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Jesus told the Disciples that those taken would be with Vultures, ' Where the corpse is the Vultures will gather together'
If you are postrib,and need the Noah example to fit,then you need Noah delivered after the flood.
Besides that,Noah enters the ark PREFLOOD/PREJUDGMENT.
AS DOES THE BRIDE IN THE RAPTURE.
Either way you have Jesus being confused by your assertion that lot was removed prejudgment and Noah rescued After the flood?
Pretrib position doesn't need any such disguises.
You guys vulture theory doesn't fly (pun time) either.
Jesus did not answer the question. Simple as that.
In effect he was saying "where there's smoke there's fire"
So,you got them all wrong,but now you're out of that trap.
The point is that those who are taken are taken in judgment. "Where the eagles are" represents the Supper of the Great God, and the imagery is of physical death and their carcasses becoming fodder for carrion birds, which Ezekiel 39 speaks also of beasts:
Ezekiel 39
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Those who are not taken, like Noah, like Lot...survive physically. Those taken perish, and that fits the Lord's teachings in regards to the Millennial Kingdom, meaning that nothing that offends will enter into that Kingdom, only those who are born again.
God bless.
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Well, for you...you might want to start with actually reading the posts.
You have our roles reversed, lol...I am the one saying that the five foolish are unsaved, because they are known of Christ.
Now if you can produce any Scripture anywhere that suggests one can be saved without being known of Christ, I'd like to see it.
Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion when I am the one saying they are unsaved:
Where do you see undefiled in the text?
As I said before, you are merging two texts and the result is erroneous conclusion.
In this parable, the distinction is wise versus foolish.
Please read the posts.
You are wasting time and space.
What is disguised is this post being a response to what I actually said.
Whether they are male or female or have known men or women makes no difference, the bottom line is that they are not known of the Lord and are shut out of the Kingdom.
Here is a hint that in view is the Kingdom of Heaven:
Matthew 25
King James Version (KJV)
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
On the contrary, it is because they have no oil, which I believe represents the Holy Spirit, that they are shut out.
But we do not deny the fact that the unsaved partake of the Holy Spirit:
John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Not one of the Disciples had received the Holy Ghost when they were sent out to preach the Kingdom of Heaven, cast out devils, and heal. How do you think they did so? Their own power?
Please try to give a little more attention to the posts.
God bless.
You have our roles reversed, lol...I am the one saying that the five foolish are unsaved, because they are known of Christ.
Now if you can produce any Scripture anywhere that suggests one can be saved without being known of Christ, I'd like to see it.
Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion when I am the one saying they are unsaved:
Where do you see undefiled in the text?
As I said before, you are merging two texts and the result is erroneous conclusion.
In this parable, the distinction is wise versus foolish.
Please read the posts.
You are wasting time and space.
What is disguised is this post being a response to what I actually said.
Whether they are male or female or have known men or women makes no difference, the bottom line is that they are not known of the Lord and are shut out of the Kingdom.
Here is a hint that in view is the Kingdom of Heaven:
Matthew 25
King James Version (KJV)
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
On the contrary, it is because they have no oil, which I believe represents the Holy Spirit, that they are shut out.
But we do not deny the fact that the unsaved partake of the Holy Spirit:
John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Not one of the Disciples had received the Holy Ghost when they were sent out to preach the Kingdom of Heaven, cast out devils, and heal. How do you think they did so? Their own power?
Please try to give a little more attention to the posts.
God bless.
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It's not made up by men, it is a very simple Bible Teaching most are able to understand.
And it cannot be speaking of Noah:
Luke 17:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Noah and Lot were not destroyed.
On the contrary, it is the only reasonable conclusion to make, as it fits with the Sheep and Goat Judgment, where the saved (Sheep) enter into the Kingdom and the lost (Goats) are destroyed.
Half of the world's population dies in the Tribulation, then we see the armies destroyed by Christ when He returns, then we see the angels gather and the Sheep and Goat Judgment of Matthew 25 takes place, which leaves no room for a half and half theory, because no number is given to either group. We do not have to impose a hyper-literal understanding to one taken and one left, though there is no reason such a view would be unreasonable, due to the many deaths of the unbelieving during the Tribulation.
God bless.
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A few exchanges and you have already deemed me unsaved, lol. Yeah, you really show you have the love of Christ in your heart.
It's not irrelevant. It shows that a doctrinal view not expressly stated by the Apostles can arise at a later date in the Church.
But the fact is that Paul taught a Pre-Tribulation view. We do not have to look to the 18th century for this truth, we simply acknowledge that Paul made it clear that the Church will be raptured as a whole, both living and dead, and the events described by John show that the Church is not found in the events when they unfold.
Where do you think these people...
Revelation 20:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
...come from?
The descendants of glorified Saints?
Stop and think about it: if the rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation, there are no physical believers left to repopulates the earth and provide these unbelievers at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
So as I said, the Pre-Tribulation View is the only reasonable view to adopt.
No unbelievers will enter into that Kingdom:
Matthew 13:47-48
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP]Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
This is speaking of the gathering that Angels do when the Kingdom is established, and Christ speaks more in-depth in Matthew 25.
Your doctrine takes into consideration...only part of the Scripture.
You stop before the teaching is finished.
Keep reading into Matthew 25.
I am confident my doctrine bears out Scriptural teaching, and I do not stop before getting halfway through what is given us in regards to the rapture, Tribulation, and Return of Christ.
You explain how the entire Church can be glorified at the end of the Tribulation and Revelation 20 still be fulfilled.
The Millennial Kingdom will be made up of physical believers that live through the Tribulation (the Sheep of Matthew 25), from whom the descendants that rebel against God come from.
Only Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of the Tribulation...not the entire Church, both dead and alive as Paul taught in regards to the Rapture.
Well, if I could get you to put your personal attacks on hold and get you to actually discuss Scripture, I have all confidence that you doctrine will be shown to have some serious problems.
But this is typical of Post-Trib believers, lol. Can't debate the doctrine so of course they have to fall back on Darby insults and question the salvation of their antagonists.
I have to apologize, your doctrine is such that I believed you were an A-millennial.
Perhaps you are a Progressive Dispensationalist, that group is seriously confused as well, and adopt such nonsensical interpretations that deny the sequence of events as described in Revelation.
That you have the Tribulation ending with the sixth Seal indicates a spiritualizing of the texts and a nullification of that which follows.
Christ is clearly presented as returning in Chapter 19...after all the Judgments are unleashed.
Actually, you are only talking about part of what Christ taught.
And when we lay Matthew 24 to the backdrop of Revelation, we see that the events of Matthew 24 depict the Tribulation, and Matthew 25 depicts His Return, and nowhere in either do we see a Rapture.
