the rapture

[DP]

Good day thebesttrees,

Sixth Seal:
"For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”

Seventh Trumpet:
"The nations were angry,and your wrath has come.

Seventh Bowls:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed"

So, we have the wrath of God mentioned in each set of the seven plagues, which are the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. To confirm that that they are all of God's judgments, the seven bowls are treated as a unit which are referred to as the "Last Plagues" which will complete God's wrath. Therefore, since the bowls are referred to as being last, then other plagues of judgment would have to be first or prior to the bowls, which would be the seals and trumpets.

This time of wrath that is coming will be unprecedented, as Jesus referred to that time, with the events of the beast and the false prophet included, as "a time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again."

Already you've made an error, for that unprecedented time as such that the world has never seen is actually the great tribulation timing PRIOR to God's wrath upon the wicked:

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV


The wicked are in power for that tribulation time, which is NOT the time of God's Wrath. You folks don't even recognize that confusing the tribulation timing with God's Wrath is like saying God's Wrath is upon His elect servants there!

 

[DP]

Good evening pottersclay,

Yeah, I would have to agree with you as that seems to be the case. I would rather that there be unity regarding scripture, but that doesn't ever seem to be the case. All we can do is present the scriptures and pray. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." That being said and without any other presentation of scripture on their part, Jesus is not going to build his church and then send it through his time of wrath! Since the entire earth is going to be exposed to God's wrath, the plagues of the two witnesses, as well as the events of the beast and the false prophet, there will be no where to be protected on earth and therefore, the Church will be removed prior to that first seal being opened. The only groups that will be protected will be the woman/Israel who will be cared for by God out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years, as well as the 144,000. The great tribulation saints aren't even protected during the time of God's wrath, which chapter 7:16 demonstrates. All you can do is continue to contend for the truth and pray that God would open their eyes.

I wouldn't go pumping yourselves up just yet, because so far, those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory that have posted their evidence so far has been destroyed by actual direct proof against it in God's Word.

 

[DP]

Wow I messed up the formatting somehow. Here it is again lol.

Who is the beast 666? L. Ray Smith - THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part 13

Exposing the secret rapture theory www.bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

Latter is a good link, but he could have been more effective with it by being more concise and short.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

Revelation places Christ's Return in Chapter 19.

You have put the horse in the cart and are dragging it backwards.

Then you simply limit your thinking ability, because the wicked on the 6th seal wanting to hide from the wrath of the Lamb is an event that occurs on the day of Christ's return. It aligns with the events of Christ's coming in Rev.19.

No, it simply points out recognition of God's wrath being poured out.

The Sixth Seal Judgment is not when Christ returns. He does not return until after the Seventh Vial Judgment is poured out upon the earth.

In Rev.11:14 forward with the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe timing, you won't find a direct Scripture telling us Jesus' coming is right then either, but it's not needed to know that's what happened at that point of all the kingdoms of this world becoming those of The Father and His Son, and the time of His wrath there also, and the rewards handed out to the saints, etc.

The Seventh Seal is the time when the Seven Trumpet Judgments are sounded, and it is clear that the Lord has not returned at that point.
We see this...


Revelation 11:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


The Seven Trumpets come after the Seal Judgments, there is no way to make them the same or concurrent with the Seal Judgments.

This is the time in which God throws down all authority on earth, and the events which follow are according to God, not Satan.

And Christ does not return here.



[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


This is a precursor to the Millennial Kingdom, and we know it is not the time of the Great White Throne simply because there is much more that will unfold after this point.

Now let's look at what is said just after this point, which, by the way, is the mid point of the Tribulation, where we see the forty two month ministry of the Two Witnesses end and the beginning of the forty two months Antichrist is allowed to run rampant:


Revelation 12:10-12

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


In v.10 we see a statement similar to that in Revelation 11, which indicates God taking back the earth to Himself. Now notice in v.12 that it is at this point that the Devil comes down having great wrath, yet for all his bluster...events are still in control of Sovereign God.

The Second Woe ends with the death of the Two Witnesses, their rapture, and the sounding of the Third Woe. This yields to the Vial Judgments which are clearly not the same judgments as the Seal and Trumpet Judgments.

