bride /groom concept is a game changer.

You can side step it. You cannot linger in the light of it.

You need to take leave,as you say,and incorporate that dimension into your deal.

Otherwise you will be in a endless rabbit trail of creativity.

 

[DP]

What spirit is it that taught you there are ten foolish virgins?

You're right, my mistake, I meant five foolish virgins.

Okay, I give up, you cannot understand the relevance.

I understood your intention, but it still was a change of subject.

I have provided enough Scripture to expect a response, rather than all of this talk which is nothing more than evasion.

Look up tu quoque, lol.

Well, you said this, which is nothing more than an affirmation on your part:

But the fact is that Paul taught a Pre-Tribulation view. We do not have to look to the 18th century for this truth, we simply acknowledge that Paul made it clear that the Church will be raptured as a whole, both living and dead, and the events described by John show that the Church is not found in the events when they unfold.

Reason why that is just an affirmation of something supposedly being true, is because of that first statement there. I can just as easily say, "But the fact is that Paul taught a Post-Tribulation view," so what would make my statement like that an less valid? See, you didn't include actual Scripture there to prove what you believe Paul said.

Now your statement that Paul taught Christ's Church will be gathered as a whole, I definitely agree with that, because that is written. But Paul does not show that gathering anywhere being PRIOR to the tribulation events, but after those events. Paul even gave us the specific order in 2 Thess.2 that a great falling away and the false messiah appearing in Jerusalem is required to occur FIRST. And since that is a fact per Paul, it also means another temple will be built in the last days prior to Christ's coming, and that false one will proclaim himself as God sitting in it, and deceive many, which are events hard-linked to the great tribulation timing of Matt.24 and Mark 13, and even the Books of Daniel and Revelation.

It's rather simple: the dead in Christ are raised in glorified bodies, then those still alive are glorified...and both are caught up.

What does that have to do with my point?

Again, if all the believers are glorified...there are no physical believers left that fulfill what has to take place not only in regards to what Revelation 20 states (a multitude of unbelievers join ranks with the recently released Satan), but with Old Testament Prophecy concerning the Millennial Kingdom:

Like I said, you don't understand what the resurrection is per Paul in 1 Cor.15. I'd say you've never understood Isaiah 25 either where Paul was pulling that idea from of death being swallowed up in victory. This is probably going to be a revelation to you.

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV


What do you think those phrases are about with, "the face of the covering cast over all people" and "the vail that is spread over all nations"... in relation to that "He will swallow up death in victory"?

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,


29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Jesus showed us what will occur on that day of His coming. BOTH, the "resurrection of life" and... the "resurrection of damnation" occur on that SAME day. That's not the time of God's GWT Judgment either. It's the first day of Christ's Millennial reign with His elect over that "resurrection of damnation".

As Paul said, as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, so does that include the wicked? Yes, because have they not been born with the image of the earthy also? Yes. Thus 1 Cor.15 with many assume... that resurrection is for Christ's Church only, when Paul actually went into greater detail in the Greek about the change of corruption to a body of incorruption, and what's mortal (soul) putting on immortality through Christ Jesus.

Those of the "resurrection of damnation" will still have liable to die mortal souls when they are raised, having rejected Christ. Those in Christ Jesus will have immortal souls that can never... die when raised. Thus when Jesus comes with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth, ALL upon the earth will be changed at an instant, at the twinkling of an eye (the similar idea for the wicked like God's "at an instant, suddenly" of Isaiah 29 with comparison of the wicked suddenly waking up from a dream).

But I'm aware you've been wrongly taught the false idea that ONLY those of Christ's Church are changed at Paul's twinkling of an eye, and everyone else still left in their flesh bodies. Those false prophets have to teach that idea you have, otherwise it would confuse their pre-trib timing for the rapture they devised.

Zechariah 13

King James Version (KJV)

1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.


The simple truths to understand, my friend, is that not one of the unbelieving enter into that Kingdom, all will have to be born again. We also know that there will be unbelievers, as this Prophecy shows, and the only place they can come from is that they are the descendants of those that live through the Tribulation.

Then you didn't understand Rev.22:14-15 from our Lord Jesus, where He showed the wicked outside the gates of the holy city while His saints are allowed inside and have right to the tree of life. That probably you also missed what our Lord Jesus taught about those cast to the "outer darkness" at His coming. That's what those Rev.22:14-15 are about for the those wicked. And Rev.20:9 reveals the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is upon this EARTH, not up in the sky.

That Zech.13 chapter contains timing about God's River of the Waters of Life that will be established in Jerusalem. It's one of several OT references showing us WHERE God's River will be established ON EARTH after Christ's coming.

The Rule of Christ will be worldwide, as indicated here:


Zechariah 14:16-19

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You are grasping at straws to maintain your doctrine.

