The Rapture
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Good day Muzungu256'
Regarding what PlainWord said below:
There couldn't be a past return of Christ and that because it would go against what Jesus said below:
"So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
Just like lightning that flashes in the east and can be seen in the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. This is of course in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age where every eye shall see Him and not to be confused with the gathering of the church where only those being gathered will see him.
The reason that PW says that there will be no future great tribulation or antichrist or gathering, is because he has been deceived with the teaching of preterism. However, they are soon going to find out the truth regarding this when they realize the church has been removed from the earth and shortly thereafter when that ruler/anichirst establishes a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple. Hopefully when these things begin to take place, the preterist's will realize that they were wrong and will join the ranks of the great tribulation saints.
Regarding what PlainWord said below:
There couldn't be a past return of Christ and that because it would go against what Jesus said below:
"So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
Just like lightning that flashes in the east and can be seen in the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. This is of course in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age where every eye shall see Him and not to be confused with the gathering of the church where only those being gathered will see him.
The reason that PW says that there will be no future great tribulation or antichrist or gathering, is because he has been deceived with the teaching of preterism. However, they are soon going to find out the truth regarding this when they realize the church has been removed from the earth and shortly thereafter when that ruler/anichirst establishes a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple. Hopefully when these things begin to take place, the preterist's will realize that they were wrong and will join the ranks of the great tribulation saints.
Good day Rickyz,
Do you really believe that? I'm surprised! First of all, the gathering of the church (rapture) is a group event and not an individual event. According to Phil.1:23 and 2 Cor.5:6, when a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not the rapture. 1 Thes.4:13-17 reveals that the gathering of the church as being a group event, for it states that the dead in Christ shall rise first and then those who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will meet the resurrected group in the air. Once the dead have been raised and the living have been changed and caught up, this will include the entire church, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that the Lord went to prepare for us.
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
Suffice to say, the scripture above shows the gathering of the church (rapture) to be a group event and not something that takes place when each person dies.
When a person dies it has to do with the spirit/soul leaving the body. When the resurrection takes place, it has to do with the spirit/soul being reunited with that now immortal and glorified body. Those who are still living will just be changed on the spot.
Do you really believe that? I'm surprised! First of all, the gathering of the church (rapture) is a group event and not an individual event. According to Phil.1:23 and 2 Cor.5:6, when a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not the rapture. 1 Thes.4:13-17 reveals that the gathering of the church as being a group event, for it states that the dead in Christ shall rise first and then those who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will meet the resurrected group in the air. Once the dead have been raised and the living have been changed and caught up, this will include the entire church, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that the Lord went to prepare for us.
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
Suffice to say, the scripture above shows the gathering of the church (rapture) to be a group event and not something that takes place when each person dies.
When a person dies it has to do with the spirit/soul leaving the body. When the resurrection takes place, it has to do with the spirit/soul being reunited with that now immortal and glorified body. Those who are still living will just be changed on the spot.
No! When Jesus comes for the church, He is not returning to the earth, but will appear in the atmosphere to gather the church, which will happen in an instant. From there He will take the entire church back to the Father's house in heaven.
In opposition, the second coming is when the Lord will descend from heaven at the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out and will physically and visually return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
The first event will be specifically to gather and remove the church prior to God's wrath.
The second event will be when the Lord literally returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and we will be returning with him riding on white horses - Rev.17:14, 19:14
In opposition, the second coming is when the Lord will descend from heaven at the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out and will physically and visually return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
The first event will be specifically to gather and remove the church prior to God's wrath.
The second event will be when the Lord literally returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and we will be returning with him riding on white horses - Rev.17:14, 19:14
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since the rapture is resurrection right, how many can there be???? Jesus returns only once in rev19 then in 20 it says the first resurrection. if rapture already happened before jesus return, how many resurrections? i wont lie when i first read thru the bible i honestly got the impression that 7th trumpet = rapture cause it matched 1cor15 and other passages that mention last trumpet.....
My understanding is: it is NOT A COMING UNTIL HIS FEET TOUCH THE GROUND.