That is not my concern, as to what men believed prior to the 1800's, my only concern is what Scripture teaches.
And the first point that defines a First Century Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the very simple point that it is impossible for the Church to be Glorified at the end of the Tribulation, as it leaves no physical believers on the earth. All unbelievers are destroyed, so if the Church is glorified, then we have to skip Revelation 20 and jump straight to the Eternal State.
The Second point is that only Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of the Tribulation.
The third point is that we do not see the Church in the events described.
Your obsession with the 1800's is not my concern, your loose handling of Scripture, and making it void is.
No, because you slander Darby, and myself I call it slander.
There is no truth to doctrine that only includes part of Scripture.
There is no truth in doctrine that results in people who are as hateful as yourself.
Now that...is laughable.
A few posts and you declare people unsaved.
And you have the nerve to speak of people convincing themselves of something.
If you want to discuss the doctrine, let me know. If you want to simply rail against people who see the weakness of your doctrine, have at it.
And here is the Rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
In the Rapture, the Lord gathers the Church, whereas in the Second Coming Angels gather.
In the Rapture the entire Church, both living and dead are glorified, whereas in the Second Coming only Tribulation Martyrs are raised.
In the Rapture, we ascend upward, being caught up, whereas at the Second Coming we come down, and believers remain physical.
There is no question that the verses you quote refer to a Post-Tribulation event, however...there is no Rapture in those texts.
I agree. Now turn the page and read Matthew 25.
Read Luke 17.
When He returns believers remain physically alive, and are the ones who enter into the Kingdom.
Who counters it? lol
I simply leave it in it's context, rather than try to make a Rapture passage out of it.
What should sound an alarm is someone saying they care and then declaring someone unsaved.
I would agree. Now turn the page and keep reading, there is still quite a bit to go in Revelation after the Seals are opened.
And what was His promise to those who overcome?
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I agree, the Scripture was given that we might understand what is going to happen.
And the Pre-Tribulation View is the only view that is not riddled with inconsistencies and the need to nullify more than half of the Prophecy given us in Revelation.
Great, you build your doctrine around part of Scripture, and I will build mine with the Whole Counsel of God's Word.
And not once question your salvation, lol. You see, I understand one can be saved and seriously confused.
God bless.
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You can say that after you have answered my posts in detail.
Your doctrine is unclear and I thought you were a-millennial, seeing you have adopted a spiritualizing of texts in your understanding.
That is simply incorrect: the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was taught by Paul, who yearned for the Rapture in His day:
2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Paul is speaking about being glorified here, not just dying and going to be with the Lord, in which state he would be "unclothed."
Our "house from Heaven" is the glorified body we will receive at the Rapture, whether we are dead (and unclothed, in spirit form in Heaven) or alive.
Perhaps if you learned to better communicate your position you would not have people mistaking your doctrine as a-millennial, lol.
But thanks for the lesson.
And only the Pre-Tribulation believer can place his doctrine into the context of Scripture...all of it.
Your doctrine has everyone in the Millennial Kingdom...glorified.
Well, they, as you...were in error on a number of issues.
And my guess is because they started giving more authority to what men say about the Bible than what the Bible actually teaches.
As you do.
As I said, if you want to discuss the beliefs of Early Church Fathers, feel free. But if you want to actually discuss the Rapture then try to stick with what Scripture teaches, and perhaps we can get you straightened out on your view, which is an impossibility because it has everyone going into the Millennial Kingdom glorified, as well as the fact that we have explicit teaching that shows only Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of the Tribulation, not the entire Church.
Secondly, we see the Rapture of the Two Witnesses 3 1/2 years earlier, which also does not fit with Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture, which teaches all believers, both dead and alive...are all raptured at the same time.
Your doctrine has serious issues, and I'll be glad to help you sort through them, in hopes that you will understand the impossibility of a Post-Tribulation Rapture.
God bless.
Your doctrine is unclear and I thought you were a-millennial, seeing you have adopted a spiritualizing of texts in your understanding.
That is simply incorrect: the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was taught by Paul, who yearned for the Rapture in His day:
2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Paul is speaking about being glorified here, not just dying and going to be with the Lord, in which state he would be "unclothed."
Our "house from Heaven" is the glorified body we will receive at the Rapture, whether we are dead (and unclothed, in spirit form in Heaven) or alive.
Perhaps if you learned to better communicate your position you would not have people mistaking your doctrine as a-millennial, lol.
But thanks for the lesson.
And only the Pre-Tribulation believer can place his doctrine into the context of Scripture...all of it.
Your doctrine has everyone in the Millennial Kingdom...glorified.
Well, they, as you...were in error on a number of issues.
And my guess is because they started giving more authority to what men say about the Bible than what the Bible actually teaches.
As you do.
As I said, if you want to discuss the beliefs of Early Church Fathers, feel free. But if you want to actually discuss the Rapture then try to stick with what Scripture teaches, and perhaps we can get you straightened out on your view, which is an impossibility because it has everyone going into the Millennial Kingdom glorified, as well as the fact that we have explicit teaching that shows only Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of the Tribulation, not the entire Church.
Secondly, we see the Rapture of the Two Witnesses 3 1/2 years earlier, which also does not fit with Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture, which teaches all believers, both dead and alive...are all raptured at the same time.
Your doctrine has serious issues, and I'll be glad to help you sort through them, in hopes that you will understand the impossibility of a Post-Tribulation Rapture.
God bless.
P
Each judgment is independent of the other, and we know this because we see differences in them.
For example:
Revelation 8:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Revelation 16:3
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
No way to make them the same judgments.
God bless.
Then you simply limit your thinking ability, because the wicked on the 6th seal wanting to hide from the wrath of the Lamb is an event that occurs on the day of Christ's return. It aligns with the events of Christ's coming in Rev.19.
In Rev.11:14 forward with the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe timing, you won't find a direct Scripture telling us Jesus' coming is right then either, but it's not needed to know that's what happened at that point of all the kingdoms of this world becoming those of The Father and His Son, and the time of His wrath there also, and the rewards handed out to the saints, etc.
I'd hate to think that is how you approach study in the OT prophets, because Christ's Revelation is laid out in a similar style of events moving very fast in the past, present, and future. The Rev.7 chapter is a change of subject from the seals. It is about God sealing His servants before allowing the four winds to blow (do you know where that four winds idea was first written?). How is it your mind does not allow you to recognize that change of subject in Rev.7?
The 3rd Woe starts with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, just as the previous Woes do with their trumpets.
The 3rd Woe is a woe upon the wicked with God's cup of wrath poured out upon them on the day of Jesus' coming. If you had done your homework in the OT prophets, you would have known those events are about the "day of the Lord", and they occur very quickly.
