the rapture

[tanakh]

You pull that postrib workbook like a six gun.

You have no case.

Bring the debate into the realm of the bible.

The dead men in your workbook are a fluke.

Try and defend your position W/O them

I wager you can not

How about the two very dead men who first invented the Pre Trib and Dispensational teachings Darby and Schofield.
Prior to them no one had a Pre Trib view. I will throw in another dead man to consider by the name of Samuel Tregelles
who was a contempory of them and happened to be one of the most well known Theologian and Greek Scholar oin the 19th century. He wrote a book refuting the Pre Trib position called The Hope of Christs second coming which can still be purchased through Amazon.

As for keeping the debate within the realm of the Bible, well I quoted three verses from John where Jesus speaks about the redurrection on last day and how he prayed to the father not to take them out of the world but keep them from the evil one. I feel that no matter how many passages I quoted it would not change your view so I will not quote any more.

 

[PlainWord]

How about the two very dead men who first invented the Pre Trib and Dispensational teachings Darby and Schofield.
Prior to them no one had a Pre Trib view. I will throw in another dead man to consider by the name of Samuel Tregelles
who was a contempory of them and happened to be one of the most well known Theologian and Greek Scholar oin the 19th century. He wrote a book refuting the Pre Trib position called The Hope of Christs second coming which can still be purchased through Amazon.

As for keeping the debate within the realm of the Bible, well I quoted three verses from John where Jesus speaks about the redurrection on last day and how he prayed to the father not to take them out of the world but keep them from the evil one. I feel that no matter how many passages I quoted it would not change your view so I will not quote any more.

Popeye is a good friend but he has been so badly brainwashed by the Pre-trib Rapture lie that no verse would satisfy him. He can't point to a single verse that locates any return of Christ before the Tribulation. He can't find a single verse that speaks of the church being pulled off the planet and transported to heaven. He cannot find a single passage which teaches any distinction between a saint and a trib saint.

To fit his view, he along with the rest, invent these ideas and promote the idea that there are multiple resurrections instead of just the two that Paul teaches. But I love Popeye just the same.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Popeye is a good friend but he has been so badly brainwashed by the Pre-trib Rapture lie that no verse would satisfy him. He can't point to a single verse that locates any return of Christ before the Tribulation. He can't find a single verse that speaks of the church being pulled off the planet and transported to heaven. He cannot find a single passage which teaches any distinction between a saint and a trib saint.

To fit his view, he along with the rest, invent these ideas and promote the idea that there are multiple resurrections instead of just the two that Paul teaches. But I love Popeye just the same.

Hello PlainWord,

Both myself and popeye and others have given you plenty of proof for a pre-trib resurrection and catching away, but you guy's don't listen and that because you are the one's who have been brain-washed. So for the record, here are all of the resurrections that are mentioned in scripture which cannot possibly happen at the same time and therefore, they must all fall under the banner of "First Resurrection." Note: The resurrection of the great tribulation saints in Rev.20:4 is only one stage of the first resurrection, Jesus being the One who set it in motion and the church is next!

1.) Jesus Christ the first fruits of the first resurrect (1 Cor.15:22-23)

2.) The resurrection and catching away of the church Prior to God's wrath (1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

3.) The catching up of the Male Child/144,000 in the middle of the seven (Rev.12:5)

4.) The resurrection of the two witnesses (11:11-12)

5.) The resurrection of the great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)

Note: the following resurrection is not apart of the first resurrection

6.) The resurrection of the unrighteous dead at the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15)

There! Now, please stop saying that you have not been provided with a single scripture.

He can't find a single verse that speaks of the church being pulled off the planet and transported to heaven.

"“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." (John 14:1-3)

Now regarding the above, the scripture makes clear that Jesus is going to the Father's house to prepare a place for us. We know that the Father's house can only be referring to this current heaven and that because scripture also states that when Jesus ascended, he sat down at the Father's right hand where he ever makes intercession for all believers, which again would be in heaven. Jesus then said, I am going to come back and take believers to his Father's house, to those places that he has prepared for us, which again is in the Father's house, which can only be referring to heaven. Are you following this?

You say that popeye and others are brain-washed, but it is you and others who are brain-washed by the teachings of men, failing to understand what scripture teaches. In regards to this and what I have also presented over and over again, the order of events is, first the resurrection and catching away of the church, which is then followed by the wrath of God, which believer's in Christ are not appointed to suffer, ergo, believers can't be here during that time of wrath.

