the rapture

[Ahwatukee]

No, those Rev.6 verses about the 6th SEAL are not at the beginning... of the great tribulation. They are events to occur at the END of the tribulation with Jesus' 2nd coming!

Hi DP,

You can't have Jesus returning at the sixth seal and that because you have the seventh seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments to follow and Jesus doesn't return to the earth until all of those judgments have been fulfilled. The Lord makes it clear that he doesn't return until after the seventh bowl has been poured out, when at the pouring out of the sixth bowl makes the following interjection:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place in the exact chronological order that they appear in Revelation, which is why each set is numbered 1 through 7, with the bowl judgments being last, last because with them God's wrath is completed (Rev.15:1).

 

[Mantvydas]

Rapture before tribulation it wery popular in America one guy called Scofield about 1830 print his bible with his on commentaries .Bible colegies was using his bible and spread doctrine about rapture around.The thing is you will not find any scripture which teach about rapture before tribulation in same single verse then tribulation and persecution (think it almost same) mencion in new testament more than 20 times.Sorry for any mistakes

 

[Mantvydas]

please guys be careful with book of revelation then you interpret that .

 

[thebesttrees]

He will fulfill the prophecies in His own way. I do not have any doubt about tit as this has been His way always. The Bible is there for all to study and see for themselves how God has fulfilled prophecies in the past. There is no reason for Him to teach as one way and tell us to expect any different manner of fulfillment in the future. He has the final say in interpreting the Word of God. We can research and argue all we want but let us be careful that our guesswork does not become a cloud.

 

[popeye]

An interesting aspect in the Noah story is that it was the wicked that were taken in the flood. Noah and his family were left behind in the Ark.

Jesus told the Disciples that those taken would be with Vultures, ' Where the corpse is the Vultures will gather together'

If you are postrib,and need the Noah example to fit,then you need Noah delivered after the flood.

Besides that,Noah enters the ark PREFLOOD/PREJUDGMENT.
AS DOES THE BRIDE IN THE RAPTURE.

Either way you have Jesus being confused by your assertion that lot was removed prejudgment and Noah rescued After the flood?

Pretrib position doesn't need any such disguises.

You guys vulture theory doesn't fly (pun time) either.
Jesus did not answer the question. Simple as that.
In effect he was saying "where there's smoke there's fire"

So,you got them all wrong,but now you're out of that trap.

 

[popeye]

oops double post

 

[popeye]

Correction, they are Jews waiting for the Messiah that to date they reject as having already come.

The parable is premillennial in nature and the Rapture is yet a mystery.



Just not possible...the Lord states He does not know them.





What is out of whack is your loss of salvation doctrine which is clearly works-based.




If they were born again believers they would need known of the Lord.

These are not.

We cannot make the salvation we did not effect vood through neglect...


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)



3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.





Oil can be seen to be figurative. Unbelievers can partake of the Holy Spirit.

Every person will partake of the Holy Spirit through the ministry of the Comforter.

But not every person will yield to Him, and Scripture indicates most...will resist Him.






They had no relationship. They were not known of the Lord.


Matthew 7:22-24

King James Version (KJV)



22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:




Salvation can be said to have a connotation of ownership, but it is not we who are the Master.

The five foolish Virgins are unbelievers refused entrance to the Kingdom of God, not believers left behind in the Rapture. Paul's teaching makes it clear that the Lord personally collects both living and dead believers in the Rapture.

God bless.

Wow,where do we start.

This simple parable is a game changer.

Why would you do this to it?

Heathen are pure and undefiled?

The difference between a heathen and undefiled is oil?

Heathen are pure,undefiled,righteous?

You hang all these inconsistencies on the word "know"

BTW,concerning the word "know" it is used to denote that a woman has not had relations with a man.

All non virgins have "known" men,DOES NOT MEAN "VIRGINS NEVER MET A MAN" ,when saying they "have not known man"

See that? see how deviating off the bride /groom dimension has led to to all those verse disguises?


man is it humorous watching these wild creative disguises.
You actually think heathen have the HS?

 

[popeye]

"wicked taken first" is made up by man. There is no such thing.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.





17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.