Don't stop at Rev.15, because Rev.16 is where the Vials are laid out. And if you look on the 6th Vial, Jesus is warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief". It's because His one and only time of return and gathering of His Church is on the very next 7th Vial, because that is when He comes to pour His wrath upon the wicked on this earth. That's what the battle of Armageddon is about, which aligns with the events of Ezekiel 39.
The doctrine you hold to is just a choice from men that you've made. You can't support it from Scripture without twisting Scripture to try and force it into God's Word. If it were a valid doctrine per God's Word, then you would be able to explain why that event of Christ's wrath is shown in the 6th Seal with the wicked wanting to hide:
Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb":
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV
Because you refuse to accept the simplicity of that Scripture that God's wrath "is come" at that point, you instead show you put your trust in man, and not God.
In Rev.11:14 forward with the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe timing, you won't find a direct Scripture telling us Jesus' coming is right then either, but it's not needed to know that's what happened at that point of all the kingdoms of this world becoming those of The Father and His Son, and the time of His wrath there also, and the rewards handed out to the saints, etc.
I'd hate to think that is how you approach study in the OT prophets, because Christ's Revelation is laid out in a similar style of events moving very fast in the past, present, and future. The Rev.7 chapter is a change of subject from the seals. It is about God sealing His servants before allowing the four winds to blow (do you know where that four winds idea was first written?). How is it your mind does not allow you to recognize that change of subject in Rev.7?
The 3rd Woe starts with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, just as the previous Woes do with their trumpets.
The 3rd Woe is a woe upon the wicked with God's cup of wrath poured out upon them on the day of Jesus' coming. If you had done your homework in the OT prophets, you would have known those events are about the "day of the Lord", and they occur very quickly.
Don't stop at Rev.15, because Rev.16 is where the Vials are laid out. And if you look on the 6th Vial, Jesus is warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief". It's because His one and only time of return and gathering of His Church is on the very next 7th Vial, because that is when He comes to pour His wrath upon the wicked on this earth. That's what the battle of Armageddon is about, which aligns with the events of Ezekiel 39.
The doctrine you hold to is just a choice from men that you've made. You can't support it from Scripture without twisting Scripture to try and force it into God's Word. If it were a valid doctrine per God's Word, then you would be able to explain why that event of Christ's wrath is shown in the 6th Seal with the wicked wanting to hide:
Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb":
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV
Because you refuse to accept the simplicity of that Scripture that God's wrath "is come" at that point, you instead show you put your trust in man, and not God.
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I usually don't get into discussions like this sense the majority of the mid trib and post trib people have made up their mind that there view is right regardless of what scripture says.
So I decided to lay out some bread crumbs to consider.
Obviously I am pre trib so let me scatter some crumbs to consider for those who really are seeking and have no problem of being corrected or humbled as the spirit moves them.
In rev 4:1 the voice that John hears is like a trumpet( not a trumpet) which is the voice of the Lord relating back to Moses and Israel on mt Sinai notice what it says, ( come up here) and immediately John was in the spirit.
The new song that is sung is a picture of the church in heaven, look at rev 4:9-10 (who redeemed us)
Paul said we are a new creature in Christ Jesus.
In Luke 12:36 Jesus talks about his return after the wedding, well you can't have a wedding without a bride.
Enoch walked with God gen 5:24 (we are told to walk in the light as he is in the light) and Enoch did not die the Lord took him.
Notice the story of lot, judgement could not start untill he was removed. Gen 19:22 God does not judge the righteous with the unrightous.
Just a few crumbs I have more but please keep in mind the rapture and second coming are two different things. Also the trumpets is not the voice of God but the voice of God can be heard as a trumpet.
As well as many waters and so on.
Peace to all
So I decided to lay out some bread crumbs to consider.
Obviously I am pre trib so let me scatter some crumbs to consider for those who really are seeking and have no problem of being corrected or humbled as the spirit moves them.
In rev 4:1 the voice that John hears is like a trumpet( not a trumpet) which is the voice of the Lord relating back to Moses and Israel on mt Sinai notice what it says, ( come up here) and immediately John was in the spirit.
The new song that is sung is a picture of the church in heaven, look at rev 4:9-10 (who redeemed us)
Paul said we are a new creature in Christ Jesus.
In Luke 12:36 Jesus talks about his return after the wedding, well you can't have a wedding without a bride.
Enoch walked with God gen 5:24 (we are told to walk in the light as he is in the light) and Enoch did not die the Lord took him.
Notice the story of lot, judgement could not start untill he was removed. Gen 19:22 God does not judge the righteous with the unrightous.
Just a few crumbs I have more but please keep in mind the rapture and second coming are two different things. Also the trumpets is not the voice of God but the voice of God can be heard as a trumpet.
As well as many waters and so on.
Peace to all
Not being able to recognize the simplicity in God's Holy Writ, like what I showed with Christ's wrath on the 6th Seal, is a sign of listening to another spirit. If you remain listening to that other spirit, then what makes you think that won't put you with the ten foolish virgins?
Yes, you bringing up a different subject there was irrelevant to the discussion of the pre-trib rapture theory. And I actually do... read Christ's Apostles teaching the idea of a triune Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Can you not count to 3?
Do you know what an affirmation statement is? It's a proposed statement of fact, without actual support as fact. That's all you're doing there. Just saying something is so does not make it so per God's Word. Beating on the pulpit while making affirmations doesn't prove anything either, except that you're able to beat on the pulpit.
That kind of reasoning is defective, because, you show you do not actually understand... what the idea of being "caught up" in 1 Thess.4 means.
Those events at Rev.20:7-9 occur upon the earth. That "camp of the saints" is where our Lord Jesus and His elect will reign from over those nations outside the city for that "thousand years". That's why The Father in Heaven rains down fire burning those wicked up when they try to come up against that camp of the saints.
So what KIND of body are those saints in while there upon the earth at that "camp of the saints"? If you believe God's Word about the idea of a rapture at all, then you should understand they are in their resurrection bodies at Christ's coming, for that is when we are changed to the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, on the last trumpet. Did you not know that the resurrection body can walk and live upon this earth, and eat man's food???
Have you even forgotten what Jesus said about the resurrection, that they don't marry nor take in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven? Your re-population of the earth idea with physical bodies is a doctrine of flesh from men; it is especially a Jewish Talmudic tradition.
The Matt.25 separation between Christ's sheep and the goats He does on the day of His coming, at the start of that future "thousand years" of Rev.20. That's when that "camp of the saints" on earth is established with His de facto reign over the nations with a rod of iron there with His elect. Have you not read about that in the OT prophet Ezekiel?