"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

What is the coming wrath? The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments combined make up the wrath of God. By the way, you can't use that "brainwashed" stuff on me, because I didn't learn this information from any man or other teachers, but from years of studying end-time events and the book of Revelation. This is just a well known tactic to discredit the other person.

Now please stop saying that we have not provided any scriptural proof for you. The only way that you can claim that is by circumventing and distorting the scriptures. As far as the "church being pulled off the planet," can you read and understand the following?:

"16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Regarding the church being pulled off the planet, please pay attention to the following details of the scripture:

1.) Christ will come down from heaven

2.) The dead in Christ will rise first

3.) After the dead have resurrected, then believers who are still alive will be "caught up" with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Please take notice that, those who are still alive and are changed into their glorified bodies, will be caught up with the resurrected group in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. These two words in the context clouds and air, would demonstrate where the whole group is being caught up to, that is, in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Would you now agree that this would infer being pulled off of the planet? This information is plain and clear and only when distorted or circumvented by false teachings can this be misinterpreted. In John 14:1-3 Jesus gives all believers the promise of his coming to take us back to the Father's house and 1 Thes.4:13-18 is the fulfillment of that event.

Can you now see that the church is in fact going to be pulled off the planet or are you unwilling to be moved from the false teachings?

 

[DP]

Well that is false,but because you don't know that it proves men are guiding you or you would do your own homework.

Also proves you use as a base the beliefs of dead men.

For those interested in when the Pre-trib Rapture theory began to be espoused in some Churches:

https://davemosher.wordpress.com/20...tribulational-rapture-theory-by-ed-f-sanders/

Pretrib_Rapture_Traffickers

 

[DP]

I sometimes shorten passages to save space.

No, you skip over Scripture that doesn't align with the views you have, as I have already shown in my previous posts to you.

Doctrine of man?? I seldom listen to crazy man-made doctrines. As for this passage, I already explained to you that the temple John was to "measure" is in heaven. The word "measure" is the same as "determine" or count. John is to determine or count the saints in heaven and not count those Gentiles who are worshiping in the courtyard on the temple mount. Why? First because they built their temple (Dome of the Rock) in the wrong place. It doesn't stand over the site of the 2nd Jewish temple, rather it stands where the courtyard stood, next to the old temple. Second, because none of those people will enter the Kingdom of God, rather they are condemned already for following Islam (Satan's official religion).

John was given a "reed like unto a rod". Those are two different things. The reed is a type of rod for measuring, so the "like unto a rod" is a different point. What was a simple rod used for in the OT (not a measuring reed, but a rod)?

The temple John is told to measure is definitely NOT... one in Heaven. Gentiles nor anyone else, could ever "tread under" the holy city in Heaven, which is what it would mean per your doctrine.

That's why that event there in Rev.11:1-2 is ON THE EARTH, because... none can separate the outer court and the temple as if one is on earth and the other is in Heaven because they are always together at the same place per God's Word. Can't have an outer court without it involving a standing temple; they are not separate items which your man made doctrines have devised outside that Scripture.

DP buddy!! You are confused. The 42 months in Rev 13 does not refer to the reign of the dragon, it refers to the reign of the Beast of the Sea.

If I were confused, then how is it I well understand the temple and its outer court cannot be separate, and you do not know that simple Biblical fact?

The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast...

There are two entities, the BEAST and the DRAGON.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

The "he" is the Beast. The mouth is its leader. Who or whom is the Mouth of the Beast blaspheming?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

God, God's Name, God's tabernacle or temple in heaven, and those who dwell in heaven. He isn't blaspheming against anything on earth.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Amazing, you quote the Rev.13 Scripture about the "dragon" and the 1st beast, and apply the 42 months of his reign to the 1st beast only? The 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2 is a kingdom. Can a kingdom manifest in power WITHOUT A KING? That "dragon" (Satan) is its king, and that Scripture quoting even showed you how the deceived will worship him!

The one who comes to blaspheme God and Heaven was first written about in the Book of Daniel, and involves a beast king, the "little horn" and "vile person" meaning what? A PERSON

 

[DP]

All Muslims (Those who dwell on earth) will worship the Beast. It is specifically the Muslims whose names are not written in the Book because they have been following Satan since Ishmael and actually all the way back to Nimrod and Babel and even back to Ham and Canaan right after the flood when they took advantage of Noah's wife.

