The Rapture

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J7

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What did Hymenaeus and Philetus believe, and how were they in error?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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What did Hymenaeus and Philetus believe, and how were they in error?
They believed the same thing most Christians today believe - the 1st resurrection is a one time event... the bible doesn't say it's a one time event.

They were in error because they saw the MASSIVE resurrection that took place with Jesus and ASSUMED the 1st (one time event) was already passed.
 

J7

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There are two resurrections aren't there,

one to life

and one to death
 
Nov 23, 2013
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There are two resurrections aren't there,

one to life

and one to death
Two TYPES, yes. two EVENTS, no. The 1st resurrection (resurrection of life) at Christ's resurrection was the FIRSTFRUITS, the resurrection of life (1st resurrection) when Jesus returns will be the main harvest.
 

J7

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[FONT=&quot]John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
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[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.[/FONT]
 
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John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Revelation 20 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
John 5:28 - the 1st (resurrection of life) at Christ resurrection - the firstfruits of the resurrection of life.

Revelation 20:3 - the 1st (resurrection of life) at Christ's return - the main harvest of the resurrection of life. The rest of the dead are not raised here, they are raised after the 1000 years - the 2nd resurrection - the resurrection of damnation.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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No problem. Since I know your position I would like to ask if you can prove the sharp distinction between Israel and the Church from the Bible. Does not the Scriptures teach we are fellowcitizens of Israel?
Not to mention, how can you get cut off from a race if Jews are a race of people, since in the Old Testament people were cut off from the people for many things, including failing to observe the Sabbath, among other things.
Well besides the promises that God made to them as a people that must be fulfilled, in Daniel 9:24-27 there is a decree pronounced on Israel and Jerusalem of seventy 'sevens' i.e. seventy sets of seven years. This seventy sets of seven years is divided up into three parts:

1) 7 sevens (49 yrs) to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

2) 62 sevens (434 yrs) at the end of which Messiah would be cut off/crucified

3) 1 seven - He (antichrist) will establish a covenant for one seven

After 7 sevens and 62 sevens (69 sevens) Christ was crucified. At that time God put a hold or paused the last seven years to be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lords return to the earth to end the age and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the church dead and living. After that, God will push the "resume" button in fulfillment of that last seven that he put on hold, which will be initiated by that antichrist making his covenant with Israel. God will essentially be picking up right where he left off with Israel.

The church is a different entity made up of both Jew and Gentile, who have received Christ as their Lord and Savior by grace through faith. Where Israel did not receive Christ as their Messiah and is attempting to inherit the kingdom of God through the works of the Law. God knowing this ahead of time, will be dealing with the unbelieving nation Israel during that last seven years, as well as the rest of the world. Regarding this, Paul said the following:

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."

The church will be removed from the earth prior to that last seven years because, but the unbelieving nation Israel, will remain on the earth in for that last seven years in fulfillment of the following:

"
to finish[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place." - Dan.9:24

During the millennium the Lord will rule from Jerusalem, which will be the capital of the world during that time.

I hope that your questions were answered somewhere in there. :D
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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They believed the same thing most Christians today believe - the 1st resurrection is a one time event... the bible doesn't say it's a one time event.

They were in error because they saw the MASSIVE resurrection that took place with Jesus and ASSUMED the 1st (one time event) was already passed.
Didn't Paul refute them concerning the resurrection as not having occurred as when he wrote 2 Timothy in approx 67 AD? Didn't you tell me that you thought the OT saints resurrected and ascended with Christ? So, aren't you in the same camp as Hymenaeus and Philetus?

Then there are those who don't believe Paul wrote any of the pastorals, such as Norman Perrin and Kummel who maintain that 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus were second century writings.
 

J7

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Apr 2, 2017
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Cough cough. Ahwatukee, Mr Liar

Retraction still awaited
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Didn't Paul refute them concerning the resurrection as not having occurred as when he wrote 2 Timothy in approx 67 AD? Didn't you tell me that you thought the OT saints resurrected and ascended with Christ? So, aren't you in the same camp as Hymenaeus and Philetus?

Then there are those who don't believe Paul wrote any of the pastorals, such as Norman Perrin and Kummel who maintain that 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus were second century writings.
First off, I believe every word of God in all 66 books. No Paul didn't refute them for saying the 1st resurrection had come, he refutted them for saying it was ALREADY PASSED, in other words for saying the 1st resurrection was over and done. The 1st resurrection (resurrection of life) did occur when Jesus was raised, but it wasn't OVER, the main harvest still has to come in.

2 Timothy 2:18 KJV
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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First off, I believe every word of God in all 66 books. No Paul didn't refute them for saying the 1st resurrection had come, he refutted them for saying it was ALREADY PASSED, in other words for saying the 1st resurrection was over and done. The 1st resurrection (resurrection of life) did occur when Jesus was raised, but it wasn't OVER, the main harvest still has to come in.

2 Timothy 2:18 KJV
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
I'm still confused on your position. Are you saying that the 1st resurrection started in 30 AD with Christ and is continual or that the first resurrection has two parts, those OT saints and John the Baptist rose with Christ and all others will rise in the future at the end of the world?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I'm still confused on your position. Are you saying that the 1st resurrection started in 30 AD with Christ and is continual or that the first resurrection has two parts, those OT saints and John the Baptist rose with Christ and all others will rise in the future at the end of the world?
I don't think it's continual as in when we die right now we are immediately resurrected. I'm saying that the 1st resurrection (the resurrection of life) takes place in at least 2 parts. It's a harvest just like harvesting vegetables. The first fruits come in first and then the main harvest comes in later.
 
May 11, 2014
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I don't think it's continual as in when we die right now we are immediately resurrected. I'm saying that the 1st resurrection (the resurrection of life) takes place in at least 2 parts. It's a harvest just like harvesting vegetables. The first fruits come in first and then the main harvest comes in later.
That is what the whole rapture idea is built upon. How the harvests worked in the Old Testament. You had the first fruits, the main harvest and then the gleaning.
 
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1 Corinthians: 15. 23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. - Bible Offline

Christ wasn't the ONLY firstfruit raised at his resurrection.
 
May 11, 2014
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I don't think the people resurrected in Matthew 27 had glorified bodies? Notice these individuals rose before Jesus did. Jesus just gave up the ghost, then these people were resurrected, Jesus rose 3 days later.

This resurrection I would say was similar to the resurrection of Lazarus, and the people in the Old Testament through Elijah who indeed died again.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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I don't think it's continual as in when we die right now we are immediately resurrected. I'm saying that the 1st resurrection (the resurrection of life) takes place in at least 2 parts. It's a harvest just like harvesting vegetables. The first fruits come in first and then the main harvest comes in later.
Code:
:clap:/CODE]

well done, now we are getting somewhere
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I don't think the people resurrected in Matthew 27 had glorified bodies? Notice these individuals rose before Jesus did. Jesus just gave up the ghost, then these people were resurrected, Jesus rose 3 days later.

This resurrection I would say was similar to the resurrection of Lazarus, and the people in the Old Testament through Elijah who indeed died again.
Matthew: 27. 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Bible Offline

The Graves were opened when he died. They were resurrected AFTER Jesus was resurrected.
 

J7

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Apr 2, 2017
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That is what the whole rapture idea is built upon. How the harvests worked in the Old Testament. You had the first fruits, the main harvest and then the gleaning.
Go on..................
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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Matthew: 27. 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Bible Offline

The Graves were opened when he died. They were resurrected AFTER Jesus was resurrected.
:clap: :clap:

Fantastic - learning a lot today