What? Are you referring to Matt.25:46 with the goats going into everlasting punishment? Have you forgotten the events of Rev.20 already, the time of God's Great White Throne Judgment not being until AFTER the thousand years are over? Just because our Lord Jesus didn't specifically mention that "thousand years" period within Matt.25 doesn't mean it won't happen like He revealed later through John in Rev.20. Not being able to understand that is like throwing away His Revelation He gave us through Apostle John. Even Paul showed he was familiar with a time of Christ's future reign over the nations prior to God's Eternity (1 Cor.15:23-28).
You keep making affirmations with no Scriptural proof. So how am I to take you seriously? I'm like those of Berea; I don't just take other's word for it like you do.
If I took the time to explain that to you per Scripture, you wouldn't believe it because of your listening to another spirit. You have to show trust in God's Word AS WRITTEN first, for me to go into all that. So far, you've only posted Scripture that doesn't support your pre-trib rapture view, while making simple affirmations that it does.
See, that's a man-made idea dreamed up to try and give support for the pre-trib theory. Christ's sheep represent His Church, all of those who believe on The Father through His Son's Blood shed on the cross. Or did you not understand what our Lord Jesus said about His sheep in John 10???
John Darby in the 1830's is who fabricated that idea, by his theory of Dispensationalism. He taught the idea of "tribulation saints" as those who come to believe on Christ during the tribulation. He also taught that Israel will be established on earth in the flesh during Christ's "thousand years" reign while the Church only is resurrected and living in Heaven.
But his ideas on that are false, and are only fabricated to try and create support for the pre-trib rapture idea. He had to create those ideas, because both OT and NT Scripture is clear about God's re-establishing all 12 tribes of Israel again in the lands of promise with Christ's promise to His Apostles that they would sit upon thrones judging over the 12 tribes, and there's especially a lot of OT Scripture that bears that re-establishing in final, so Darby knew he would have looked like a fool rejecting all that Biblical evidence about the re-establishing of all 12 tribes of Israel.
Those of the whole... Church that remain faithful to the end of the tribulation are gathered by Christ Jesus with His asleep saints on the day of His coming. That specifically was Apostle Paul's message in 2 Thessalonians 2, as some had crept in among those at Thessalonica and had confused the timing of his message of 1 Thess.4.
Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to Jerusalem with ALL HIS SAINTS. That's means His WHOLE CHURCH, not just part of it. And the existence of the "camp of the saints" upon the breadth of the earth per Rev.20:9 is further proof of that return to this earth and His reign with His elect upon the earth, as promised per Rev.5:10.
Yes, you bringing up a different subject there was irrelevant to the discussion of the pre-trib rapture theory. And I actually do... read Christ's Apostles teaching the idea of a triune Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Can you not count to 3?
Do you know what an affirmation statement is? It's a proposed statement of fact, without actual support as fact. That's all you're doing there. Just saying something is so does not make it so per God's Word. Beating on the pulpit while making affirmations doesn't prove anything either, except that you're able to beat on the pulpit.
That kind of reasoning is defective, because, you show you do not actually understand... what the idea of being "caught up" in 1 Thess.4 means.
Those events at Rev.20:7-9 occur upon the earth. That "camp of the saints" is where our Lord Jesus and His elect will reign from over those nations outside the city for that "thousand years". That's why The Father in Heaven rains down fire burning those wicked up when they try to come up against that camp of the saints.
So what KIND of body are those saints in while there upon the earth at that "camp of the saints"? If you believe God's Word about the idea of a rapture at all, then you should understand they are in their resurrection bodies at Christ's coming, for that is when we are changed to the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, on the last trumpet. Did you not know that the resurrection body can walk and live upon this earth, and eat man's food???
Have you even forgotten what Jesus said about the resurrection, that they don't marry nor take in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven? Your re-population of the earth idea with physical bodies is a doctrine of flesh from men; it is especially a Jewish Talmudic tradition.
The Matt.25 separation between Christ's sheep and the goats He does on the day of His coming, at the start of that future "thousand years" of Rev.20. That's when that "camp of the saints" on earth is established with His de facto reign over the nations with a rod of iron there with His elect. Have you not read about that in the OT prophet Ezekiel?
What? Are you referring to Matt.25:46 with the goats going into everlasting punishment? Have you forgotten the events of Rev.20 already, the time of God's Great White Throne Judgment not being until AFTER the thousand years are over? Just because our Lord Jesus didn't specifically mention that "thousand years" period within Matt.25 doesn't mean it won't happen like He revealed later through John in Rev.20. Not being able to understand that is like throwing away His Revelation He gave us through Apostle John. Even Paul showed he was familiar with a time of Christ's future reign over the nations prior to God's Eternity (1 Cor.15:23-28).
You keep making affirmations with no Scriptural proof. So how am I to take you seriously? I'm like those of Berea; I don't just take other's word for it like you do.
If I took the time to explain that to you per Scripture, you wouldn't believe it because of your listening to another spirit. You have to show trust in God's Word AS WRITTEN first, for me to go into all that. So far, you've only posted Scripture that doesn't support your pre-trib rapture view, while making simple affirmations that it does.
See, that's a man-made idea dreamed up to try and give support for the pre-trib theory. Christ's sheep represent His Church, all of those who believe on The Father through His Son's Blood shed on the cross. Or did you not understand what our Lord Jesus said about His sheep in John 10???
John Darby in the 1830's is who fabricated that idea, by his theory of Dispensationalism. He taught the idea of "tribulation saints" as those who come to believe on Christ during the tribulation. He also taught that Israel will be established on earth in the flesh during Christ's "thousand years" reign while the Church only is resurrected and living in Heaven.
But his ideas on that are false, and are only fabricated to try and create support for the pre-trib rapture idea. He had to create those ideas, because both OT and NT Scripture is clear about God's re-establishing all 12 tribes of Israel again in the lands of promise with Christ's promise to His Apostles that they would sit upon thrones judging over the 12 tribes, and there's especially a lot of OT Scripture that bears that re-establishing in final, so Darby knew he would have looked like a fool rejecting all that Biblical evidence about the re-establishing of all 12 tribes of Israel.
Those of the whole... Church that remain faithful to the end of the tribulation are gathered by Christ Jesus with His asleep saints on the day of His coming. That specifically was Apostle Paul's message in 2 Thessalonians 2, as some had crept in among those at Thessalonica and had confused the timing of his message of 1 Thess.4.
Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to Jerusalem with ALL HIS SAINTS. That's means His WHOLE CHURCH, not just part of it. And the existence of the "camp of the saints" upon the breadth of the earth per Rev.20:9 is further proof of that return to this earth and His reign with His elect upon the earth, as promised per Rev.5:10.