Irrelevant to the Rev.11:1-2 Scripture, because it says "Gentiles" which does not mean only Muslims. You're doctrine of men you follow has you too focused on Islam and the situation in Jerusalem in today, and not how it's going to change when the pseudo-Christ arrives in Jerusalem.

You forget (or maybe you don't know) I am not subject to all the propaganda hype going on today involving radical Islam. I know who is really behind their movement today, i.e, internationalist globalists who work to bring all nations and peoples under their plans for a one world government. Those are the ones who have been supplying and backing radical Islam. Thus what radical Muslims are doing today is going to eventually be pacified by those same globalists that's supported and loosed them. The 18th century high level Mason Albert Pike in his letter to Mazzini said they'd bring 3 world wars in order to destroy atheism and man's religions in order to institute on earth their pure worship of Lucifer. I am not surprised by any of that, but instead I focus on what God's Word declares about the end, and that's the way to know how the end time events will be played out.

Who so readeth let him understand" is the key phrase. When you see that, it means it is not obvious. If it was obvious, everyone would understand. If the A of D was to stand inside a third Jewish temple, why not just say that? Again, there is no teaching of a third, man-made Jewish Temple in any prophesy.

When Jesus spoke that phrase, it means to listen up, He is emphasizing an important point. There was no "abomination of desolation" idol setup at the Jerusalem temple at His 1st coming, nor during the 70 A.D. destruction by the Romans, nor at anytime since 170 B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanes. And the "abomination of desolation" event IS... about the placing of an idol abomination at the temple in Jerusalem per the Book of Daniel. Ezekiel 8 is a specific pattern God gave to show it. Since that event Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel has never happened again since 170 B.C., it means that event has to still be future, because the 2nd temple and its modifications by Herod was destroyed in 70 A.D., except the stones of the Wailing Wall.

So it doesn't take a lot of common sense to understand another Jewish temple in Jerusalem is REQUIRED for that "abomination of desolation" to be placed there, according to both the Daniel Scripture and our Lord Jesus' Own Words in Matt.24 and Mark 13 about it standing in the "holy place".

Notice it isn't "those in Jerusalem" are to flee? It is "all those in Judea are to flee" which is most of the country of Israel. The 10 northern tribes are already gone. Where are they to flee to? The "mountains" meaning the nations. Trust me, they are not fleeing to the mountains in and around Jerusalem or Judea. They would be easily found there. The whole country is the size of New Jersey. Not a lot of places for 8 million people to hide.

Irrelevant. Jesus was speaking about His servants in Judea in that future time, not to everyone there. In the Luke 21 version He also told His servants in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem at that time either. The reason? Because of the pseudo-Christ that will set himself up as God there, and place the idol abomination there in Jerusalem. How can you claim to be a Christian and NOT know these things? You're not heeding the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are you?

Thus we see in Rev 12 that after War broke out in heaven, then Satan was no longer allowed there which implies he was allowed to go back and forth prior to this.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

Please pay close attention to the following because there is going to be a quiz after.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

When did Salvation come, before or after Christ and the cross?
Do you see in the above that "the Power of Christ" had come?
Do you see that Satan had been accusing the Brethren day and night in heaven?

Based on the above, did the above happen at Eden or at some point after the cross?

Again, you leave out the rest of those Rev.12 verses after verse 10, because it would show more of how that Rev.12:7-17 casting out is for the END OF DAYS.


Dan.12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

That is about the war in Heaven of Rev.12:7 forward when the Archangel Michael makes a stand ("stand up"). That event is what causes the start of the great tribulation time for the very end of this world when Satan and his angels are cast out of Heaven down to this earth.

In the Book of Job, Satan was still allowed to approach God's Throne in the Heavenly. You show you don't understand the difference between the two dimensions of existence in God's Word, this earthly one and the Heavenly one. Even in Job, Satan was still in the Heavenly dimension, as he still is today. After Rev.12:7 that is going to change. His being cast to the earth in that latter Rev.12:7-9 example is about his being cast OUT of the Heavenly dimension and into our earthly dimension, appearing right here on earth, along with his angels!

 

[DP]

I don't recall saying, "In place of Christ." I implied that Satan comes in the form of a man claiming to be above everything that is in heaven which includes, Christ and God our Father and all the angels. Satan exalts himself above everything including Muhammad and Allah. Satan doesn't come impersonating Christ as many think. He disregards Christ, God and everyone else and basically claims to be EVERYTHING. He advances himself as ABOVE THEM ALL, a foreign god that his fathers did not know, not Jewish fathers, rather Muslim fathers.