According to the wicked taken first mess,1/2 of earth's population is righteous,1/2 wicked. (one taken,one left)

In the noah story "took them away" could just as easily be applied to noah as to the worlds population.

"and bare up the ark,"
".......and it was lift up above the earth....."
".........and the ark went upon the face of the waters...."
".........the flood came, and took them all away......"
Once the "wicked taken first" is given the slightest scrutiny,it falls apart big time.

 

[popeye]

If you are on the way up you wont need an explanation. On the other hand if you find yourself in the tribulation, having checked all the right boxes I reckon you and many pre trib advocates will be desperate for one.

Where are the righteous "taken first" verses?

Oh,that's right,we ignore those.

 

[DP]

This is a typical argument. It is weak and in error though.

Let's see your proof then. I don't see it here...

Do we see the Apostles teaching a direct Trinitarian doctrine? Are you willing to say that the Trinity is a theory?

That statement is irrelevant to the pre-trib rapture topic. It's like when speaking of planting corn you change to planting trees.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is simply the only reasonable view to take. It is the only position that does not have to reconcile problems all other positions create.

I showed what our Lord Jesus said the timeframe of His return is per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, but your only evidence is that the pre-trib theory is the only reasonable view? Maybe you don't realize you just convicted yourself by saying that, showing that you are spiritually 'drunken' with that rapture idea, instead of listening to our Lord in His Word.

My doctrine has never relied on Darby, but Scripture only, and that the premillennial view was the position of the Apostles is taken directly from their First Century teachings recorded in Scripture itself, which the historical views of both Protestant and Catholic alike come into serious conflict with.

Nah, we're not talking about seminary premillennialism here. We're talking about what Jesus showed the timing of events for His second coming are per Scripture. The Pre-trib Rapture theory was NOT held by any Christian Church prior to the 1800's, so why try to lie to me about that?

You can slander post Inspiration sources and teachings, but you will never deny the Pre-Tribulation Rapture if you keep the discussion Scriptural.


God bless.

Because I tell you the truth per God's Word, you call that slander? Don't you see that I care enough about those trapped in men's doctrine of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory that I will take the time in trying to get them to reconsider what Scripture is actually teaching?

Here is a DIRECT Scripture, again, given by our Lord Jesus:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV



Our Lord Jesus made that event flow very easy to understand. The only way the Pre-trib rapture doctrinists have tried to counter that direct Scripture from our Lord Jesus is to totally and completely deny that it is for His Church. Their doing that should... sound a huge alarm in one's mind and heart if they truly love our Lord Jesus.

Those signs our Lord Jesus gave us there are the Seals of Revelation 6. And who did Jesus give His Revelation through John to? To the seven CHURCHES in Asia (Asia Minor). So those things definitely... are for Christ's Church today. Those two Matthew and Mark examples of the events of His coming and gathering of His saints parallels the two groups Apostle Paul covered in the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter.

 

[DP]

The premillennial view was the view of the early Church, and taught by Paul. And just like Trinitarian understanding is something that was more clearly taught at a later date by the Church, even so understanding of the timeline of events is more a focused point of doctrine recognized by later Theologians.

What is dishonest is to deny that we can establish Pre-Tribulation understanding directly from the First Century teachings of the Apostles. So if you want to debate about Scofield and Darby, you'll have to find someone interested in the teachings of men. But if you want to debate Scripture, then be glad to discuss it with you.

And sorry for the bold, on a tablet and it picked up the code of your own emphasis and its just easier to leave it in place.




It's just a fact that a premillennial view can be seen in Scripture as well as in early teachings of the Church.

The Pre-Trib view may have been more pronounced in that timeframe but there is nothing unusual in that. Your argument could be also used in regards to the teachings that have arisen out of the Reformation, where the A-millenniel view became popular. This error actually predates the Reformation bit that is when it gained a major foothold.



Not at all. When we properly place the teachings in their proper context we find no conflict between Christ's teachings, which are primarily in reference to the Second Coming, and the teachings of Paul who is the one who the Spirit revealed the Mystery of the Rapture.

That is where most go awry in regards to the Rapture, tey do not taker into consideration that Christ taught concerning the Kingdom Israel awaited, not the Rapture. There are some of His teachings which apply to the Rapture, but these are veiled references not meant to declare the Mystery Paul would teach about.