Hi Mantvydas,
Your claim above might be applicable if everyone was coming to the conclusion of the resurrection and catching away (rapture) if they were obtaining that information from Scofield, but that is not the case. The scriptures of 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53, etc., makes it very clear (without Scofield or anyone else) that the event of the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to him is imminent. The belief that the resurrection and catching away will take place prior to the tribulation is based on the fact that Paul said that believers are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God. Though many slice and dice the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments dividing them up between tribulation and wrath to support their positions, I personally believe that all three sets of these judgments are to be considered as God's wrath and that because Jesus is the One opening the seals, making Him the One who is initiating God's wrath.
Therefore, it is neither from Scofield nor any other source that has brought me to my conclusions regarding the order in which the resurrection and catching away takes place, but by Scripture only. Furthermore, in order to be swayed by Scofield I would have to have a Scofield study Bible, which I don't have, have never read, and have never owned.
Your claim above might be applicable if everyone was coming to the conclusion of the resurrection and catching away (rapture) if they were obtaining that information from Scofield, but that is not the case. The scriptures of 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53, etc., makes it very clear (without Scofield or anyone else) that the event of the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to him is imminent. The belief that the resurrection and catching away will take place prior to the tribulation is based on the fact that Paul said that believers are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God. Though many slice and dice the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments dividing them up between tribulation and wrath to support their positions, I personally believe that all three sets of these judgments are to be considered as God's wrath and that because Jesus is the One opening the seals, making Him the One who is initiating God's wrath.
Therefore, it is neither from Scofield nor any other source that has brought me to my conclusions regarding the order in which the resurrection and catching away takes place, but by Scripture only. Furthermore, in order to be swayed by Scofield I would have to have a Scofield study Bible, which I don't have, have never read, and have never owned.
Hi Pottersclay,
I would like to add to what you said in that, I believe that the "voice that sounds like a trumpet" where John is being caught up is prophetic of the church and is synonymous with the "Trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16. In other words, in Rev.4:1 where Jesus is calling John up with a voice that that sounds like a trumpet, I believe that this is the fulfillment of the trumpet call of God in 1 Thes.4:16. That being true, it would be another proof of the church being gathered to the Lord prior to the first seal being opened.
I would like to add to what you said in that, I believe that the "voice that sounds like a trumpet" where John is being caught up is prophetic of the church and is synonymous with the "Trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16. In other words, in Rev.4:1 where Jesus is calling John up with a voice that that sounds like a trumpet, I believe that this is the fulfillment of the trumpet call of God in 1 Thes.4:16. That being true, it would be another proof of the church being gathered to the Lord prior to the first seal being opened.
Well, I apologize for what I said before, about doubting your Christian belief. Yet I know proper Biblical understanding about the timing of our Lord Jesus 2nd coming is going to be one of the most important matters involving which group of ten virgins one will be part of when He arrives. But don't forget that you've played the antagonist against me too.
Seems to be a lot amill folks on this forum. I'm not one of them.
No, not a Dispensationalist either. I'm simply not a Darbyite at all. As for the proper sequence of events in Revelation, there's a difference between the order of the events given, and the order in which John was shown them by vision. Just because your doctrine teaches you to deny the timing of Christ's wrath on the 6th Seal as written, that shows how they're understanding of the proper sequence is skewed away from Scripture.
Yes, when the time comes for God's cup of wrath to be poured out upon the wicked, that is... the end point of the time of great tribulation. It is day of the Lord timing, a phrase the OT prophets used, and both Apostles Paul and Peter used to mark those events in understanding for Christ's Church (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; 2 Thess.2:2 "day of Christ" which is actually "Lord" with Greek kurios). Some here hate being reminded of that "day of the Lord" phrase because they can't get around it within God's Holy Writ.
But what the Pre-Trib Rapture theory teaches instead, is that the saints are raptured prior to that tribulation, are in Heaven throughout it, and then come back to earth with Jesus on the day of the Lord. That's actually a 2nd and another 3rd coming of Christ Jesus, when Scripture declares only two times of Christ's coming, His first one to die on the cross, and His second one on the "day of the Lord" to end the tribulation (Zech.9:9-10; the portion of Isaiah 61 that Jesus read in Luke 4, stopping after the first phrase of Isaiah 61:2, with the last phrase of that verse being for His future second coming). Even Zechariah 14 shows Christ returning with all His saints to the area of Jerusalem on earth, and all nations bowing then to Him as LORD and King (which is the Millennium timing).
I know you've been taught to deny the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which IS about the gathering of His saints at His second coming, but there it is. A closer look at where those two Scriptures reveal that gathering is to reveals it is perfectly in line with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the two different groups of saints, the asleep saints and the saints still alive on earth on that day.
Furthermore, the signs our Lord Jesus gave there in Matt.24 and Mark 13 were the signs of the seals of Rev.6, for the seal order in Rev.6 follows His layout of signs there in His Olivet Discourse. The last sign He gave in His Olivet Discourse was that of His second coming and gathering of His Church, both from Heaven and from the earth.
The first sign Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 reveals the identity of the rider on the white horse of Rev.6 as not being Him, and reveals why that is given at the first of the seals, even though that event doesn't happen until another seal (which is also why Rev.6 does not specifically say that rider on the white horse is the first seal; it is assumed only to be the first seal by the majority). It's there first in Rev.6 because that was our Lord's first sign of warning in His Olivet Discourse, that to not allow any man to deceive us, which is in relation to the idea of the false Christs in that chapter, and specifically a pseudochristos singular false one (Matt.24:23-26) that is to come and cause the placing of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel.
It should be a concern, since pre-trib scholars of the past even admitted that the doctrine only originated in 1830's Great Britain. Later pre-trib rapture scholars have instead been busy trying to do revisionist history to say it the Church had it much earlier when it did not. So there's a riff even within their own scholar community.
As for Scripture, so far you've proven nothing Scripture-based concerning the pre-trib rapture doctrine, while I have shown how God's Word is against it. Thus your affirmations that it is so vs. God's Word that shows Christ's coming and gathering of His saints is after the tribulation; which one should a believer on Jesus Christ keep?
Now it is YOU that is doing slandering, even by that "part of Scripture" idea you've dreamed up, when it's actually you that have been chopping the Scriptures up in order to try and prove the false pre-trib rapture theory.
I cannot feel sorry for people like John Nelson Darby. He has misled many, and the relation with Cyrus Scofield is even worse.
Christ only is our Judge. I can only say one is in danger and not that they have lost their salvation in Him.
And those on the pre-trib rapture doctrine are... in danger.
Your further false affirmations still do not work either. You cannot affirm... yourself into Heaven. You either follow what our Lord Jesus commanded, or you don't. And one of His commandments was to stay in His Word, and not in man's word like John Darby.
