the rapture

DP · Nov 17, 2015

You didn't stay with the subject in my quote.

The Vial timing I mentioned was the 6th vial, and it was about Jesus' warning to His Church that is STILL ON EARTH at that 6th vial timing:

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
KJV

Jesus reminds His Church there about the idea of His coming "as a thief", the same teaching Apostles Paul and Peter gave regarding the events of the "day of the Lord":

1 Thess 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
KJV

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

But your false pre-trib rapture doctrine instead says the Church is raptured prior that 6th vial, and that Jesus comes prior to that "day of the Lord" timing, EVEN THOUGH OUR LORD JESUS HIMSELF SAID HE COMES... "as a thief".

DP · Nov 17, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

That's all you can say, just more hot air affirmations with no Scripture?

I already showed in that post about Luke 17 the meaning of our Lord Jesus' answer to His disciples question of 'where' those taken would be taken to. And it is not to a pleasant place at all!

But your fly away preachers will still get up at the pulpit and lie, telling the deceived that they are going to be the FIRST one TAKEN in the field!!! (And they will be, if they keep listening to those false teachers).

Ahwatukee · Nov 17, 2015

DP said:

Hi DP,

Please show us any scripture from Rev.4 onward where you find the word Ekklesia/Church. You will not find it, which demonstrates that the Church is gone. From chapter 4 onward, all references are to the great tribulation saints, which is a different group of believers on the earth during the time of God's wrath. Even though there are plenty of places in the scripture within the narrative where the word "Church" could be inserted instead of "Saints," it never is. Why would you think that after Christ builds his church that he would then send it through his wrath. And if you don't think that a fourth of the earth being killed by sword, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth as not being wrath, then it is a problem on your part. A fourth of the earth's population would currently be 1.7 billion people in a short span of time.

Regarding the phrase "I come as a thief" Jesus' uses this for both the resurrection and catching away and for his return to the earth to end the age. If you think that God is going to put his Church through his wrath after it was already poured out on Christ as a result of our sins, then you don't understand God's nature. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up the wrath of God and therefore, the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened.

DP · Nov 17, 2015

pottersclay said:

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

Problem is, you're apparently not aware of how God's Word reveals events in different timelines, past, present, and future, even sometimes within the range of a single verse or couple of verses (Zech.9:9-10, the two separate comings of Christ).

That new song is not sung until this event here, which goes with that time period you read in Rev.4-5:

Rev 14:1-3
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
KJV

That "mount Sion" is Mount Zion in Jerusalem, on earth. That is when the saints will be before that throne, reigning over the nations with Christ Jesus.

The Bride:

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
KJV

Many are wrongly taught the Waters of Life are only a symbolic idea for our Lord Jesus. But per Gen.2 and Ezek.47 and Rev.22 it is an actual River that will flow out God's sanctuary in Jerusalem in the future, and all waters on the earth that come into its contact will be healed. That is also where the Tree of Life is, on earth side of that River per Ezek.47. God did say that He chose Jerusalem on earth as the place He will dwell forever. He is going to bring His New Jerusalem to that spot on earth and that's where that River is shown to manifest per Ezek.47. It is a return of His Eden like Gen.2 back to this earth.

Ezekiel 16 is God revealing His feelings for Jerusalem, and how He married Jerusalem, and that's where these wedding and bride metaphors originate. In Isaiah 54, that metaphor appears again, and some of it is applied to Christ's faithful saints. Yet the true Bride per God's Word is... Jerusalem.

Elijah was caught up to Heaven also and did not die. But he and Enoch will both be coming back when Jesus returns. Our Salvation in Christ Jesus is not up in the clouds, it's here on earth, for here is where God's heavenly city is going to be revealed.

But Lot and his were not removed from the earth, and that's the actual idea you are comparing Lot to.

Likewise with Noah and the ark, they were not the ones taken by the flood. They remained on earth, God having protected them.

Likewise with the plagues in Egypt, the children of Israel didn't have to leave Egypt for the angel of death to passover them. Now, Jesus Christ is our Passover sacrificed for us (1 Cor.5:7). That's why we need not worry about the events of the coming tribulation, but stay in Christ Jesus and don't be deceived, and be ready to give a Testimony for Him by The Holy Spirit if called upon (Mark 13). Put on the whole armor of God in order to "stand" in the "evil day" (Eph.6).

DP · Nov 17, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Hey man,

Greek 'ek' just denotes origin. It simply points back to its object relation, can't just make that mean whatever:

Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from (ek) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
KJV

What "hour" was Jesus referring to? The last hour of the workers in the field of Matt.20; the hour of being delivered up to give a testimony by The Holy Spirit per Mark 13; the same hour of Rev.9:15 when the four angels are loosed; the same hour the ten horns (kings) of Rev.17:12 receive power to rule with the beast king.