Zechariah 14:3-4 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
The APPEARING in the clouds is the Rapture, when we are called out to go to the New Dwelling Place in Heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb. EVEN ACCORDING TO JEWISH WEDDING TRADITIONS, the Bridegroom did not go all the way to the Bride's dwelling place; (they are called Bride and Bridegroom from the Betrothal on). Instead the Bridegroom sends a designated member of His Wedding Party to go on to the Bride's dwelling place to CALL HER OUT and take her to meet the Bridegroom, where He stopped.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
THUS THAT IS NOT A COMING, but rather an APPEARING.
The two events are VASTLY DIFFERENT. The APPEARING is VERY FAST like lightning and the COMING is VERY SLOW, giving the Armies of the World time to gather in the Jezzreal Valley for the Battle of Armageddon.
Matthew 24:27 (YLT) Young's Literal Translation
[SUP]27 [/SUP] for as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man;
{NOT WHEN HE IS COMING TO MAKE WAR ON THE NATIONS, AS KING OF KINGS.}
NOTICE: The Literal Translation, DOES NOT USE THE WORD "COMING", which by using the word "COMING", only creates the false impression that there are two Second Comings.
Revelation 19:19-21 (YLT)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;
{Not even remotely close to being like lighning.}
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast--the two--to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and the rest were killed with the sword of him who is sitting on the horse, which sword is proceeding out of his mouth, and all the birds were filled out of their flesh.
That is why my favorite verse is:
Titus 2:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
The word coming is Parousia in Greek and means "body presence" 2nd Thessalonians uses what is called a Grandsville Sharp in the Greek and literally states the following....
I beseech you brethern in view of the BODY PRESENCE OF CHRIST, THAT IS TO SAY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM......the COMING OF JESUS IS OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO CHRIST
There is ONLY 1 COMING OF JESUS.....Revelation states it like this...
was <---past tense
is <---present tense
is to COME <---FUTURE TENSE
ALL THINGS MUST JIVE WITH ONE COMING (PAROUSIA, BODY PRESENCE) of Christ!
I beseech you brethern in view of the BODY PRESENCE OF CHRIST, THAT IS TO SAY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM......the COMING OF JESUS IS OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO CHRIST
There is ONLY 1 COMING OF JESUS.....Revelation states it like this...
was <---past tense
is <---present tense
is to COME <---FUTURE TENSE
ALL THINGS MUST JIVE WITH ONE COMING (PAROUSIA, BODY PRESENCE) of Christ!
this is how i thought it too but mr dcontroversal can you tell me when does the rapture happen then? when i first read the bible by myself without any outside interference or influence or opinions i came up with the idea that it would be the 7th trumpet of revelation since its the last trumpet??? but then the first resurrection is at rev20 so it doesnt match perfectly. or does it? can you help me out if you know about this??
Yes, I believe there is one more coming, technically it would be His third coming of the common era. I believe Jesus actually came in the OT too and was in fact Melchizedek, King of Salem. Salem was the name of ancient Jeru-Salem.
Yes, when He says "heaven and earth will pass away" He starts discussing that event for the rest of Mat 24.
Yes, I believe we are in the millennium now (amillennialism). Christ is reigning right now (Isa 32:1, Jer 23:5, Dan 7:13-14, Lk 1:33, Rm 5:21, 15:12, 1 Cor 4:8, 2 Tim 2:12). The "binding" of Satan was to prevent him from deceiving the nations. There is no mention of no sin or evil in the world during the "1,000" non-literal years.
Yes, when He says "heaven and earth will pass away" He starts discussing that event for the rest of Mat 24.
Yes, I believe we are in the millennium now (amillennialism). Christ is reigning right now (Isa 32:1, Jer 23:5, Dan 7:13-14, Lk 1:33, Rm 5:21, 15:12, 1 Cor 4:8, 2 Tim 2:12). The "binding" of Satan was to prevent him from deceiving the nations. There is no mention of no sin or evil in the world during the "1,000" non-literal years.