Per Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22, the Greek word pseudochristos is used about that coming false one, and that Greek word is made up of 2 other Greek word, pseudo which means false or fake, and Christos which means Christ singular. As I've referred to before, that's why Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance has that definition as "a spurious Messiah" (no. 5580) Jesus showed that one will work the great signs and miracles in Jerusalem that Paul also showed in 2 Thess.2:4, and John showed in Rev.13:11 forward. It is also about the Daniel prophecy of the "vile person" of Dan.11, and the "little horn" of Dan.8, and the one of Dan.9:27.

All those Scriptures references to that coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem playing God ought to have made it plain that one is also coming to play Jesus Christ, otherwise that word pseudo-Christos would NEVER have been used as an identifier. Apostle Paul also revealed the existence of the "another Jesus" in 2 Corinthians 11 to help make this more plain, but the eyes of many have been blinded to that revealing also.

Thus God's Word is... specifically showing us that false one coming in the role as The Christ also. That specifically is what that word Christos means in Greek pseudochristos.

The rest of your post is just more falseness designed to lead believers on Christ Jesus astray from the events to come in Jerusalem about a false Christ.

I have decided that you have no intention of actually heeding these things written in God's Word, but instead are here to represent the orthodox Jews with their political propaganda to help support their cause, which explains why you hate the sons and daughters of Ishmael so much, because they work against your orthodox Jewish brethren in Jerusalem.

 

[tanakh]

Popeye is a good friend but he has been so badly brainwashed by the Pre-trib Rapture lie that no verse would satisfy him. He can't point to a single verse that locates any return of Christ before the Tribulation. He can't find a single verse that speaks of the church being pulled off the planet and transported to heaven. He cannot find a single passage which teaches any distinction between a saint and a trib saint.

To fit his view, he along with the rest, invent these ideas and promote the idea that there are multiple resurrections instead of just the two that Paul teaches. But I love Popeye just the same.

I have no aminosity towards anyone on this site as far as their beliefs are concerned. The only things I object to strongly are unfounded doubts on my salvation and unfounded attacks on my political or Social standing. I hasten to add that neither is the case on this occasion, although It has been in the past.

 

[PlainWord]

I have no aminosity towards anyone on this site as far as their beliefs are concerned. The only things I object to strongly are unfounded doubts on my salvation and unfounded attacks on my political or Social standing. I hasten to add that neither is the case on this occasion, although It has been in the past.

Wasn't meaning to imply that you had any animosity. Sorry you took it that way. I was really teasing Popeye by replying to you. Happy New Year.

 

[tanakh]

Wasn't meaning to imply that you had any animosity. Sorry you took it that way. I was really teasing Popeye by replying to you. Happy New Year.

No problem Bruv Happy New Year to You too.

 

[bikerchaz]

So I want to learn a little bit more about the Rapture from what I read I'm starting to see a lot of signs in the world I like what I message was church the other day it was are you living a Christian life outside of church are you going with the Rapture are you staying even though you go to church doesn't mean you're always living the word.plese help by answering whats the mark of the beast really mean.and our we not gonna be able to eat and stuff

Sorry fella, I am not sure what you are asking here, I am not trying to pull your grammar but it is a bit confusing. Even so I will try and answer what I think you have asked.
The rapture is what happens when Jesus returns. It is how we will be effected at His return. It will only effect those who are alive at that precise moment, there is no president for it except what we are told by our Lord and the apostles about the second coming. There are lots and lots of different scenarios and it can become quite confusing. There is also the wedding feast to contend with and Jesus himself talks about that quite a bit.
I will give you a run down as I perceive it, by the way the Holy Spirit has led me ( I just know there will be a lot of comment disagreeing with me but here goes).
This world we live in is in crisis, and that is now. It will get worse the Spirit of God confirms that within me. I perceive there will be a time when "religion" will not be tolerated within the world because of the hypocrisy that is seen within its bounds, whether Christian, Hebrew, Islam, Hindi etc etc. In the end it will come down to what is described in Revelation as the two witnesses lying dead in the streets, one Christianity and one Judaism, The earth will rejoice at their demise because no one will feel condemned any more. This exact moment is the point of the Rapture. These two witnesses will be lifted up to be with God and the whole world will see it, there will be no doubt.
The scripture says that 'one will be taken and the other left', Also, 'as the lightening shines from east to the west' etc there are so many references it would take hours to go through them, and in a way (I do not want to offend) but I feel like as one of the virgins awaiting the arrival of the groom I am being asked for some of my oil and if I give it I will not have enough left for myself. You must read, and read prayerfully with a hunger for what is contained so It will grab your heart and shake you up until there is nothing left but Jesus.
You, if you are alive at His coming, will know when It happens, you will know if you are left behind, there will be no doubt but then it will be to late. The scripture says "Seek the Lord while it is today" and in this, it is self evident that your efforts must go into finding Jesus and making His life in you a top priority. Nothing else matters, you must accept Him as your saviour and accept His sacrifice on the cross as payment for your sins, believe in Him, be baptised by water and pray to receive the Holy Spirit who will then make all things known to you as you need to know them, this was Jesus own promise to His followers that the Holy Spirit would take from Him and make it known to us, He does and will.
But read you must, to have His purpose in you, If you do not have a daily reading plan set up try this, three chapters a day, start at Genesis 1, and then Psalm 1 then Matthew 1. I try and get an hour a day in first thing, I don't always but I do mostly, it depends on circumstances, but do it prayerfully ,open your soul to His Holy Spirit, claim the protection of the blood of Jesus on your endeavour (each time) in prayer and you will feel the wisdom of God in your heart. doing it this way you would read the old testament once and the new testament twice a year.
This will also answer your question about the mark of the beast, God wrote it and He will expound it to you as you need to know. God bless.