The ministry of Satan and Antichrist coincides with the preservation of part of Israel in the wilderness:


Revelation 12

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Now consider the ministry of Satan and the Antichrist:

Revelation 13

King James Version (KJV)


1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


That's three and a half years.

In Chapter Fourteen we see another statement that some have interpreted to mean Christ has at this point returned...


Revelation 14

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


Yet if we continue in this chapter we read...


[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


...which shows that people are still capable of receiving the mark of the Beast, and that their fate is eternal wrath, though this does not nullify the fact that the Tribulation is the wrath of God poured out.

We then read...


[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Which also shows a continuation of events.

And what follows is the wrath of God being effected on the earth:



[SUP]18 [/SUP]And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


And we next see the preparation for the Vial Judgments:


Revelation 15

King James Version (KJV)


15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.



Look at the link, DP, and understand that here Scripture distinguishes between the Judgments that preceded these, and those that are about to be unleashed by God, because the Judgments are God's judgments, God's wrath upon the wicked, not the Devil's.

These are the Seven Last Plagues, not the same judgments of the Seals and the Trumpets.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

This speaks of the judgments unleashed by God which follow the Seal Judgments.

Seems to me if this is the Lord's Return it would be the Angels they would seek to hide from. According to your doctrine.

I'd hate to think that is how you approach study in the OT prophets,

It's just a comment based on your own doctrine. You merge and blend Rapture and Return passages which demand that the Church be gathered by the Angels, because when Christ returns it is angels that gather the elect:


Matthew 13:38-40

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]38 [/SUP]The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

[SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.



Angels gather at the end of this Age, whereas in the Rapture Christ Himself gathers the Church, both dead and living, which is a point you seem to dance around, which you cannot reconcile to your Post-Trib view.

because Christ's Revelation is laid out in a similar style of events moving very fast in the past, present, and future.

I agree. Shame you confuse the events.

You have sought to spiritualize the events and make them the same, which hinders you from actually understanding Revelation as it is presented.

The Rev.7 chapter is a change of subject from the seals.

Not really, it simply gives us background information to the events.

It is about God sealing His servants before allowing the four winds to blow (do you know where that four winds idea was first written?). How is it your mind does not allow you to recognize that change of subject in Rev.7?

If you think there is Old Testament Prophecy that is relevant, by all means...post it.

Most of your responses are simply a lot of opinion that is irrelevant to the discussion.

There is no "change of subject," everything in the events is related.

Well, here is something to study:


Revelation 11:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


If you'll notice this is said between the Second and Third Woe. That is, the 6th and 7th Trumpet Judgments, which follows the Seal Judgments. Now...whose wrath is it in view?

The 3rd Woe starts with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, just as the previous Woes do with their trumpets.

The 3rd Woe is a woe upon the wicked with God's cup of wrath poured out upon them on the day of Jesus' coming.

But the Lord doesn't return here.

That is clear in the events which follow.

If you had done your homework in the OT prophets, you would have known those events are about the "day of the Lord", and they occur very quickly.

Let me show you a little of my homework, DP:


Daniel 12:7-12

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]7 [/SUP]And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



Note that here we see from the time of the Abomination of Desolation, which marks the Antichrist's reign of terror, there is given three periods, the first 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days, then 1290 days, then 1335 days, which is a seventy five day extension over the 1260 days, or forty two month ministry of Satan and Antichrist.

This coincides with the Lord's teaching in Matthew 24:


Matthew 24:15-21

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

[SUP]21[/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


This coincides with the murder and Rapture of the Two Witnesses, at which point we pick up the ministry of Satan and Antichrist:


Revelation 13

King James Version (KJV)


1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.



The murder of the Two Witnesses occurs during the Second Woe, and it is at this point Paul's Prophecy of Antichrist begins:


2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


It's not possible to have Antichrist standing in the Temple proclaiming Himself God while the Two Witnesses minister, and Revelation makes it clear that no man can harm them while they minister.

So the progression of events, which is clearly laid out in Revelation for you to understand, is that the Tribulation begins with the Seal Judgments, progress to the Trumpet Judgments, during which, at the Sixth Trumpet, the Second Woe, the Two Witnesses are murdered and raptured, at which time the forty two month reign of terror of the Antichrist begins. This lasts forty two months, at the end of which time the Antichrist and False Prophet are cast into Hell (The Lake of Fire), and Satan is bound.

