The Rapture

[PlainWord]

Twilight Zone - good show - and the Outer Limits..

I only shifted from "futurist" around 3 years ago - I spent a hard year of intense study using J.D. Pentecost's "Things to come - a study in bible eschatology" which is generally considered the goto book on dispensensationalism...... and comparing it to the preterist view.

Josephus was the big thing that changed me from your basic post trib amillennialist to a preterist. It was like reading the Olivet being fulfilled right before my eyes but with much more flavor and detail.

 

[PlainWord]

Yeah I read it and I'm pretty sure I responded to you. But my response was something like show me where the bible says the destruction of the temple was the last day.

Matthew 5:18

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

When was all fulfilled? How about on the last day? When did "heaven and earth" pass away? Last day, perhaps? Again, earth = Israel.

 

[VCO]

VCO,

I applaud your diligence to your false interpretations. I'll give you a big hug and kiss when I see you in heaven. God bless you!! But you have to learn how to read apocalyptic language my friend.

Locusts frequently are used in the OT to describe a swarming foreign army. But this one was Rome.

The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle.

This is because they were horses, LOL.

and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails.

They sounded like chariots because they were carts carrying the scorpion dart machine which they hauled backwards, making the firing end "in their tails" when towed. See?

The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.

This might not be the exact picture but hopefully you get the idea.

Now this may be totally unfamiliar to you but anyone living back then would know exactly what John saw because they all saw it and knew it all too well.

Titus arrived and began the siege on Apr 10, 70 AD and the temple fell on Aug 30, 70 AD. A period of just under 5 months. Then it took a month to mop up the rest of the city. Capisce?

WRONG, NO TAILS THAT STING, and NO WINGS. AND YOU SAID IT, JOHN KNEW VERY WELL WHAT ROMAN SOLDIERS LOOKED LIKE AND HE WOULD HAVE CALLED THEM ROMAN SOLDIERS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN TOTALLY ABLE TO GIVE AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION. WHAT JOHN SAW WAS HARD FOR HIM TO DESCRIBE, BECAUSE HE HAD NEVER SEEN SUCH A BEING BEFORE.

Having delineated the devastation the locusts (demons) will cause, John gives a more detailed description of their appearance in the vision. They are described as locusts because they bring massive, devastating, rapid judgment from God (cf. Ex. 10:4-5, 12-15; Deut. 28:38; 1 Kings 8:37; 2 Chron. 7:13; Pss. 78:46; 105:34; Joel 2:1ff.; Amos 7:1), but their exaggerated, terrifying features reveal them to be unlike any locust, scorpion, or any other creature ever before seen on earth. John can only give an approximation of what this formidable spiritual army looked like, as the repeated use of the terms like (used ten times in this passage) and appeared to be indicates. To describe the supernatural and unfamiliar demon horde, John chooses natural and familiar analogies.

The general appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. They were warlike, powerful, and defiant, like horses straining at the bit and pawing the ground in their eagerness to charge forward on their mission of death. Joel 2:4-5 describes a locust plague in similar terms. On their heads John saw what appeared to be crowns like gold. The crowns they wore are called [FONT=&quot]stephanoi[/FONT], the victors' crowns, indicating that the demon host will be invincible, unstoppable, and all-conquering. Men will have no weapon that can harm them and no cure for the terrible torment they inflict. That their faces were like the faces of men indicates they are intelligent, rational beings, not actual insects. While Jeremiah 51:27 describes locusts as having bristles like hair, the description of their hair as being like the hair of women more likely emphasizes their seductiveness. The glory or beauty of a woman is her hair, which she may decorate to become more alluring. Like the Sirens of Greek mythology, these locustlike demons will lure people to their doom. Having teeth like the teeth of lions (cf. Joel 1:6), they will be far more fierce, powerful, and deadly than lions, ripping and tearing apart their victims. Breastplates of iron, designed to protect the vital organs and preserve the life of the soldier, here symbolize the demon horde's invulnerability; they will be impossible to resist or destroy. In a further metaphor drawn from the battlefield, John, like the prophet Joel (Joel 2:4-5), compares the sound of their wings to a moving army, noting that it was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle. There will be no escaping their massive, worldwide onslaught; nowhere to run or hide. The threefold comparison of the demons to scorpions (cf. vv. 3, 5) stresses that their sole mission is to hurt men. The nature of this full-scale demonic torment that drives people to seek death and not find it, to pursue death and not catch it, is not described. However, a look at some biblical illustrations of demonic torment offers some good insights. The maniacs of Gadara were so tormented by demons that they were insane, living in tombs (Matt. 8:28). All about Galilee Jesus encountered tormented demoniacs (Matt. 4:23-24). A centurion's servant was tormented with paralysis (Matt. 8:6). A demon-possessed boy kept throwing himself into fires and water in acts of self-destruction (Mark 9:20-22). Such are the spiritual and physical torments demons can inflict. For five months they will do such to a whole world of ungodly sinners. The reiteration that the demons will be permitted to torment people for a limited time stresses God's sovereign power over the duration of their assault. Eventually, He will return them to the abyss with their evil master (20:1-3) and then send them to the lake of fire (20:10).


MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Revelation 1-11.

9:7-11. The description of the locusts compared to horses prepared for battle is awesome: human faces... crowns of gold... women's hair... lions' teeth, ironlike breastplates, and wings that sounded like horse-drawn chariots rushing into battle.

Obviously John was describing what he saw but did not interpret each characteristic. The picture is one of Satan's awesome supernatural power and the demon world especially in relation to unbelievers.
Unlike the previous judgments which apparently were short in time this judgment extended for five months (v. 10; cf. v. 5). This is important as it refutes clearly the notion that all these judgments will occur in a brief span of time immediately before the second coming of Christ.

The demons had a ruler over them whose Hebrew name is Abaddon and whose Greek name is Apollyon. Both words mean "destroyer." Though Satan is sometimes portrayed as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14), here Satan and his demons are seen for what they really are, destroyers of people. This judgment confirms what was already intimated in preceding judgments, that the Great Tribulation, as Christ described it, will be a time of "great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again" (Matt. 24:21).


The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

John's vivid description (vv. 7-10) serves to underscore and heighten the horror of the preceding account of the demonic invasion. We learn, for example, that the scorpionlike authority (v. 3) of the locusts was no abstraction, but that John perceived them with actual tails and stings like scorpions (v. 10), with the power to inflict intense physical pain. Small wonder that in those days people will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them (v. 6).


The awful description ends by introducing the locusts' king, the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is [FONT=&quot]Abaddon[/FONT], and in Greek, [FONT=&quot]Apollyon[/FONT] (v. 11). The Hebrew [FONT=&quot]Abaddon[/FONT] is commonly translated "Destruction," and it is closely associated with "death" or "the grave" (see Job 26:6; 28:22; Ps 88:11; Prov 15:11). But instead of the word normally found in ancient Greek translations of these passages ([FONT=&quot]Apōleia[/FONT], "Destruction"), John uses the personalized Apollyon ("Destroyer"), in keeping with his point that this destructive power is personal—both a king and an angel.

The IVP New Testament Commentary Series - The IVP New Testament Commentary Series – Revelation.

 

[VCO]

Can't you take a joke? What's your deal anyway? I can't tell which side of the fence you are on sometimes.

SO THIS IS ALL A MIND GAME FOR YOU. You are just pushing our buttons to get your kicks in life. How Sad, How Immature.

 

[Locutus]

Josephus was the big thing that changed me from your basic post trib amillennialist to a preterist. It was like reading the Olivet being fulfilled right before my eyes but with much more flavor and detail.

I dug around later into Josephus and the Pussy cats.

Rev 9:10 KJV) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

(Rev 9:18 KJV) By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

(Rev 9:19 KJV) For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(Rev 16:21 KJV) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent:and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

While being symbolic in description these "scorpions" are a good description of the Roman Armies Ballista siege engines

The ballista was an ancient missile weapon that launched a large projectile at a distant target.

The "stings in their tails" is a symbolic representation of the boulders that were launched from the rear of the ballista and flung over the machine and released - much in the same way a scorpion stings from its tail over it's body in a forward fashion.

Josephus in his Wars of the Jews" had this to say:

The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent...


Josephus War, book 5 chapter 6.

Josephus is describing the stones by weight as a talent and so does the apostle John in Rev. 9:10

The "ones belonged to the tenth legion" were called scorpio or scorpions.

The scorpio or scorpion was a type of Roman artillery piece. Also known by the name of the triggerfish, it was described in detail by Vitruvius. In the progressive evolution of catapults, the next major improvement after the scorpio was the cheiroballistra.
Source wiki


It just needs a little "talent" to discern that the book of revelation was fulfilled in the Roman siege of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD.

From Locutuses believe it or not...