God bless.

Obviously, you are confused...

The Pre-tribulational Rapture theory that began with the British Irvingite Church and John Darby in the 1830's is not privy to the idea of the pre-millennialist term the seminaries coined.

Pre-mill is only about the belief that our Lord Jesus returns PRIOR to the Millennium ("thousand years") taught in Revelation 20.

Both post-tribulationalists and pre-tribulationalists are pre-mill. Their difference is that one believes Jesus' coming is AFTER the tribulation He warned, and the other is about those who believe His coming is PRIOR to that tribulation.

The early 1st/2nd century Church fathers were post-tribulational pre-millennialists (as I am).

 

[DP]

Groom,Jesus,bride ,Marriage,waitlmg on groom to fetch bride,groom taking bride to heaven,

Uh,who would have thought that had anything to do with 1thes4 where the
BRIDE IS CAUGHT UP TO HEAVEN VIA THE GROOM.

Mat 25,and the bride/groom dimension is a game changer

I chuckle every time you guys weigh in with such creative verse disguises.

The Jewish wedding feast order does not fit the event of Jesus' coming to gather His Church. The ten virgins of Matt.25 do not fit the Bride role per the Jewish wedding feast. And remember, Jesus represented those of His Church as those ten virgins.

Who then is the Bride per Scripture?

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

 

[DP]

Hi DP,

You can't have Jesus returning at the sixth seal and that because you have the seventh seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments to follow and Jesus doesn't return to the earth until all of those judgments have been fulfilled. The Lord makes it clear that he doesn't return until after the seventh bowl has been poured out, when at the pouring out of the sixth bowl makes the following interjection:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place in the exact chronological order that they appear in Revelation, which is why each set is numbered 1 through 7, with the bowl judgments being last, last because with them God's wrath is completed (Rev.15:1).

Don't get confused over the numbering of those seals, because one should clearly know the rider on the white horse given at the first is not an event of the 1st seal either, regardless if one thinks that's Jesus or the Antichrist. It's recognizing the events that is most important in order to understand the order of events. Then study in the OT prophets goes with it, since those events were first mentioned there, and then marking the definite order in the last 3 trumpets which our Lord gave 3 woe periods with, that's a definite chronological order.

Our Lord Jesus' warning on the 6th Vial at Rev.16:15 to His Church is also a time marker, showing His coming is not until the 7th Vial. The events leading up to the 7th trumpet of Rev.11 and all the kingdoms becoming those of The Father and His Son is also a definite time marker that goes with these events of the 6th seal.

When these verses occur, it signals the heavens being opened and their seeing Jesus coming in the clouds, which is why they then seek to hide...

Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

In Revelation 7, we are given events of God sealing His servants of both Israel and His Church in prep for the tribulation, so that's actually a move back from the 6th seal events.

Then in Revelation 8 we are told the 7th seal is opened and there is silence for half an hour, and then the trumpets are given. Thing is, the events to occur on the last 3 trumpets are also the events in the seals, the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe showing the great earthquake in Jerusalem that's to occur on the day of Christ's return.

So by trying to apply all of it to a strict flow of sequential numbers, the proper order of the events will not be revealed to you. The last 3 trumpet - 3 woes is the actual chronological order that shows a definite order. The Rev.6 flow of the seals is following the order Jesus gave the seven signs in His Olivet Discourse, the final sign being His coming.

 

[DP]

"wicked taken first" is made up by man. There is no such thing.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

According to the wicked taken first mess,1/2 of earth's population is righteous,1/2 wicked. (one taken,one left)

In the noah story "took them away" could just as easily be applied to noah as to the worlds population.

"and bare up the ark,"
".......and it was lift up above the earth....."
".........and the ark went upon the face of the waters...."
".........the flood came, and took them all away......"
Once the "wicked taken first" is given the slightest scrutiny,it falls apart big time.

If you had been more thorough in study, instead of listening to men, then you would not have missed this answer by our Lord Jesus to His disciples...