Now, go back up to Daniel and let's consider that 75 days: it is the period in which the establishing of the Kingdom takes place. It is during this time the Angels gather the Elect (the saved who are still alive) and the Lost, and the Sheep and Goat Judgment take place, at which time all that are not known of God are destroyed and go into eternal judgment (though not into Hell yet).

Now, we go to Revelation 20 to see the loosing of Satan:

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



Now think back to that 75 days: this is the time Satan has to organize the wicked who rebel against God at this time.

And those he gathers to himself are physical descendants of the physical believers who are the Sheep of Matthew 25.

Again, your Post-Tribulation Doctrine leaves no-one physically alive to bring about these rebels who gather unto Satan.

So as far as homework goes, I have done mine in the Old Testament Prophecy, and again, if you think there is something relevant, more than vague references would be appreciated.

Post the Scripture.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Here is another passage to consider:

Don't stop at Rev.15, because Rev.16 is where the Vials are laid out.

Don't stop at Revelation 15?

How about actually taking into consideration the Scripture you were just given, instead of evading it?

Here it is again:


Revelation 15

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.



These are clearly different Judgments, and the distinction between the Trumpet and Vial Judgments have already been given, but let's look at them again:


Revelation 8:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.



Revelation 16:3

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


During the Trumpet Judgments, a third of the life in the sea dies. In the Vial Judgment...all life in the sea dies.

Quite a significant difference, no?

And if you look on the 6th Vial, Jesus is warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief".

Which is another indication He did not Return during the Sixth Seal Judgment.

It's because His one and only time of return and gathering of His Church is on the very next 7th Vial, because that is when He comes to pour His wrath upon the wicked on this earth.

Sorry, no, He has been pouring out His wrath the entire time of the Tribulation.

That wrath is finished at the pouring out of the Seventh Vial, and there is still a period that follows this Last Plague, which is described in Chapter Eighteen.

And when the Last Plague is poured, then...


Revelation 16:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


...it is done.

In ch.18 we see the destruction of Babylon, and in ch.19 we then see...the Return of Christ.

That's what the battle of Armageddon is about, which aligns with the events of Ezekiel 39.

I agree, Ezekiel 39 describes the Supper of the Great God...which takes place in ch.19, not during the Sixth Seal, and not during the Sixth Trumpet, but after the Last Plague is poured out on the earth, that is...the Seventh Vial Judgment.

You have, because you refuse to see the weakness of the Post-Tribulation View and just how conflicting that is with what Scripture teaches, and your enmity against the Pre-Tribulation View...imposed into Scripture doctrine which is easily seen as conflicting and irreconcilable to the events which are clearly laid out for us in Revelation.

Well, that is not surprising, because it is typical for many Post Tribulation believers to be rude and vitriolic, which is likely due to the fact that their doctrine sits unsettled inside of them, and the Pre-Tribulation View disrupts what they want to believe.

Your doctrine is loose, and you have a long way to go to show I am an unsaved troll, my friend.


God bless.

The doctrine you hold to is just a choice from men that you've made.

On the contrary, it is simply what Revelation teaches.

The Rapture of the Church does not occur at the end of the Tribulation...this is an impossibility. Eisegeting a Return of Christ into Chapter 6 is the end product of both Reformation and Catholic historicism, and it is pure fantasy. You cannot reconcile a Post-Tribulation view to Revelation, period.

And again, we usually see Post-Tribulation believers resort to arguing their Darby fascinations and unleashing personal attack...

...because they cannot debate the Scripture to prove their position.

Shame, shame...

You can't support it from Scripture without twisting Scripture to try and force it into God's Word.

If you would refrain from all of the extra-biblical nonsense you engage is, you will see that not only is the Pre-Tribulation supported by Scripture...it is the only reasonable view.

If it were a valid doctrine per God's Word, then you would be able to explain why that event of Christ's wrath is shown in the 6th Seal with the wicked wanting to hide:

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb":


17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

I've already explained it: it is a recognition of men that the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth, rather than the usual conflict that arises from natural phenomena (astrological events) and War.

Again, it is sad that unbelievers understand this but professing Christians...do not.