Let's go over that 1 Thess.4 Scripture again:
1 Thess 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
Paul is telling them not to worry about the alseep saints that have already died, for Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes. That's only ONE coming.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The KJV word "prevent" is actually precede per the Greek. Those of us still alive on earth will in no way 'precede' the alseep saints that have already died. They are already there.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Christ descends to earth with that shout, and trump, the "last trump" Paul labeled it in 1 Cor.15. That is the same 7th trumpet of Rev.11:14 forward. At that point our Lord Jesus is returning, on His way to this earth, and bringing the alseep saints with Him.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Then at that same time, the saints still alive on earth are caught up to meet Him with the asleep saints He brings with Him. Paul does not say here exactly where Jesus and these two groups of saints joined are going, but the Zechariah 14 Scripture does tell us, and it is back to this earth, in the area of Jerusalem.
There is NOTHING about two different comings of Christ Jesus written there in 1 Thess.4. The false pre-trib rapture doctrine you keep wrongly ADDS another coming of Christ to that Scripture where it does not exist!
The difference is this:
Scripture - last trump, dead raised, Jesus' coming with His alseep saints, Jesus gathering His alive saints on earth, Jesus with all of them go to Jerusalem which is "day of the Lord" timing.
Pre-trib Rapture theory - NOT the last trump, prior to trib, Jesus comes to rapture His alive saints on earth, goes back to Heaven, asleep saints still asleep, on last trump end of trib Jesus comes with both "asleep" saints and "caught up" saints.
All that underlined part is an ADDITION by men to the 1 Thess.4 Scriptures. It is simply not there by Apostle Paul.
That "trump of God" of 1 Thess.4:16:
Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
KJV
That specifically is the 7th trumpet of Rev.11. Notice what events take place on that 7th Trumpet:
Rev 11:14-18
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Just like that previous Rev.10:7 said, that 7th trumpet sounding ends the wicked's reign in Jerusalem, and then all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son, Jesus beginning His eternal reign at that moment.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV
Now what did Paul say again about that 'trump' in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture???
1 Thess.4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Notice that time of Jesus coming with His alseep saints, the dead in Christ raised, and the alive saints being "caught up" with them is to occur on that "trump of God", the same 7th trumpet of Rev.11, and the same "last trump" Paul declared in 1 Cor.15:52:
1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV
It just doesn't take much thinking to understand by those Scripture alignments that our Lord Jesus' second coming and gathering of His saints is a one-time event that will occur to end the time of great tribulation He warned of. If the believer allows those Scriptures to interpret itself, that is the only solid conclusion.
Already been through Matt.25, which is about Christ's Church; that's who His sheep are. So that separation is NOT about only Jews in some left-behind theory. It is about all wicked separated from among His sheep on the day of His coming, the sheep put on His right hand actually about the "caught up" event when He comes. The ONLY ones that will enter in the holy city ("camp of the saints" and "beloved city" of Rev.20:9) with Christ to reign with Him are His faithful elect of His Church. The unfaithful, like the unprofitable servant, and five foolish virgins, will be cast in the outer darkness, outside the gates of the holy city, where the wicked will be (Rev.22:14-15; Matt.25; Matt.8; Matt.22).
As for Luke 17, the ones 'taken' are taken into deception by the coming Antichrist. When Jesus' disciples ask Him 'where' those are taken, He says wheresover the carcase (the dead) is, that's where the vultures are gathered (Matt.24:28; end of Luke 17).
So much for your false theories on all that. And since long ago, the Pre-trib Rapture doctors have used that Luke 17 idea of the first being 'taken' to mean Christ's rapturing His Church, while the wicked are left-behind! A simple reading of Christ's answer to His disciple's question in the last verse of Luke 17 reveals how completely... wrong those doctors are!
My reference was to the gathering of the saints by Jesus in the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture. I don't know what you're referencing. I've been told by many on the pre-trib idea that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture was meant for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church, just another excuse for denial of written Scripture many of them use.
I don't know if you are saved or not. That's up to our Lord Jesus. But you put yourself in danger by not staying with Scripture as written, and I will tell you why.
Serious Bible study in all of God's Word as written (and with help in going into the manuscripts), reveals the coming of a pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem for the end of this world. That was what our Lord Jesus was specifically talking about in the Matt.24:23-26 verses, and Apostle Paul in the 2 Thess.2:1-7 verses, and Apostle John in the Rev.13 chapter, and Paul again in the 2 Cor.11 chapter about the "another Jesus".
2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 I hope you will be patient with me as I keep on talking like a fool. Do bear with me and let me say what is on my heart.
2 I am anxious for you with the deep concern of God himself-anxious that your love should be for Christ alone, just as a pure maiden saves her love for one man only, for the one who will be her husband.
3 But I am frightened, fearing that in some way you will be led away from your pure and simple devotion to our Lord, just as Eve was deceived by Satan in the Garden of Eden.
4 You seem so gullible: you believe whatever anyone tells you even if he is preaching about another Jesus than the one we preach, or a different spirit than the Holy Spirit you received, or shows you a different way to be saved. You swallow it all.
TLB
That is the danger you place yourself in, i.e, falling away to that coming "another Jesus" or pseudochristos of Matt.24:23-26 our Lord Jesus warned us about for the tribulation. That was Paul's warning again the 2 Thess.2:4 Scripture about that false one coming to exalt himself in place of God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.
Many brethren are going to fall away to that false messiah who comes first. The Church will still be here for that tribulation, which is why Paul warned us about that coming false one, and in 1 Thess.5 even gave us some event markers to be watching for it (when the deceived say, "Peace and safety" is one of those events).
Will that coming false messiah with the power to work great signs and miracles on earth pull off some kind of fake rapture? Yes, that I strongly believe. And if you understood who that false one will be, you'd no doubt agree. Your leaders in the pre-trib rapture doctrine are going to be telling you that false one is our Lord Jesus coming to gather us. It won't be our Lord Jesus.
The ONLY way to know when our Lord Jesus comes to gather us, is to be changed to the resurrection body at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. That event I don't think the coming false messiah will be able to pull off. But the creation of images of a fake rapture of others, yes, and then a command to flock to Jerusalem to worship him.
Seems to be a lot amill folks on this forum. I'm not one of them.
No, not a Dispensationalist either. I'm simply not a Darbyite at all. As for the proper sequence of events in Revelation, there's a difference between the order of the events given, and the order in which John was shown them by vision. Just because your doctrine teaches you to deny the timing of Christ's wrath on the 6th Seal as written, that shows how they're understanding of the proper sequence is skewed away from Scripture.
Yes, when the time comes for God's cup of wrath to be poured out upon the wicked, that is... the end point of the time of great tribulation. It is day of the Lord timing, a phrase the OT prophets used, and both Apostles Paul and Peter used to mark those events in understanding for Christ's Church (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; 2 Thess.2:2 "day of Christ" which is actually "Lord" with Greek kurios). Some here hate being reminded of that "day of the Lord" phrase because they can't get around it within God's Holy Writ.