 

[PlainWord]

DP,

Per Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22, the Greek word pseudochristos is used about that coming false one, and that Greek word is made up of 2 other Greek word, pseudo which means false or fake, and Christos which means Christ singular.

You have to re-read it. I agree the Greek word is pseudochristos. Do you notice the "s" at the end? This means multiple Christs. How many Christs do you think will come? The truth is Jesus is speaking of many Christs over the course of time who attempt to deceive.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The words "Christs" and "prophets" are used here. The word "prophet" can also mean "teacher." Thus many false teachers will also arise. However, neither will deceive the ELECT.

Many believe that the "Great Tribulation" began in 70 AD and applied to the scattering of the Jewish people. Others believe that the "Great Tribulation" began around 688 with the setting up of the Dome of the Rock (AKA the Abomination of Desolation) for it was then that Muslims solidified their control over Jerusalem. Most, however, think the GT is a future 7 year event which begins with the appearance of a singular AntiChrist. I assume you are in the latter camp? However, Jesus does not discuss a singular A/C in the Olivet. Paul, however, discusses a Man of Sin in 2 Thes 2. You equate the passages, yet are they to be equated?

Thus God's Word is... specifically showing us that false one coming in the role as The Christ also. That specifically is what that word Christos means in Greek pseudochristos.

False One as in singular? You quote the correct word used which is plural yet you then apply pseudochristos into one false Christ. How are you able to take a plural word for "Christ" and turn it into a singular "Christ?"

The rest of your post is just more falseness designed to lead believers on Christ Jesus astray from the events to come in Jerusalem about a false Christ.

You think I am trying to lead Christians astray? Shame on you. Show me a passage that specifically states that a singular False Christ will come to Jerusalem and stand in a third man-made Jewish temple claiming to be Christ. Such a passage cannot be found and is not found. In fact the texts that you rely upon make it clear that this figure claims to be above all considered god and that he shows himself as God, not Christ.

You (and many others) imply this from taking multiple passage from both OT and NT, linking them together, then inventing an AntiChrist who stands in a third Jewish temple who forces everyone to accept a micro chip or other mark or be killed. This teaching is not found. There is no prophesy of a third, man-made Jewish temple, to be built some 2,000 years after the destruction of the 2nd temple in AD 70. I'm not saying it couldn't happen. I'm saying it isn't taught.

I have decided that you have no intention of actually heeding these things written in God's Word, but instead are here to represent the orthodox Jews with their political propaganda to help support their cause, which explains why you hate the sons and daughters of Ishmael so much, because they work against your orthodox Jewish brethren in Jerusalem.

What are you talking about? I don't represent orthodox Jews. I'm not even Jewish. What political propaganda? You seem to be the one who supports them building a third temple where I do not. You are calling for them to re-institute animal sacrifices where I do not.

I do not hate the sons and daughters of Ishmael. I know many of them and love many of them. I do not like the radical killing types such as ISIS or other terror groups. I do not like murderers. Who does? Do you?

 

[PlainWord]

The temple John is told to measure is definitely NOT... one in Heaven. Gentiles nor anyone else, could ever "tread under" the holy city in Heaven, which is what it would mean per your doctrine.