Yes, that is about the wicked existing in the time after Christ's second coming, those are the "resurrection of damnation" too that are raised from the dead on the day of Jesus' coming to gather His Church, just like Jesus showed us in the John 5:28-29 Scripture. If you think that's grasping at straws, it only reveals that The LORD did not give this simple matter to you to understand yet. But you will... know it in time, I can guarantee that, you just may have to wait until His coming.

So everyone in the Millennial Kingdom is glorified?

Like I said you don't understand what the resurrection is.

Answer me this, if the mere idea of being resurrected means to be 'glorified' as you say, then how is it that God's Word could even declare the existence of "the resurrection unto damnation"? How could our Lord Jesus even give examples like the rich man of Luke 16 who died, and he was taken to hell?

Obviously, you have not been taught what all Paul covered about the resurrection in 1 Cor.15.

Which brings us back to the question...who exactly is it that rebels against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom?

Well, it ain't going to be people in flesh bodies doing that. It will be those of the "resurrection of damnation" and the leftovers of the nations that are ALSO changed at the twinkling of an eye on the day of Christ's return. When Jesus comes on the day of The Lord, man's existence with a flesh type body will be OVER, done. The wicked during Christ's thousand years reign will have a body of incorruption but still with liable to perish souls, i.e, still subject to the "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire" after God's final Judgment.

And the obvious fallacy is your belief that the Millennial Kingdom consists only of glorified saints.

This demands that believers rebel against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

What utter nonsense.

I never said all will be glorified at Christ's coming, because in reality per Paul, that glorification is about putting on immortality through Christ Jesus. The wicked will not be doing that, but they will have a body of incorruption though, which is the image of the heavenly that even Satan's angels have in the heavenly dimension. You simply reveal you don't know the difference between the two dimensions of existence spoken of in God's Word.

Here is more prophecy that shows that the Millennial Kingdom is physical:


Isaiah 65:20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


Do glorified saints die? Of course not. Of course the Church will not be marrying, lol, they will be glorified, but, those that live through the Tribulation are not. They live and are gathered at the Sheep and Goat Judgment, and enter into that Kingdom.

And they are the ones whose offspring rebel against God.


Continued...

That Isaiah 65:20 verse is an expression, because NO ONE will die during Christ's future thousand years reign. That is how those nations exist at the beginning of the thousand years, and also to the end of the thousand years when Satan is loosed one final time.

You simply show a carnal thinking about that future time, comparing the things of this present world with that future world to come, that doesn't work.

 

[Stonemason]

This is without question one of the worst possible conclusions one can draw. It is clearly taught by Paul.

No, sir. Paul did not. It is the culmination of interpretation by a handful of 17th century thinkers.

I'm not going to sift through all of this. I did read it and my statement still stands, it's a matter of interpretation which I do not appreciate. I understand the thread is about "rapture". I've learned a little more what and why people think of it by reading this thread and I'm appreciative.

Look, I can, just as they, pick random, disassociated text out of context and come up with some grand fanciful story about the future. I will not do that. People do not deserve that done by me any more than they deserve what these people have done in the sense of this "rapture". The Bible is inspired. Cotton Mather, Robert Maton, Nathaniel Homes, John Browne, Thomas Vincent, Henry Danvers, and William Sherwin are not.

But whatever. If belief in this brings people to God, I guess more power to them. Belief Jesus appeared to Indians brings some people to God. Belief the Arc of the Covenant is still kept in a shrine in Ethiopia brings people to God. Belief buying some guy a jet plane brings people to God. Belief in David Koresh brought some people to God. That's what's most important, right?

 

[Stonemason]

After further research of the above-mentioned men, I'd like to also mention most were puritans, and literary proponents, no less advocates, of the 17th century witch trials, which were deplorable practices of murder.

 

[notuptome]

No, sir. Paul did not. It is the culmination of interpretation by a handful of 17th century thinkers.

I'm not going to sift through all of this. I did read it and my statement still stands, it's a matter of interpretation which I do not appreciate. I understand the thread is about "rapture". I've learned a little more what and why people think of it by reading this thread and I'm appreciative.

Look, I can, just as they, pick random, disassociated text out of context and come up with some grand fanciful story about the future. I will not do that. People do not deserve that done by me any more than they deserve what these people have done in the sense of this "rapture". The Bible is inspired. Cotton Mather, Robert Maton, Nathaniel Homes, John Browne, Thomas Vincent, Henry Danvers, and William Sherwin are not.

But whatever. If belief in this brings people to God, I guess more power to them. Belief Jesus appeared to Indians brings some people to God. Belief the Arc of the Covenant is still kept in a shrine in Ethiopia brings people to God. Belief buying some guy a jet plane brings people to God. Belief in David Koresh brought some people to God. That's what's most important, right?

Well each must speak from what is in their heart. If you have no interest in being caught up together with Christ then I guess you have no interest.

This world is not my home. I groan with all of creation to be with my Lord and Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stonemason]

Well each must speak from what is in their heart. If you have no interest in being caught up together with Christ then I guess you have no interest.

I have every interest in "being caught up together with Christ".