Another weakness in your doctrine is to make the Day of the Lord something that is a one-time event. The Day of the Lord is the Tribulation itself, my friend:


Joel 1:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the Lord your God, and cry unto the Lord,

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.


Joel 2:10-11

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]10 [/SUP]The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


I would recommend for you, and everyone, study of the Day of the Lord, so that it might be understood that the Day of the Lord refers to any visitation of God in which we usually see...judgment. And that judgment itself is the Day of the Lord. And while we can view His Return as the Day of the Lord, we do not have to exclude the events which lead up to that Day.

Because you refuse to accept the simplicity of that Scripture that God's wrath "is come" at that point, you instead show you put your trust in man, and not God.

What is refused is the fact that we clearly see that the wrath of God is poured out on men in the Tribulation.


1 Thessalonians 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

[SUP]9[/SUP]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


If you will note that when the Day of the Lord comes...it is said to be destruction coming upon them. This follows Paul's teaching that the entire Church will be raptured, both dead and alive. That leaves no-one to repopulate the earth and produce those that rebel against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

The Day of the Lord is the Wrath of God poured out on the earth, and we see that throughout the events of Revelation while the Tribulation is going on.

And I will end this response with the Last Plague:


Revelation 15:6-8

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


Your denial that the Judgments are the Wrath of God is necessitated by your refusal to examine your own doctrine and see the weakness and conflict you create with it.

Christ has not returned at this point and it is not until these Last Plagues are unleashed that we see Him Return.

Now, I will not respond to your Darby arguments, they are weak, slanderous, and unbiblical. I will not waste my time trying to discuss Scripture with you if you refuse to actually address the Scripture.

You call the repopulation of the earth a doctrine of men, but the fact is it is Biblical Doctrine, one which your doctrine cannot reconcile, so I suggest that you give it some consideration so that you might begin to understand the Timeline of Events, which you have so confused.


God bless.

 

[popeye]

Wow I messed up the formatting somehow. Here it is again lol.

Who is the beast 666? L. Ray Smith - THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part 13

Exposing the secret rapture theory www.bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

Take your power points one at a time and show via scripture how the cancel the pretrb rapture.

 

[popeye]

Thanks for being honest about that.




God bless.

You do realize you are agreeing that you Do in fact, IGNORE the verses where the righteous are taken first

Wow.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

You give the proof with your posts.

A few exchanges and you have already deemed me unsaved, lol. Yeah, you really show you have the love of Christ in your heart.

Not being able to recognize the simplicity in God's Holy Writ, like what I showed with Christ's wrath on the 6th Seal, is a sign of listening to another spirit. If you remain listening to that other spirit, then what makes you think that won't put you with the ten foolish virgins?

What spirit is it that taught you there are ten foolish virgins?

It's

not irrelevant. It shows that a doctrinal view not expressly stated by the Apostles can arise at a later date in the Church.

Yes, you bringing up a different subject there was irrelevant to the discussion of the pre-trib rapture theory. And I actually do... read Christ's Apostles teaching the idea of a triune Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Can you not count to 3?

Okay, I give up, you cannot understand the relevance.

But the fact is that Paul taught a Pre-Tribulation view. We do not have to look to the 18th century for this truth, we simply acknowledge that Paul made it clear that the Church will be raptured as a whole, both living and dead, and the events described by John show that the Church is not found in the events when they unfold.

Do you know what an affirmation statement is? It's a proposed statement of fact, without actual support as fact. That's all you're doing there. Just saying something is so does not make it so per God's Word. Beating on the pulpit while making affirmations doesn't prove anything either, except that you're able to beat on the pulpit.

I have provided enough Scripture to expect a response, rather than all of this talk which is nothing more than evasion.

Look up tu quoque, lol.

Where do you think these people...


....

...come from?

The descendants of glorified Saints?


Stop and think about it: if the rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation, there are no physical believers left to repopulates the earth and provide these unbelievers at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

So as I said, the Pre-Tribulation View is the only reasonable view to adopt.

That kind of reasoning is defective, because, you show you do not actually understand... what the idea of being "caught up" in 1 Thess.4 means.

It's rather simple: the dead in Christ are raised in glorified bodies, then those still alive are glorified...and both are caught up.

What does that have to do with my point?