 

[Locutus]

SO THIS IS ALL A MIND GAME FOR YOU. You are just pushing our buttons to get your kicks in life. How Sad, How Immature.

Aren't you late for the Third Knights Templer meeting...

 

[Locutus]

Here's some more:

Let's look at some of the events in the revelation and we will see there is a correspondence with what happened in the 1st century AD:

(Rev 9:14 KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

(Rev 9:15 KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation is chocked full of symbol imagery but they do represent an underlying substrata.

We can place this symbolism smack in the 1st century AD and not some future event when we avail ourselves of the history of the war upon Jerusalem from the 1st century historian Josephus.

Around 67 AD Vespasian and Titus his son brought the soldiers from four Roman Legions to Judea from the region of the river Euphrates through Syria to attack Judea.

Josephus in his book the Jewish Wars writes of Titus:

The troops that Titus took with were drawn largely from the the region of the Euphrates.

Tacitus writes that Antiochus of Commagene (a king) whose dominions were located on the Euphrates sent a contingent to the war. Sohemus (another king) whose territories were in the same region sent a force to work with Titus.
These Kings of the east seem to tie in with what John says here:

(Rev 16:12 KJV) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Now this loosening of the four angels would seem to correspond with the symbolic imagery described in Rev 9:14-15 by John and would represent the army of Vespasian and Titus to "to slay the third part of men" and the "drying up of the water" is symbolic imagery of the mobilization of this army with the "kings of the east".

Locutuses believe it or not...

 

[KJV1611]

Here's some more:

Let's look at some of the events in the revelation and we will see there is a correspondence with what happened in the 1st century AD:

(Rev 9:14 KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

(Rev 9:15 KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation is chocked full of symbol imagery but they do represent an underlying substrata.

We can place this symbolism smack in the 1st century AD and not some future event when we avail ourselves of the history of the war upon Jerusalem from the 1st century historian Josephus.

Around 67 AD Vespasian and Titus his son brought the soldiers from four Roman Legions to Judea from the region of the river Euphrates through Syria to attack Judea.

Josephus in his book the Jewish Wars writes of Titus:

The troops that Titus took with were drawn largely from the the region of the Euphrates.

Tacitus writes that Antiochus of Commagene (a king) whose dominions were located on the Euphrates sent a contingent to the war. Sohemus (another king) whose territories were in the same region sent a force to work with Titus.
These Kings of the east seem to tie in with what John says here:

(Rev 16:12 KJV) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Now this loosening of the four angels would seem to correspond with the symbolic imagery described in Rev 9:14-15 by John and would represent the army of Vespasian and Titus to "to slay the third part of men" and the "drying up of the water" is symbolic imagery of the mobilization of this army with the "kings of the east".

Locutuses believe it or not...

I don't believe it because bible symbology doesn't work like that. I can't say a river drying up is symbolic of a mobilizing army because this matches certain historical events unless the bible says so. We can only interpret the symbols as the bible interprets the symbols. The bible is the definer of the meaning of the symbols, not us.

The bible is very literal in what it says... either the literal Euphrates river dried up or it's spiritual counterpart dried up. With your version of interpretation, you can make that verse or any other verse mean absolutely anything you want it to mean.

 

[Locutus]

I don't think it's possible to make it anything we want 16.

This is from J.S. Russell's "The Parousia":

The sixth vial, like the sixth trumpet, takes effect upon the great river Euphrates (ver. 12), the water of which is dried up, that ‘the way of the kings of the east may be prepared.’ We now approach the catastrophe.

In the vision of the sixth trumpet we see an innumerable host mustered for the great battle; in the vision of the sixth vial we see ‘three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet;’ the emissaries of the powers of darkness go forth to muster the armies of the ‘kings of the whole world,’ to gather them to the great war of ‘the great day of God Almighty.’

Translated into historical terms this symbol represents the mobilising of the forces of the Empire and of the kings of the neighbouring nations for the Jewish war. The drying up of the Euphrates seems plainly to signify its being crossed with ease and speed; and this, taken in connection with the corresponding symbol under the sixth trumpet, viz. the loosing of the four angels bound at the Euphrates, points to the drawing of troops from that quarter for the invasion of Judea. This we know to be a historical fact

J.S. Russell's believe it or not...

 

[Locutus]

Remember John is using prophetic/apocalyptic language, Ezekiel used "dried up" symbolically:

Ezek 17:24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.

Adam Clarke:

All the trees of the field shall know - All the people of Israel and of Chaldea.