But what the Pre-Trib Rapture theory teaches instead, is that the saints are raptured prior to that tribulation, are in Heaven throughout it, and then come back to earth with Jesus on the day of the Lord. That's actually a 2nd and another 3rd coming of Christ Jesus, when Scripture declares only two times of Christ's coming, His first one to die on the cross, and His second one on the "day of the Lord" to end the tribulation (Zech.9:9-10; the portion of Isaiah 61 that Jesus read in Luke 4, stopping after the first phrase of Isaiah 61:2, with the last phrase of that verse being for His future second coming). Even Zechariah 14 shows Christ returning with all His saints to the area of Jerusalem on earth, and all nations bowing then to Him as LORD and King (which is the Millennium timing).
I know you've been taught to deny the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which IS about the gathering of His saints at His second coming, but there it is. A closer look at where those two Scriptures reveal that gathering is to reveals it is perfectly in line with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the two different groups of saints, the asleep saints and the saints still alive on earth on that day.
Furthermore, the signs our Lord Jesus gave there in Matt.24 and Mark 13 were the signs of the seals of Rev.6, for the seal order in Rev.6 follows His layout of signs there in His Olivet Discourse. The last sign He gave in His Olivet Discourse was that of His second coming and gathering of His Church, both from Heaven and from the earth.
The first sign Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 reveals the identity of the rider on the white horse of Rev.6 as not being Him, and reveals why that is given at the first of the seals, even though that event doesn't happen until another seal (which is also why Rev.6 does not specifically say that rider on the white horse is the first seal; it is assumed only to be the first seal by the majority). It's there first in Rev.6 because that was our Lord's first sign of warning in His Olivet Discourse, that to not allow any man to deceive us, which is in relation to the idea of the false Christs in that chapter, and specifically a pseudochristos singular false one (Matt.24:23-26) that is to come and cause the placing of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel.
It should be a concern, since pre-trib scholars of the past even admitted that the doctrine only originated in 1830's Great Britain. Later pre-trib rapture scholars have instead been busy trying to do revisionist history to say it the Church had it much earlier when it did not. So there's a riff even within their own scholar community.
As for Scripture, so far you've proven nothing Scripture-based concerning the pre-trib rapture doctrine, while I have shown how God's Word is against it. Thus your affirmations that it is so vs. God's Word that shows Christ's coming and gathering of His saints is after the tribulation; which one should a believer on Jesus Christ keep?
Now it is YOU that is doing slandering, even by that "part of Scripture" idea you've dreamed up, when it's actually you that have been chopping the Scriptures up in order to try and prove the false pre-trib rapture theory.
I cannot feel sorry for people like John Nelson Darby. He has misled many, and the relation with Cyrus Scofield is even worse.
Christ only is our Judge. I can only say one is in danger and not that they have lost their salvation in Him.
And those on the pre-trib rapture doctrine are... in danger.
Your further false affirmations still do not work either. You cannot affirm... yourself into Heaven. You either follow what our Lord Jesus commanded, or you don't. And one of His commandments was to stay in His Word, and not in man's word like John Darby.
Let's go over that 1 Thess.4 Scripture again:
1 Thess 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
Paul is telling them not to worry about the alseep saints that have already died, for Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes. That's only ONE coming.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The KJV word "prevent" is actually precede per the Greek. Those of us still alive on earth will in no way 'precede' the alseep saints that have already died. They are already there.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Christ descends to earth with that shout, and trump, the "last trump" Paul labeled it in 1 Cor.15. That is the same 7th trumpet of Rev.11:14 forward. At that point our Lord Jesus is returning, on His way to this earth, and bringing the alseep saints with Him.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Then at that same time, the saints still alive on earth are caught up to meet Him with the asleep saints He brings with Him. Paul does not say here exactly where Jesus and these two groups of saints joined are going, but the Zechariah 14 Scripture does tell us, and it is back to this earth, in the area of Jerusalem.
There is NOTHING about two different comings of Christ Jesus written there in 1 Thess.4. The false pre-trib rapture doctrine you keep wrongly ADDS another coming of Christ to that Scripture where it does not exist!
The difference is this:
Scripture - last trump, dead raised, Jesus' coming with His alseep saints, Jesus gathering His alive saints on earth, Jesus with all of them go to Jerusalem which is "day of the Lord" timing.
Pre-trib Rapture theory - NOT the last trump, prior to trib, Jesus comes to rapture His alive saints on earth, goes back to Heaven, asleep saints still asleep, on last trump end of trib Jesus comes with both "asleep" saints and "caught up" saints.
All that underlined part is an ADDITION by men to the 1 Thess.4 Scriptures. It is simply not there by Apostle Paul.
That "trump of God" of 1 Thess.4:16:
Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
KJV
That specifically is the 7th trumpet of Rev.11. Notice what events take place on that 7th Trumpet:
Rev 11:14-18
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Just like that previous Rev.10:7 said, that 7th trumpet sounding ends the wicked's reign in Jerusalem, and then all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son, Jesus beginning His eternal reign at that moment.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV
Now what did Paul say again about that 'trump' in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture???
1 Thess.4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Notice that time of Jesus coming with His alseep saints, the dead in Christ raised, and the alive saints being "caught up" with them is to occur on that "trump of God", the same 7th trumpet of Rev.11, and the same "last trump" Paul declared in 1 Cor.15:52:
1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV
It just doesn't take much thinking to understand by those Scripture alignments that our Lord Jesus' second coming and gathering of His saints is a one-time event that will occur to end the time of great tribulation He warned of. If the believer allows those Scriptures to interpret itself, that is the only solid conclusion.
Already been through Matt.25, which is about Christ's Church; that's who His sheep are. So that separation is NOT about only Jews in some left-behind theory. It is about all wicked separated from among His sheep on the day of His coming, the sheep put on His right hand actually about the "caught up" event when He comes. The ONLY ones that will enter in the holy city ("camp of the saints" and "beloved city" of Rev.20:9) with Christ to reign with Him are His faithful elect of His Church. The unfaithful, like the unprofitable servant, and five foolish virgins, will be cast in the outer darkness, outside the gates of the holy city, where the wicked will be (Rev.22:14-15; Matt.25; Matt.8; Matt.22).
As for Luke 17, the ones 'taken' are taken into deception by the coming Antichrist. When Jesus' disciples ask Him 'where' those are taken, He says wheresover the carcase (the dead) is, that's where the vultures are gathered (Matt.24:28; end of Luke 17).
So much for your false theories on all that. And since long ago, the Pre-trib Rapture doctors have used that Luke 17 idea of the first being 'taken' to mean Christ's rapturing His Church, while the wicked are left-behind! A simple reading of Christ's answer to His disciple's question in the last verse of Luke 17 reveals how completely... wrong those doctors are!