Again, if all the believers are glorified...there are no physical believers left that fulfill what has to take place not only in regards to what Revelation 20 states (a multitude of unbelievers join ranks with the recently released Satan), but with Old Testament Prophecy concerning the Millennial Kingdom:


Zechariah 13

King James Version (KJV)

1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.


The simple truths to understand, my friend, is that not one of the unbelieving enter into that Kingdom, all will have to be born again. We also know that there will be unbelievers, as this Prophecy shows, and the only place they can come from is that they are the descendants of those that live through the Tribulation.

Those events at Rev.20:7-9 occur upon the earth. That "camp of the saints" is where our Lord Jesus and His elect will reign from over those nations outside the city for that "thousand years". That's why The Father in Heaven rains down fire burning those wicked up when they try to come up against that camp of the saints.

The Rule of Christ will be worldwide, as indicated here:


Zechariah 14:16-19

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


You are grasping at straws to maintain your doctrine.

So what KIND of body are those saints in while there upon the earth at that "camp of the saints"? If you believe God's Word about the idea of a rapture at all, then you should understand they are in their resurrection bodies at Christ's coming, for that is when we are changed to the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, on the last trumpet. Did you not know that the resurrection body can walk and live upon this earth, and eat man's food???

So everyone in the Millennial Kingdom is glorified?

Which brings us back to the question...who exactly is it that rebels against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom?

Have you even forgotten what Jesus said about the resurrection, that they don't marry nor take in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven? Your re-population of the earth idea with physical bodies is a doctrine of flesh from men; it is especially a Jewish Talmudic tradition.

And the obvious fallacy is your belief that the Millennial Kingdom consists only of glorified saints.

This demands that believers rebel against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

What utter nonsense.

Here is more prophecy that shows that the Millennial Kingdom is physical:


Isaiah 65:20

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


Do glorified saints die? Of course not. Of course the Church will not be marrying, lol, they will be glorified, but, those that live through the Tribulation are not. They live and are gathered at the Sheep and Goat Judgment, and enter into that Kingdom.

And they are the ones whose offspring rebel against God.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

No unbelievers will enter into that Kingdom:


Matthew 13:47-48

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP]Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

[SUP]48 [/SUP]Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.


This is speaking of the gathering that Angels do when the Kingdom is established, and Christ speaks more in-depth in Matthew 25.

The Matt.25 separation between Christ's sheep and the goats He does on the day of His coming, at the start of that future "thousand years" of Rev.20. That's when that "camp of the saints" on earth is established with His de facto reign over the nations with a rod of iron there with His elect. Have you not read about that in the OT prophet Ezekiel?

Please. If you have a relevant passage from the Old Testament you think denies anything that I have presented, please present it. Vague references are the trick of shysters.

The point here is that nothing that offends enters the Kingdom, and that is exactly what the Sheep and Goat judgment show. That is the point in Luke 17 where those taken are taken in judgment and their physical bodies become fodder for carrion fowl.

Your doctrine takes into consideration...only part of the Scripture.

You stop before the teaching is finished.

Keep reading into Matthew 25.

What? Are you referring to Matt.25:46 with the goats going into everlasting punishment? Have you forgotten the events of Rev.20 already, the time of God's Great White Throne Judgment not being until AFTER the thousand years are over? Just because our Lord Jesus didn't specifically mention that "thousand years" period within Matt.25 doesn't mean it won't happen like He revealed later through John in Rev.20. Not being able to understand that is like throwing away His Revelation He gave us through Apostle John. Even Paul showed he was familiar with a time of Christ's future reign over the nations prior to God's Eternity (1 Cor.15:23-28).

Just because they go into everlasting punishment does not mean they are cast into the Lake of Fire. All who die outside of Christ go into everlasting punishment.

You are denying what the text teaches, which is that when Christ Returns He will separate the believers from the unbelievers, the unbelievers are destroyed and the believers enter the Kingdom. It's such a simple teaching, but, your doctrine necessitates you confuse it to maintain your Post-Tribulation View.

I am confident my doctrine bears out Scriptural teaching, and I do not stop before getting halfway through what is given us in regards to the rapture, Tribulation, and Return of Christ.

You keep making affirmations with no Scriptural proof. So how am I to take you seriously? I'm like those of Berea; I don't just take other's word for it like you do.