Again, you miss the analogy. There are the saved, destined for heaven and the unsaved, left out figuratively in the "courtyard," they never make it to heaven. Thus, they are stuck on earth to tread the Holy City.

Compare:

Rev 11: Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

To:

Rev 6: When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

And:

Rev 7: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

All 3 passages are related. They are talking about the same people and the same things; 1) Temple of God, 2) Altar, 3) Those who are worshiping there.

John was given a "reed like unto a rod". Those are two different things. The reed is a type of rod for measuring, so the "like unto a rod" is a different point. What was a simple rod used for in the OT (not a measuring reed, but a rod)?

Like you said, John was told to measure two things, right? You can measure a building with a reed or rod but how do you measure people with a reed or rod????? Care to explain?

Look, every instance of the temple (13 times) in Revelation is either spiritual or it is in heaven. This is totally clear in 11 of the 13 instances. The other two instances are in Rev 11:1-2 and suddenly you want to make these two cases to be on earth.

Revelation 3:12

He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God

Revelation 7:15
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.

Revelation 11:19
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven

Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud

Revelation 15:5
After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened

Revelation 15:6
And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues,

Revelation 15:8
The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power

Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Revelation 16:17
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

Revelation 21:22
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Again, the above examples are clearly either spiritual or the temple is in heaven. Therefore, the below two uses of Temple are also spiritual or in heaven:

Revelation 11:1

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.


Revelation 11:2
But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

You don't think it is possible to discuss the saved in heaven and then contrast them with the unsaved who never make it to heaven and instead are on earth trying to get to heaven by following their false faith? Another way John could have said it could be, "Count all those saved in heaven but don't count the unsaved on earth trying to earn their way to heaven by 'treading' on the truth."

If I were confused, then how is it I well understand the temple and its outer court cannot be separate, and you do not know that simple Biblical fact?

You don't.

Amazing, you quote the Rev.13 Scripture about the "dragon" and the 1st beast, and apply the 42 months of his reign to the 1st beast only? The 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2 is a kingdom. Can a kingdom manifest in power WITHOUT A KING? That "dragon" (Satan) is its king, and that Scripture quoting even showed you how the deceived will worship him!

The one who comes to blaspheme God and Heaven was first written about in the Book of Daniel, and involves a beast king, the "little horn" and "vile person" meaning what? A PERSON

Please try to pay close attention. I'm going to attempt again to explain it to you.

And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

Yes, the above is a Kingdom (a north of Israel Islamic Kingdom to be exact)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[SUP][/SUP] for forty-two months. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

The "Mouth" is the leader of the Kingdom called Beast of the Sea and he continues for 42 months.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

This is the False Prophet. What is he doing? He's directing (deceiving) people (Muslims) to worship (serve) the Northern Kingdom (Beast of the Sea). His identity is confirmed in Rev 19:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

I believe the False Prophet will be the Mahdi.

 

[popeye]

For those interested in when the Pre-trib Rapture theory began to be espoused in some Churches:

https://davemosher.wordpress.com/20...tribulational-rapture-theory-by-ed-f-sanders/

Pretrib_Rapture_Traffickers

Do you ever promote your doctrine by addressing our verses?

Even when called on it,you go to man to accuse us of being taught error by men.

Give that concept a break.

Debate scripture

 

[popeye]

How about the two very dead men who first invented the Pre Trib and Dispensational teachings Darby and Schofield.
Prior to them no one had a Pre Trib view. I will throw in another dead man to consider by the name of Samuel Tregelles
who was a contempory of them and happened to be one of the most well known Theologian and Greek Scholar oin the 19th century. He wrote a book refuting the Pre Trib position called The Hope of Christs second coming which can still be purchased through Amazon.

As for keeping the debate within the realm of the Bible, well I quoted three verses from John where Jesus speaks about the redurrection on last day and how he prayed to the father not to take them out of the world but keep them from the evil one. I feel that no matter how many passages I quoted it would not change your view so I will not quote any more.

Another post using men to make your case.

I use a bible.

I obtained a position from doing what you refuse to do.

Openly challenging my own position by placing my views in the opposing camp.

Once I see the first impossibility,I move on.

That is the difference. I can not only show harmony of God's word,I can bring verses to the table you know not of,and demonstrate along side those two dynamics the IMPOSSIBILITY of your position.

IOW,YOU CAN NOT DEBATE ME AND MAKE YOUR CASE.