That's the specific "hour of temptation" timing, pointing to the time of great tribulation our Lord Jesus warned us about.

There is nothing written in that Rev.3:10 verse to show a rapture of the Church. That idea has to be ADDED to that. This is why our Lord Jesus said this immediately after that:

Rev 3:11-12
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.
KJV

What?? Hold fast? Overcome??

That's the same admonishing Jesus gave to the other Churches. If that meant a rapture prior to the tribulation, and that being how being kept from that hour of temptation, then why would they still need to "hold fast", and overcome?

The matter goes deeper, because those of the Church of Philadelphia were one of the only two Churches that Jesus had NO problem with. And one of the things they both understood, was about the "synagogue of Satan", meaning they recognized Christ's real enemies on earth that were the seat their persecutions. The other five Churches were being deceived, which is why Jesus rebuked them.

Why would it be important to be able to recognize the heart of Christ's enemies on earth? So as to make a stand for Him, that is why. These and the Church of Smyrna represent His elect that will not, and cannot, be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ. These are the ones He was speaking of that the false messiah would, IF it were possible, deceive by the great signs and wonders and miracles he will fool the whole world with (Matt.24:23-26; Rev.13:11 forward).

That is who this Church of Philadelphia represents, i.e, His faithful elect. That's why these have the open door set before involving the key of David, so NO man can deceive them. And what TIMING is shown in Matt.24:23-26 when that pseudo-Christ shows up in Jerusalem to work those great wonders? It is great tribulation timing, and these elect are right there... in the middle of it!

Why? Because they have a job to do for our Lord Jesus during that tribulation time, to make stand for Him giving a Witness by The Holy Spirit (Mark 13). That is the "evil day" Paul was talking about in Ephesians 6, and what we are to put on the whole armor of God for, so as to make that stand for Him in that hour of temptation.

No wonder the devil has his servants pushing the Pre-trib Rapture theory, because he hopes to trap even Christ's elect away from making that future stand for Jesus. Christ's Church need to learn to make that stand for Him in the last days, and not seek to escape physically, but spiritually by NOT being deceived.

So I hope you understand the point in that about those of the Church of Philadelphia being those elect servants of Matt.24:24. By claiming they are raptured to escape that "hour" is to remove them from that event Jesus taught us they will go through, because being kept from temptation means NOT BEING TEMPTED, not physical removal.

Ahwatukee · Nov 17, 2015

DP,

Regardless of anything that you have posted, Jesus is not going to build his church and then send it through his wrath, period! "EK" is exactly what I said it is and if you will go look at the Interlinear it confirms the meaning as "I will keep you 'out of' the hour of trial." All you're doing is misapplying scripture to fit your position as so many do. The bottom line is that, God is not going to put his Church through his wrath, which consists of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Please don't supply me with any scriptures to prove your position, because I have already examined anything that you could possibly come up with and have already debated it with other people for many years. They are only circumventions and misapplications of scripture. The church will be remove prior to the first seal being opened.

DP · Nov 17, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

So Jesus was speaking to whom in Rev.16:15 when He said He comes "as a thief"?

When our Lord Jesus says He comes as a thief, He is directly relating back to that metaphor which Apostles Paul and Peter used, that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

The pre-trib rapture preachers constantly use that "thief in the night" metaphor to teach WHAT?

They use it for the TIME OF THEIR RAPTURE!!!

Do you not understand that???

Right there on the 6th Vial Jesus says He comes "as a thief", so what... in the world is your doctor's pre-trib rapture theory idea of the rapture happening "as a thief in the night" doing there at that timing???

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
KJV

Not only that, but Jesus said there "Blessed is he that watcheth"! Where else did He give that?

Matt 24:42
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
KJV

Matt 25:13
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
KJV

Mark 13:33
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
KJV

Luke 12:37
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
KJV

But wait a minute, are those the SAME verses the Pre-trib Rapture doctors use to show the time of their rapture??? Yes!

Ahwatukee · Nov 17, 2015

Jesus is speaking to the great tribulation saints who were introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Everywhere you see the word "Saints" it is in reference to the great tribulation saints, as the church is never mentioned after the end of Rev.3. Until you understand that there is a difference between the resurrection and catching away and Christ's return to the earth to end the age as being different events, you will never understand.

popeye · Nov 17, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

"one taken,one left"
You painted yourself into a corner.
You have 1/2of the earths population as righteous and the other half wicked.
NO SUCH OF A THING.