Great, my Berean friend, you can address the Scripture and see if those be true or not.

You can start with explaining your doctrine that everyone in the Millennial Kingdom is glorified.

You explain how the entire Church can be glorified at the end of the Tribulation and Revelation 20 still be fulfilled.

If I took the time to explain that to you per Scripture, you wouldn't believe it because of your listening to another spirit. You have to show trust in God's Word AS WRITTEN first, for me to go into all that. So far, you've only posted Scripture that doesn't support your pre-trib rapture view, while making simple affirmations that it does.

The Spirit I am listening to is the Spirit of Prophecy.

That is why my Doctrine is consistent with Scripture and yours has to nullify much and place things out of their proper order.

Like Christ returning at the Sixth Seal and everyone in the Millennial Kingdom being glorified.

Absolutely ridiculous.

The Millennial Kingdom will be made up of physical believers that live through the Tribulation (the Sheep of Matthew 25), from whom the descendants that rebel against God come from.

Only Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of the Tribulation...not the entire Church, both dead and alive as Paul taught in regards to the Rapture.

See, that's a man-made idea dreamed up to try and give support for the pre-trib theory.

It's right there in Scripture and has been presented several times.

The Sheep are physically alive when they enter into the Kingdom and most will acknowledge that simple truth.

Christ's sheep represent His Church, all of those who believe on The Father through His Son's Blood shed on the cross. Or did you not understand what our Lord Jesus said about His sheep in John 10???

I agree that those saved in the Tribulation are the People of God, no question, but that does not mean they are part of the Church that is Raptured.

They are physical people:


Ezekiel 39:8-12

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.


...and those physical believers will be picking up the carcasses of the unbelieving destroyed in the Tribulation.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

John Darby in the 1830's is who fabricated that idea, by his theory of Dispensationalism. He taught the idea of "tribulation saints" as those who come to believe on Christ during the tribulation. He also taught that Israel will be established on earth in the flesh during Christ's "thousand years" reign while the Church only is resurrected and living in Heaven.

But his ideas on that are false, and are only fabricated to try and create support for the pre-trib rapture idea. He had to create those ideas, because both OT and NT Scripture is clear about God's re-establishing all 12 tribes of Israel again in the lands of promise with Christ's promise to His Apostles that they would sit upon thrones judging over the 12 tribes, and there's especially a lot of OT Scripture that bears that re-establishing in final, so Darby knew he would have looked like a fool rejecting all that Biblical evidence about the re-establishing of all 12 tribes of Israel.

Go find someone who thinks any of this is relevant to Scripture.

Address the Scripture presented and keep your slanderous deflection to yourself. I am not interested in Darby, but Scripture.

Those of the whole... Church that remain faithful to the end of the tribulation are gathered by Christ Jesus with His asleep saints on the day of His coming.

Right, you are saying that those who live through the Tribulation are glorified at the Rapture.

Not possible, sorry.

As I said, your doctrine is conflicting and necessitates nullification of Prophecy. And that is precisely what you do.

That specifically was Apostle Paul's message in 2 Thessalonians 2, as some had crept in among those at Thessalonica and had confused the timing of his message of 1 Thess.4.

On the contrary, Paul reminds them he had already taught them they should not be concerned that they were in the Day of the Lord. They thought they had missed the Rapture because they thought the tribulation they suffered was The Tribulation.

Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to Jerusalem with ALL HIS SAINTS.

And then He judges among those still alive.

The Rapture precedes the Return of Christ, just a simple Biblical Truth, one which you do not have to believe, because despite whether you believe it or not, you too will be raptured with the rest of us whether we are alive or dead.

And our home will not be here on earth, but in that abode Christ went to prepare for us.

That's means His WHOLE CHURCH, not just part of it. And the existence of the "camp of the saints" upon the breadth of the earth per Rev.20:9 is further proof of that return to this earth and His reign with His elect upon the earth, as promised per Rev.5:10.

Exactly, lol.

His entire Church, which, if the Rapture occurs at His Return as depicted in Revelation 19...that leaves no physical believers left alive to populate the Millennial Kingdom, which both Old and New Testament Prophecy describes as consisting of living, physical people...not glorified saints.

Those who rebel against God and join forces with Satan when he is loosed for his 75 day campaign are physical descendants of the Sheep, not glorified saints.