Not being ugly about it.
But I have examined postrib,and placed myself in that position.
YOU GUYS CAN NOT DO THAT WITH PRETRIB.

Your starting point is WHY.
Your starting point is AntiPretrib.

You START in a "known".
You disenfranchie yourself,and attempt to do us that way.

Your first red flag is that mechanic.
Your second is the ignoring of God's purpose
Your third is that you are trib centered
Your fourth is that we are busy bringing verses/concepts to the table. Your camp invokes a "swatter" to make verses disappear.

The red flags are numerous.That is just four off the top of my head

 

[popeye]

What are you whining about now? In all cases where you've tried to supply Scripture support for the Pre-trib Rapture you have failed, so now you make direct attacks upon my credibility, because that's all you have left, showing how deceived you are by those you listen to.

If you found just one Scripture that goes against the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men, then that should... have made you stop and wonder, and go deeper into Bible study for yourself. But instead, you mock others that have... done their homework in God's Word to know the Pre-trib Rapture theory is a doctrine of men, and not of God.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those daysshall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV



Those two Scriptures proofs ought... to be enough for you to question the theory of man you are on, and to start looking deeper in God's Word.

But no, you would rather mock instead while denying... that Scripture evidence my Lord Jesus left His faithful who heed His Word. Thus you place yourself among the charlatans you instead have believed on. Let them save you if they can, since your faith is misplaced in them, and not in God's Word as written.

You go personal.
I call you on it
You accuse me of going personal.

Bible???
Hello???
Postrib verses???

None

 

[popeye]

Hello Tanakh,

I see this claim regarding Darby and Schofield a lot regarding the Pre-Trib belief. So my question is, how did I and, I'm sure millions of others, come to the conclusion of the Lord's Pre-Trib/pre-wrath gathering of the church, who have never read Darby or Schofield? People always assume that our understanding of the timing of the Lord's gathering of the church has been adopted by some other teacher or group. However, it has been through my own personal studies of over 40 years, that I arrived at this conclusion and not by any teacher.

Referring to the dead and living being gathered by the Lord as being a "secret rapture" this is also a popular tactic used to discredit those who hold to this interpretation. However, it is never referred to in Scripture as being secret, but is a scriptural promise from the Lord for all to see. One of the major problems for this controversy of timing, is the error of not recognizing that the resurrection and catching away (RCA) is a completely different event from the event of Christ's return to the earth to end the age. Another common error is that, people don't understand that the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4 is in reference to the great tribulation saints, only! For there is no mention of the living being transformed and caught up at this resurrection. We know that they are the great tribulation saints being resurrected, because they are identified as being killed for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and also because they will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor have received his mark. This would put this group who are resurrected as coming out of that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

In relation to this, another error that people make is not understanding that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection.

The First resurrection is comprised of the following:

* Jesus the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Cor.15:23)

* The resurrection and catching away of the church (1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

* The Male Child/144,000 who are caught up in the middle of the seven years (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints who will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth (Rev.20:4)

Therefore, the belief in the RCA of the church is based on the fact that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and that because Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins and therefore God's wrath has been satisfied through Christ on our behalf.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes.1:10)

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes.5:9)

At the end of Paul's outline of the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:13-18, which event is also called "the blessed hope" Paul said "Therefore comfort each other with these words." He said the same thing in 1 Thes.1:11 after stating that Christ rescues us from the coming wrath. Consequently, if the church were to go through that seven year period or even part of it, there would be no comfort for the faithful. For according to scripture, just with the 4th seal and 6th trumpet, there will be approximately 4.4 billion fatalities and that is not including the first three trumpets or the bowl judgments. Regarding this decimation of the inhabitants of the earth, Jesus also said that, "if those days of wrath had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth." Therefore, since the wrath of God is comprised of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, and that antichrist is the first seal rider on the white horse, then the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened.

Blessings![/QUOTE

]Every person I have met who believes in the Pre Trib Rapture teaching has either believed in it by reading a book about it or heard about it from their Minister or through some other means. Up until now I have never heard of anyone actually coming to the position by studying the Bible alone without anything else influencing them. This doesn't surprise me, seeing that I do not now believe it . Although there was a time that I did. One main reason I believed then was that I had never
heard of any alternative view and I attended a church where most not all members believed it. In my experience people who do believe seem to be driven by emotion rather than sound teaching. Who wants to experience the tribulation? So
anyone who appears to offer an alternative are eagerly listened to.