But hey lets jetison the matching verse,"5 were wise,5were foolish"
Oops,that would upset whatever you're trying to prove.

So no matter what,your deal does not fit.
You guys literally made that up. There is no righteous left behind. No wicked gathered first.
There is mo 1/2 taken anywhere except mat 25,and you even distort that.

Bizarre.

DP · Nov 17, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Basing your evidence on that sole Greek 'ek' is very weak brother, especially when our Lord Jesus gave us the weightier strength of the order directly in His Word.

Being kept from temptation means not being tempted, period.

Here, I'll give a simple example:

In 1 Kings 13, God sent a man of God to king Jeroboam to witness God's Word against the king. The prophet was told by God to not stop and eat or drink, nor turn back to the same way he came. Then an old retired prophet of Bethel went out to meet the man of God, and lied to him, saying that an angel from God had told him it's OK to come home with him and eat and drink.

The man of God believed the old retired prophet, and went in with him and ate, and the result:

1 Kings 13:21-24
21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,
22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.
23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.
24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.
KJV

Do you see how the man of God was tempted by the old retired prophet? then God even using the retired prophet to judge him?

That is how the "hour of temptation" will be upon the whole world for the tribulation time, the false messiah and his servants telling Christ's servants that he is our Lord Jesus when that false messiah is a fake. Those not aware of that coming temptation will be subject to that 'hour'. Those like who the Church of Philadelphia represents will NOT be tempted in that hour, because they will KNOW that first messiah coming is false. It's not about physical removal in order to not be tempted, it's about understanding what's coming and how to make a stand for Christ to go through that hour.

DP · Nov 17, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

I'm aware that's what the pre-trib doctors teach, but no, the time of the resurrection and gathering to Christ Jesus is the SAME timing per Scripture:

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Right there in blue is the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15 which also is about the time of the resurrection, and even right there in 1 Thess.4:16 is the resurrection with "and the dead in Christ shall rise first".

popeye · Nov 17, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

What are you talking about?
You need to show where the heathen have purity,righteousness,and (by your own bizarre admition,the HS).

YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANY OF IT.

You literally butchered the parable

You are busted big time.
Please do explain this bizarre doctrine of righteous heathen that have the HS.
So far all you did was proclaim it as so,to avoid admitting you are wrong. You haven't shown us a parallel,or any verses.
Remember we need heathen with the HS,HEATHEN as righteous ,heathen with light,the righteous telling HEATHENS to go and purchase the HS,and heathen waiting for Jesus.

It is as if Jesus knew ppl would try and disguise such a no brainer story.

DP · Nov 17, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Let's look at something else where Scripture shows the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church...

2 Thess 2:1-12
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

Subject Paul brings up there can't be missed. The time of Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

That "day of Christ" is actually the idea 'day of the Lord', because the Greek word is really kurios (lord) and not christos (Christ). So right there, Paul gives another time marker for what events again? for the day of Christ's coming AND gathering of His Church.

And we KNOW already that the events on the "day of the Lord" will occur "as a thief in the night" per Paul in 1 Thess.5, and per Peter in 2 Pet.3:10, and Jesus per Rev.16:15.

So where's you're pre-trib rapture in this 2 Thess.2 Scripture? It IS NOT THERE! If a pre-trib rapture is supposed to happen, then Paul should... have mentioned it there, but he did NOT, because the "day of the Lord" only will occur at the END of the tribulation according to God's Word.

Yet I noticed you have even that point wrong, by saying the Rev.3 "hour of temptation" is the day of the Lord timing when it is instead the great tribulation timing, this timing here Paul is outlining.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul says, don't be deceived, for that "day", what day? That "day of Christ" he mentioned, which is actually a reference to the "day of the Lord". That day won't come except first a falling away happens, AND that false one comes to sit in the temple of God exalting himself over all that called God, or that is worshiped.

That's a reference to the pope??? No, it's a reference to the same pseudo-Christ Jesus warned His about in the Matt.24:23-26 Scripture, the same false one per the Daniel prophecy that will place the "abomination of desolation" in a temple in Jerusalem, the same "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, for the Matt.24, Rev.13, and this Scripture evidence by Apostle Paul is revealing the same kind of false working of great signs and wonders that false one is to deceive the world with.

So the question is, how is it that coming false one MUST be revealed first sitting in the temple in Jerusalem, PRIOR to the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church that Paul is teaching here?