This is one issue which Post Tribulation Doctrine cannot reconcile unless they create even more fantastic doctrines such as we see Progressive Dispensationalists create, which I will not present because it does no good to advertise the false doctrinal positions presented by some of them.

Our home when we are Raptured is New Jerusalem, not physical Jerusalem. Those living in the Millennial Kingdom will be physical people, not glorified saints.

When the Rapture of the Church takes place...every believer is resurrected into the habitation we have of God, not of the earth.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You do realize you are agreeing that you Do in fact, IGNORE the verses where the righteous are taken first

Wow.

The teaching is clearly the physical destruction of unbelievers in the Tribulation and when Christ returns. You charge me with ignoring but I have not ignored anything.

Perhaps you can wow yourself into actually addressing that passage itself.


God bless.

 

[pottersclay]

well dp thank you for opening my eyes to my foolishness as a pre trib believer.
I am looking at a mid trib or post trib or maybe even a no trib belief.
I think all I have to do is change some things in the gospels in fact in the new testament to accommodate those beliefs.
So I understand correctly if I did before the tribulation period then all of the new testament is true. But if I enter in to the tribulation period then the promises of God is null and void.
So me as a believing gentiles still has to endure God's judgement and wrath and endure Jacob's trouble.
I am not found righteous, holy, set apart, justified, and God does judge the righteous with the unrightous. I am not spared from the hour of temptation, if fact what Christ did for me on the cross is null and void if I enter into the tribulation period.
Now if I endure God's judgement and wrath and do not take the mark of the beast I have earned God's favor to be saved. Only when this ends do I become a new creature in Christ. So I am appointed wrath and actually not saved untill the second coming.
So all bets are off if all Christians enters the tribulation we are only saved from hell not God's judgement. Do you kinda see how reckless this is?

 

[popeye]

The teaching is clearly the physical destruction of unbelievers in the Tribulation and when Christ returns. You charge me with ignoring but I have not ignored anything.

Perhaps you can wow yourself into actually addressing that passage itself.


God bless.

I see.
So you maintain that lot was left behind,but the wicked were taken.

You maintain that baby Jesus was left behind,but the wicked children were taken

I won't even mention Noah,or the 5wise virgins(both taken into a structure FIRST),due to the ridiculous disguises NEEDED to cancel those no brainers.

I realize you can't biblically reconcile that wicked taken first nonsense,but you need to stop,because YOU UNWITTINGLY STRIKE GODS CHARACTER,AS IF HE WOULD DO SUCH A THING

 

[popeye]

Oh,wait,wait wait ...i get it.

God changed his very nature of saving his elect.

I will write ss many publishers as possible.

Obviously the woman in rev will no longer be taken into the wilderness and protected.

God quit doing that when the amils corrected his error.

 

[popeye]

Lets see,the wicked are taken first,the saints are left to the AC,and are beheaded,Jesus returns to planet W/O a single humanoid,..

Uh,but how does he arrest us,since all the wicked are taken b4 we all die.

Is there some trance?
Benny Hinn takes all our money,and we are too depressed to resist?

Oh ya,the wicked are all taken,and half the population are saved so left behind.

BTW,I LL take that bridge ya'll got 4sale .

 

[popeye]

Oh dear,that other verse has to go also,"few there are that enter heaven"

Obvious God was unaware or forgot,amil "truth",declaring half the earths population as saved and righteous.

 

[popeye]

I love this new doctrine.

Total thread killer.

Wow,we are all off the hook.

The AC,False prophet,beast,and Satan are ALL TAKEN (wicked taken first)

Man,I love it .

We get off,with barely a scratch.!!!! And God gets out of that costly marriage supper!!!;

That is a WIN<>WIN!!!!!

 

[popeye]

Oh ,and everybody has the HS!!!
SAVED,UNSAVED,God truly is no respecter of persons

And heathen have light,righteousness,and unbelievably are waiting for Jesus!!!!

A WHOLE NEW ERA OF " truth" is upon us!!!!

Er,uh deception

 

[popeye]

Wicked taken first.

Beyond ridiculous.

ALL FALSE DOCTRINE CARRIES WITH IT "THE IMPOSSIBLE".

Walk it through and it surpasses the bizarre.