I the Lord have brought down the high tree - Have dethroned Jehoiachin.

Have exalted the low tree - Put Zedekiah, brother of Jehoiachin, in his place.

Have dried up the green tree - Zedekiah, who had numerous children, but who were all slain before his eyes at Riblah.

 

[Locutus]

There's more:

Hos 13:15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

Adam Clarke:

Verse 15
Though he be fruitful - יפריא yaphri ; a paronomasia on the word אפרים ephrayim, which comes from the same root פרה parah, to be fruitful, to sprout, to bud.

An east wind shall come - As the east wind parches and blasts all vegetation, so shall Shalmaneser blast and destroy the Israelitish state.

Adam Clarke's believe it or not..

 

[Locutus]

16 of 11 still chewing on the posts:

 

[J7]

Can't you take a joke? What's your deal anyway? I can't tell which side of the fence you are on sometimes.

The fence is manmade. I have paraffin and a light.

You are getting on my wick joking about something that I think is very serious.

 

[Snoozy]

There's more:

Hos 13:15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

Adam Clarke:

Verse 15
Though he be fruitful - יפריא yaphri ; a paronomasia on the word אפרים ephrayim, which comes from the same root פרה parah, to be fruitful, to sprout, to bud.

An east wind shall come - As the east wind parches and blasts all vegetation, so shall Shalmaneser blast and destroy the Israelitish state.

Adam Clarke's believe it or not..

u are following a man Adam clarke i dont care about that bozo. i dont even know him

 

[PlainWord]

VCO,

WRONG, NO TAILS THAT STING, and NO WINGS. AND YOU SAID IT, JOHN KNEW VERY WELL WHAT ROMAN SOLDIERS LOOKED LIKE AND HE WOULD HAVE CALLED THEM ROMAN SOLDIERS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN TOTALLY ABLE TO GIVE AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION. WHAT JOHN SAW WAS HARD FOR HIM TO DESCRIBE, BECAUSE HE HAD NEVER SEEN SUCH A BEING BEFORE.

You are a few years older than me so you should remember this although you weren't quite born yet either. Remember the French Underground during WWII? They were a secret organization operating in Nazi occupied France, right? They met in secret basements and back rooms to avoid Nazi scrutiny. They carried out various raids but were mostly regular people, not solders.

They used hidden radios to listen to the BBC. They had code words and phrases that they listened for which would send them into action. Only they knew which code phrases applied to them. To the Nazis, it was just gibberish. This was especially true leading up to Normandy. "Wounds my heart with a monotonous languor," remember that from the movie, THE LONGEST DAY? The Germans listening in heard that phrase and had no clue what it meant while the Underground sprang into action setting explosives on the train tracks and cutting phone lines, right? Why do you suppose they used code words and phrases? Why not just say, "Alright guys, the invasion is tomorrow, June 6, you guys in French Underground 6 in Fougeres, in two hours hit the train track just before the bridge then blow up the power lines between Laval and St. Malo?” Why not just come out and say that? Why use codes?

Same thing here. John was sent to exile to Patmos by Nero, likely soon after Peter and Paul were killed in Rome. Rome was on the war path against Christians everywhere in their empire which extended from Italy, through Greece, Turkey and the Levant. Now John wasn’t afraid to die for Christ as the others had, by why ask for it? Christ wanted him to send words of comfort and instruction to the 7 churches in Turkey who were suffering enormous persecution at the hands of the Romans. So, John used OT figurative language and wrote in apocalyptic literary style so that his audience would understand but not the Romans. To them it would be end times gibberish. Nostradamus wrote in much the same way to avoid the RCC who would accuse him of being a heretic and put him to death. You just don’t criticize those in power in those days.

John's writing style is having exactly the same effect on you as it would have to the Romans if they read Revelation. They would envision all kinds of crazy things and not see them selves as the villain. See how this works? You are absolutely clueless about what Revelation really meant.

The rest of your post is pure spiritualization at a level way beyond anything I could image. The beast (Rome) is Satanic, getting its power from the dragon (Rev 13:2). The beast is operating under the instructions of Satan against Israel (the Woman). It's that simple. Locusts are foreign armies just like they were in Joel 1:4, 2:25, Jer 51:27, etc.

These locusts (Roman solders) had this simple instruction from God who was allowing Satan to do this:

"...but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

You see, God was protecting His 144,000, having sent them to Pella. Everyone left in Jerusalem was fair game.