My reference was to the gathering of the saints by Jesus in the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture. I don't know what you're referencing. I've been told by many on the pre-trib idea that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture was meant for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church, just another excuse for denial of written Scripture many of them use.
I don't know if you are saved or not. That's up to our Lord Jesus. But you put yourself in danger by not staying with Scripture as written, and I will tell you why.
Serious Bible study in all of God's Word as written (and with help in going into the manuscripts), reveals the coming of a pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem for the end of this world. That was what our Lord Jesus was specifically talking about in the Matt.24:23-26 verses, and Apostle Paul in the 2 Thess.2:1-7 verses, and Apostle John in the Rev.13 chapter, and Paul again in the 2 Cor.11 chapter about the "another Jesus".
2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 I hope you will be patient with me as I keep on talking like a fool. Do bear with me and let me say what is on my heart.
2 I am anxious for you with the deep concern of God himself-anxious that your love should be for Christ alone, just as a pure maiden saves her love for one man only, for the one who will be her husband.
3 But I am frightened, fearing that in some way you will be led away from your pure and simple devotion to our Lord, just as Eve was deceived by Satan in the Garden of Eden.
4 You seem so gullible: you believe whatever anyone tells you even if he is preaching about another Jesus than the one we preach, or a different spirit than the Holy Spirit you received, or shows you a different way to be saved. You swallow it all.
TLB
That is the danger you place yourself in, i.e, falling away to that coming "another Jesus" or pseudochristos of Matt.24:23-26 our Lord Jesus warned us about for the tribulation. That was Paul's warning again the 2 Thess.2:4 Scripture about that false one coming to exalt himself in place of God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.
Many brethren are going to fall away to that false messiah who comes first. The Church will still be here for that tribulation, which is why Paul warned us about that coming false one, and in 1 Thess.5 even gave us some event markers to be watching for it (when the deceived say, "Peace and safety" is one of those events).
Will that coming false messiah with the power to work great signs and miracles on earth pull off some kind of fake rapture? Yes, that I strongly believe. And if you understood who that false one will be, you'd no doubt agree. Your leaders in the pre-trib rapture doctrine are going to be telling you that false one is our Lord Jesus coming to gather us. It won't be our Lord Jesus.
The ONLY way to know when our Lord Jesus comes to gather us, is to be changed to the resurrection body at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. That event I don't think the coming false messiah will be able to pull off. But the creation of images of a fake rapture of others, yes, and then a command to flock to Jerusalem to worship him.
To be kept from that "hour of temptation" means given to understand the main event of the tribulation Jesus warned His about, that of not allowing any man to deceive us, His first sign in Matt.24 and in Rev.6 about the rider on the white horse as an imposter of Christ's coming. Remember the end of Luke 17, Jesus' answer of where the ones taken was wheresover the dead carcase is, that's where the vultures will be.
Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
Matt 24:28
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
NIV
There you go trying to make Affirmations again with no substance. Just you're saying a thing is so does not make it so.
My doctrine is Christ's Doctrine per His Word as written, even as I have shown with Scripture while revealing how your doctrine actually counters the written Scripture.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
Matt 24:28
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
NIV
There you go trying to make Affirmations again with no substance. Just you're saying a thing is so does not make it so.
My doctrine is Christ's Doctrine per His Word as written, even as I have shown with Scripture while revealing how your doctrine actually counters the written Scripture.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
"The Hour of trial" is synonymous with "The day of the Lord." The word "EK" is used here, which means "out of" and so Jesus is saying that for those who keep the patience of his word, he will keep them "out of" the time of God's wrath which is coming upon the earth, which would be a reference to the resurrection and catching away. Expositors usually distort this scripture because it destroys their position, just like they do to many of the scriptural proofs.
So you believe when people die, they literally are in the casket in the ground, literally asleep? Even though Paul used the idea of 'asleep', there are many Scriptures to show what actually happens after flesh death. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals the "silver cord" is severed, and our flesh body goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. In Matt.10:28, our Lord Jesus told us to not fear those who can kill our body (flesh), and not our soul. That means our spirit with soul has continued existence immediately after... death in the flesh. And that is the kind of idea Apostle Paul is speaking of there in 2 Cor.5, even with this verse:
2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV
Thus the theory that we are literally asleep in a hole in the ground is an old Jewish wive's tale from a fleshy reasoning, and not how God actually reveals it in His Word.
Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.
KJV
The malefactor crucified with Jesus that believed on Him obviously was intending that He remember Him much later when Jesus inherits His throne from David. But our Lord Jesus showed him that day, he would be with Him in God's Paradise. But what part? The man's spirit with soul that goes back to God at flesh death. Jesus' example of the Luke 16 story of Lazarus and the rich man is another show of that kind of working.
Perhaps if you didn't try to interpret Scripture always in the light of men's traditions you wouldn't make that mistake.
That's yet some more of your false Affirmations.
Not concerning the order and timing of Christ's coming and gathering His Church. They aligned directly with God's Word as written, whereas the doctrine of men you keep does not, as I have already shown.
Nice try at attempting to delegate YOUR error to me, because those are exactly the things you are doing by following a 1800's tradition from the Irvingite Church and John Darby.
2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV
Thus the theory that we are literally asleep in a hole in the ground is an old Jewish wive's tale from a fleshy reasoning, and not how God actually reveals it in His Word.
Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.
KJV
The malefactor crucified with Jesus that believed on Him obviously was intending that He remember Him much later when Jesus inherits His throne from David. But our Lord Jesus showed him that day, he would be with Him in God's Paradise. But what part? The man's spirit with soul that goes back to God at flesh death. Jesus' example of the Luke 16 story of Lazarus and the rich man is another show of that kind of working.
Perhaps if you didn't try to interpret Scripture always in the light of men's traditions you wouldn't make that mistake.
That's yet some more of your false Affirmations.
Not concerning the order and timing of Christ's coming and gathering His Church. They aligned directly with God's Word as written, whereas the doctrine of men you keep does not, as I have already shown.
Nice try at attempting to delegate YOUR error to me, because those are exactly the things you are doing by following a 1800's tradition from the Irvingite Church and John Darby.
The ten virgins represent BELIEVERS on Christ Jesus, His Church:
2 Cor 11:2-3
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
KJV
That is also why Jesus said this right after He gave that parable of the ten virgins:
Matt 25:13
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
KJV
Was Jesus saying that to the unbelievers of Israel? God forbid, no. It was and is... to His Church.
2 Cor 11:2-3
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
KJV
That is also why Jesus said this right after He gave that parable of the ten virgins:
Matt 25:13
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
KJV
Was Jesus saying that to the unbelievers of Israel? God forbid, no. It was and is... to His Church.