One major Pre Trib argument rests on the idea that we are not appointed to wrath so we all escape before the tribulation
takes place. According to revelation God sets a seal on believers so we are not subjected to the wrath of God by being here. When God sent the plagues on Egypt he didn't take the Israelites out of the Country first but protected them.
When the firstborn were killed he told them to protect themselves by putting blood on the Door Posts. This is interesting because In Revelation some of the Plagues God sends are similar to the Plagues of Egypt. So it is not difficult to believe that believers would still be here in the tribulation. This is a long and complex subject but I will sign off with another couple of quotations from Jesus in John.

I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world but that thou keepest them from the evil one.

John 17 16

I do not pray for these only but also for those who believe in me through their word.

JOhn 17 20

Tanakh (not awatukee)

Sorry,but I got saved in a preterist church.
I met the pastor several times in his office and,as a newborn babe,challenged him. I didn't know the word so he "won" every time.

I decided I was going to study.

But I studied different than you guys.

I STUDIED ALL POSITIONS.

I wanted truth.

The game changer is the bride/ groom dimension.
We own this.

We own "God's purposes"

We can go there and park there. You guys can only hide and watch.

Not being ugly,but that is the truth.

Now,where are your verses?

 

[DP]

DP,

You have to re-read it. I agree the Greek word is pseudochristos. Do you notice the "s" at the end? This means multiple Christs. How many Christs do you think will come? The truth is Jesus is speaking of many Christs over the course of time who attempt to deceive.

The word Christos (no. 5548) in Greek is SINGULAR. An "s" on the end of Greek words does not necessarily make it plural.

You can discover this easily by looking at what all other cases of Greek Christos are translated to in the KJV. Anywhere it is Christ in the KJV, it is Christos in the Greek, or another Greek word showing how they sometimes took license with adding it into English, like in 2 Thess.2:2, where the word for Christ in the Greek is not Christos, but actually kurios which means lord.

Too late to change your tune now, you have already denied that the coming false one has anything to do with being a singular false Christ (i.e., pseudo-Christ per Greek pseudochristos of Matt.24:24).

The Matt.24:23-26 verse context is singular, not plural even though the KJV translators made it plural in English.

The Matt.24:5 context is plural.

Like Apostle John said in 1 John 2:18, they had heard that antichrist (singular) shall come, but already there were many antichrists (plural) at work. He was speaking of BOTH a specific singular antichrist to come, and also his workers already here at work as the many antichrists. Jesus gave the same account of the many who come in His Name saying they are Christ, and then a singular false one coming as Christ, both are in Matt.24 and Mark 13. This is why Strong's has pseudochristos in Matt.24:24 as singular "a spurious Messiah" (no. 5580).

As I said about you, you are working for the deceived Jews, because that's the origin of the doctrine you are on.

The doctrine of many antichrists only, and no singular antichrist coming to Jerusalem, is a doctrine of Jewish origin. It denies the Scripture evidence Jesus gave, and that Paul gave, and what was given to John in Revelation about the coming of a singular false one to Jerusalem in the last days.

The reason that denial is a doctrine originating from orthodox Jews, is because the coming of a singular antichrist to Jerusalem is exactly... what Scripture is declaring, while the Jews in Jerusalem only want people to think that their Messiah is who is coming to Jerusalem, and not as a false one. The idea of only many antichrists and not a singular one also serves that purpose in order that no one would be able to point to the singular pseudo-Christ that is... going to come there.

 

[DP]

You go personal.
I call you on it
You accuse me of going personal.

Bible???
Hello???
Postrib verses???

None

I accuse you of NOT following Scripture as written and have proven it, as I also accuse plainword of doing the same thing and have proven it, even though both of you are on separate doctrines of men.

 

[DP]

Tanakh (not awatukee)

Sorry,but I got saved in a preterist church.
I met the pastor several times in his office and,as a newborn babe,challenged him. I didn't know the word so he "won" every time.

I decided I was going to study.

But I studied different than you guys.

I STUDIED ALL POSITIONS.

I wanted truth.

The game changer is the bride/ groom dimension.
We own this.

We own "God's purposes"

We can go there and park there. You guys can only hide and watch.

Not being ugly,but that is the truth.

Now,where are your verses?

But the way those you heed have deceived you with that "bride/ groom dimension" is that in Jesus' parable of Matt.25, the ten virgins do NOT represent His Bride. They represent the "children of the bridechamber" of Matt.9:15.

Jesus speaking to the disciples of John the Baptist:

Matt 9:15
15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
KJV