And please don't give me false ideas like that temple of God there is not about a physical temple in Jerusalem, that instead it's the spiritual temple of Christ's body, which idea is hogwash since the spiritual temple of Eph.2 is built upon the Apostles, the prophets, and Jesus as its Head Cornerstone, meaning no false one could ever... corrupt Christ's true spiritual temple. A believer cuts their self off from Christ's spiritual temple if they fall away, but the spiritual temple can NEVER be corrupted.

The time is soon coming when the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem will build another temple. They've already got the materials ready to do it, and articles of worship, and Levite priests, etc. It is required per the prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel and per our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

thebesttrees · Nov 17, 2015

I see many posters here talk about the WRATH. Can we discuss what the Bible defines wrath to be before we jump into conclusions? In particular,

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Ahwatukee · Nov 17, 2015

thebesttrees said:

Good day thebesttrees,

Sixth Seal:
"For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”

Seventh Trumpet:
"The nations were angry,and your wrath has come.

Seventh Bowls:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed"

So, we have the wrath of God mentioned in each set of the seven plagues, which are the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. To confirm that that they are all of God's judgments, the seven bowls are treated as a unit which are referred to as the "Last Plagues" which will complete God's wrath. Therefore, since the bowls are referred to as being last, then other plagues of judgment would have to be first or prior to the bowls, which would be the seals and trumpets.

This time of wrath that is coming will be unprecedented, as Jesus referred to that time, with the events of the beast and the false prophet included, as "a time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again." It will also be unprecedented in the sense that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are specifically being initiated by God through the Lamb, Jesus Christ, for He is the One who will be opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, with lead into the bowls. It is meant to decimate the population of the earth (Zeph.1) and dismantle human government to make way for Christ's literal, millennial kingdom. This wrath, which was prophesied in part by the prophets of old, is listed in detail in the book of Revelation and will fulfill the prophecy regarding "the Day of the Lord."

This time of wrath is what is quickly approaching and will be initiated when that political leader makes his seven year covenant with Israel and most likely Palestine/Islam, initiating the completion of the seventieth seven of Daniel's prophecy. Anyone who is here to see this will have not been ready when the Bridegroom/Jesus came for his Bride/Church prior to this seven year covenant being made. Following that, the second seal will be opened, that red horse and its rider, removing peace from the entire earth so that the inhabitants will kill each other, with the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowls to follow.

pottersclay · Nov 17, 2015

Ahwatukee I think we have our work cut out for us if they want to learn.

Ahwatukee · Nov 17, 2015

pottersclay said:

Good evening pottersclay,

Yeah, I would have to agree with you as that seems to be the case. I would rather that there be unity regarding scripture, but that doesn't ever seem to be the case. All we can do is present the scriptures and pray. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." That being said and without any other presentation of scripture on their part, Jesus is not going to build his church and then send it through his time of wrath! Since the entire earth is going to be exposed to God's wrath, the plagues of the two witnesses, as well as the events of the beast and the false prophet, there will be no where to be protected on earth and therefore, the Church will be removed prior to that first seal being opened. The only groups that will be protected will be the woman/Israel who will be cared for by God out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years, as well as the 144,000. The great tribulation saints aren't even protected during the time of God's wrath, which chapter 7:16 demonstrates. All you can do is continue to contend for the truth and pray that God would open their eyes.

pottersclay · Nov 17, 2015

amen bro amen

Porter · Nov 18, 2015

fontaine143 said:

Hi fontaine, I personally do not interpret a lot Scriptures literally like most. Christ only taught in parables (Mat. 13:34, Mar. 4:34) and the parable of the ten virgins describes what it will be like at Christ's second coming. And if you'll notice Jesus doesn't take the wise virgins away in a "rapture", He comes back with them into the house.

Mat 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Besides the word rapture is no where found in Scriptures. It's just people like to infer from Scriptures what really isn't there. This rapture theory is so divisive as you can see. It really shouldn't be this way.

As for the beast and 666, the bible says he will deceive "the whole world" (Rev. 13:14-17). Does the bible lie? Is it possible this "beast" has already deceived the whole world and they have already and unwittingly accepted the mark? Most would say no and call the Word of God a lie and that they in fact were not deceived as the bible says they were.
Fontaine if your really interested in learning more check these papers out.

Who is the Beast? - 666? @ L. Ray Smith - THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part 13

Exposing The Secret Rapture Theory [A Divisive Theory Deceiving Millions!] @ Exposing the

Porter · Nov 18, 2015

Wow I messed up the formatting somehow. Here it is again lol.

Who is the beast 666? L. Ray Smith - THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part 13

Exposing the secret rapture theory www.bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

the rapture

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