Your view goes against several clear statements of Jesus:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
There is only one way to take this and it's clear some will not be dead before Christ returns.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
That generation, the one Jesus was speaking to, will not pass away until ALL OF THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE!!
[SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The Sanhedrin would see Christ return in their lifetimes, not in some future dead/resurrected state.
James taught:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. [SUP]8 [/SUP]You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
How can the coming of the Lord be at hand if it was to be another 2,000 + years?
...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
The writer of Hebrews clearly states that when Christ was on earth teaching, that they would be in the last days (of their nation).
The tyrants in the city in 70 AD used many false prophets to deceive the people into staying in the city. Josephus records these false prophets and cites one in particular that led 6,000 men, women and children to the temple and to their deaths. I believe this was the Man of Sin who claimed to be above God as spoken of by Paul.
A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes...Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. (War 6,5,2-3). Compare the above to Mt 24 and 2 Thes 2.
Where are you getting the idea that only the church will see Him?
The Great Tribulation took place in Jerusalem and Judea from 66-70 AD. Christ tells those "in Judea to flee." He also says, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies."
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
There is only one way to take this and it's clear some will not be dead before Christ returns.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
That generation, the one Jesus was speaking to, will not pass away until ALL OF THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE!!
[SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The Sanhedrin would see Christ return in their lifetimes, not in some future dead/resurrected state.
James taught:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. [SUP]8 [/SUP]You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
How can the coming of the Lord be at hand if it was to be another 2,000 + years?
...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
The writer of Hebrews clearly states that when Christ was on earth teaching, that they would be in the last days (of their nation).
The tyrants in the city in 70 AD used many false prophets to deceive the people into staying in the city. Josephus records these false prophets and cites one in particular that led 6,000 men, women and children to the temple and to their deaths. I believe this was the Man of Sin who claimed to be above God as spoken of by Paul.
A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes...Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. (War 6,5,2-3). Compare the above to Mt 24 and 2 Thes 2.
Where are you getting the idea that only the church will see Him?
The Great Tribulation took place in Jerusalem and Judea from 66-70 AD. Christ tells those "in Judea to flee." He also says, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies."
This already happened.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
The "clouds of heaven" are the armies in heaven. The Romans pierced Him and the Romans had surrounded Jerusalem when Christ returned in 70 AD. The text does not say, "the descendants of those who pierced Him..." it specifically says "they who pierced Him" meaning those same Roman solders.
You don't understand the concept of His parousia or His presence returning. If you look at the Greek, the disciples asked when His "Presence" would return "and the end of (their) age."
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
The "clouds of heaven" are the armies in heaven. The Romans pierced Him and the Romans had surrounded Jerusalem when Christ returned in 70 AD. The text does not say, "the descendants of those who pierced Him..." it specifically says "they who pierced Him" meaning those same Roman solders.
You don't understand the concept of His parousia or His presence returning. If you look at the Greek, the disciples asked when His "Presence" would return "and the end of (their) age."
i respectfully disagree because i think of all the views i have seen the 'pretribrapture' has the least bible basis it has no verses to back it up only 1 thessalonians 4:16 and even that ssays Lord shall descend at the sound of the trumpet so it doesnt look very convincing to me because when does the Lord descend? when He comes back
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No,the first resurrection is NOT in rev 20.
Go back and read it. It is only INCLUDING the martyrs in the first resurrection.
Besides,it would make 1 thes 4 a lie. (the dead in Christ rise FIRST ).
THE RAPTURE of ripe fruit in rev 14 ,is a rapture DURING the GT.
If rev 20 is the first resurrection,the dead rise AFTER the living.
Rev 20 CANNOT BE the first resurrection.
It is an impossibility.
Go back and read it. It is only INCLUDING the martyrs in the first resurrection.
Besides,it would make 1 thes 4 a lie. (the dead in Christ rise FIRST ).
THE RAPTURE of ripe fruit in rev 14 ,is a rapture DURING the GT.
If rev 20 is the first resurrection,the dead rise AFTER the living.
Rev 20 CANNOT BE the first resurrection.
It is an impossibility.