Luke 17:35-3735 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV


Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV


Other Bible versions of that verse:



Matt 24:27-28 28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
NAS

Matt 24:28
28 And wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather.
TLB

Matt 24:28
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
NIV

Matt 24:28
28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
NASU

 

[mar09]

I just saw this thread started and already its in p.5 now... i happen to pass by some threads on this recently, one last posted on 2 wks ago, although quite long.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/58527-when-does-rapture-occur.html

And there's another by josefnospam wc i also bookmarked i think, but got to check. Some of the responses of the same persons in the forum seem to be the same... but oh there's so much discusiion already i cannot really pinpoint.

 

[mar09]

He (f 143),has indeed consistently started threads with the subject matter of himself,then has never replied to anyone,ever.

But he hs only 4 posts altogethr. I cn somtyms read a day or more unable to reply or post however.

 

[mar09]

He (f 143),has indeed consistently started threads with the subject matter of himself,then has never replied to anyone,ever.

But he hs only 4 posts altogethr. I cn somtyms read a day or more, unable to reply or post however.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Groom,Jesus,bride ,Marriage,waitlmg on groom to fetch bride,groom taking bride to heaven,

Uh,who would have thought that had anything to do with 1thes4 where the
BRIDE IS CAUGHT UP TO HEAVEN VIA THE GROOM.

Mat 25,and the bride/groom dimension is a game changer

I chuckle every time you guys weigh in with such creative verse disguises.

What is humorous is that you think the Lord is going to shut out His Bride.

I wonder if when postribs invoke the" history is the basis" card for their theories,if they realize those dead men they invoke as infallible were a millinialists or post millinialists???

Wouldn't that make the postribs heretics for incorrectly agreeing with the likes of the dreaded Darby

Paul was a Pre-Tribulation Teacher, plain and simple. He comforted the Thessalonians who thought...they were in the Tribulation.

And for the record, Post-Tribulation belief is not a heresy, it is just confusion due to poor study habits. And from what I understand about Darby, which is primarily what I have heard from what Post-Tribbers say (many of them have an intense hatred for Darby for some reason), he was pre-trib, not post-trib.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

Because that is something that cannot be known.

This is at the beginning of the Tribulation. At this point only five judgments have been unleashed. Those who try to make the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials all the same judgments run into some obvious problems. They fail to maintain thee fairly easy to follow timeline given in Revelation.

No, those Rev.6 verses about the 6th SEAL are not at the beginning... of the great tribulation. They are events to occur at the END of the tribulation with Jesus' 2nd coming!

Revelation places Christ's Return in Chapter 19.

You have put the horse in the cart and are dragging it backwards.

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

You simply deny the content of those Rev.6 Scriptures so you can keep your own FALSE tradition from men you follow.

Immediately following this we read...


Revelation 7

King James Version (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


This speaks of the judgments unleashed by God which follow the Seal Judgments.

Seems to me if this is the Lord's Return it would be the Angels they would seek to hide from. According to your doctrine.

The Tribulation is God's wrath poured out, not Satan's. It is the Seventieth Week of Daniel, and while Satan does seek to persecute those who are saved, you give him too much credit and erroneously depict him ads being in control.

You need a lot... more Bible study.


The great tribulation timing is Satan's time of wrath against God's people. The time of God's cup of wrath is at the END of the tribulation, just like that Scripture shows.

Well, here is something to study:


Revelation 11:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


If you'll notice this is said between the Second and Third Woe. That is, the 6th and 7th Trumpet Judgments, which follows the Seal Judgments. Now...whose wrath is it in view?

Here is another passage to consider:



Revelation 15

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

It's so unbelievable that you would reject what timing those events are for, that I have to think you're just a troll here, and not really a Christian.

Well, that is not surprising, because it is typical for many Post Tribulation believers to be rude and vitriolic, which is likely due to the fact that their doctrine sits unsettled inside of them, and the Pre-Tribulation View disrupts what they want to believe.

Your doctrine is loose, and you have a long way to go to show I am an unsaved troll, my friend.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

If you are on the way up you wont need an explanation. On the other hand if you find yourself in the tribulation, having checked all the right boxes I reckon you and many pre trib advocates will be desperate for one.

The Pre-Tribulation View is the only reasonable view.

The only way to make the Post Tribulation view work is to nullify Christ's teachings in regards to the Kingdom that will be established, and allow that unbelievers live through the Tribulation.

God bless.