 

[Ahwatukee]

u are following a man Adam clarke i dont care about that bozo. i dont even know him

These guys in spiritual la, la land.

 

[PlainWord]

SO THIS IS ALL A MIND GAME FOR YOU. You are just pushing our buttons to get your kicks in life. How Sad, How Immature.

We are discussing ancient history here. I know, its very serious business for you because you think nothing has happened yet. But for me, we are talking about events older than Pompeii getting destroyed by Vesuvius. You really need to take a chill pill and relax a little. There are no scorpion locusts on the horizon, trust me.

 

[PlainWord]

I dug around later into Josephus and the Pussy cats.

Rev 9:10 KJV) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

(Rev 9:18 KJV) By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

(Rev 9:19 KJV) For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(Rev 16:21 KJV) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent:and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

While being symbolic in description these "scorpions" are a good description of the Roman Armies Ballista siege engines

The ballista was an ancient missile weapon that launched a large projectile at a distant target.

The "stings in their tails" is a symbolic representation of the boulders that were launched from the rear of the ballista and flung over the machine and released - much in the same way a scorpion stings from its tail over it's body in a forward fashion.

Josephus in his Wars of the Jews" had this to say:

The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent...


Josephus War, book 5 chapter 6.

Josephus is describing the stones by weight as a talent and so does the apostle John in Rev. 9:10

The "ones belonged to the tenth legion" were called scorpio or scorpions.

The scorpio or scorpion was a type of Roman artillery piece. Also known by the name of the triggerfish, it was described in detail by Vitruvius. In the progressive evolution of catapults, the next major improvement after the scorpio was the cheiroballistra.
Source wiki


It just needs a little "talent" to discern that the book of revelation was fulfilled in the Roman siege of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD.

From Locutuses believe it or not...

Exactly correct although I believe the locusts were the Roman forces, the scorpions were the dart throwing machines which I provided pictures of, since they stung. The stones, the weight of a talent, were the "hail stones" mentioned here.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

The stones were almost white in color and visible at night. According to Josephus, they were easily seen and dodged so the Romans started painting them black or used tar on them.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.

According to Josephus, the city was divided into three parts by the three tyrants. You had the upper and lower city and the Temple area which included Fort Antonia and was connected to the city by bridges. All the other cities of the nations (tribes) fell before Titus set siege to Jerusalem which is where most of the Jews living in the surrounding cities fled thinking Jerusalem with her massive walls was impenetrable.

 

[PlainWord]

The fence is manmade. I have paraffin and a light.

You are getting on my wick joking about something that I think is very serious.

We were talking about whether or not offensive things were in the kingdom (Mt 13:41). The context here was the tares (unbelieving Jews) and the wheat (believing Jews) "growing" together. The tares were to be separated out (from the kingdom) while the wheat was to be gathered into the barn (Pella). The tares were gathered into Jerusalem where they were shut inside by the siege, starved and slaughtered by their own people then finished off by the Romans. The bodies of the 1 million or so dead inside were not buried, they were stacked up in houses and lined the streets in piles. They were eventually burned in the fires of Jerusalem after being plucked at by birds. It was a real horror show and I can only imagine the stench having grown up on a chicken farm.

Yes, this was very serious business, God destroying who were formally His people, yet they rejected His Son and were living in such wickedness sin doing things you wouldn't believe. They were likely the most wicked and evil generation EVER and needed to be destroyed. They were far worse than Sodom and Babel or those before the Flood which is why Jesus uses the comparison.

My "joke" wasn't even a joke, I simply said, they were outside the kingdom, which they were both spiritually and literally because the "kingdom" was moved to Pella literally but spiritually it was taken from Israel and given to the church. Anyway, sorry if I hurt your feelings.

 

[PlainWord]

Here's some more:

Let's look at some of the events in the revelation and we will see there is a correspondence with what happened in the 1st century AD:

(Rev 9:14 KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

(Rev 9:15 KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation is chocked full of symbol imagery but they do represent an underlying substrata.

We can place this symbolism smack in the 1st century AD and not some future event when we avail ourselves of the history of the war upon Jerusalem from the 1st century historian Josephus.

Around 67 AD Vespasian and Titus his son brought the soldiers from four Roman Legions to Judea from the region of the river Euphrates through Syria to attack Judea.

Josephus in his book the Jewish Wars writes of Titus:

The troops that Titus took with were drawn largely from the the region of the Euphrates.

Tacitus writes that Antiochus of Commagene (a king) whose dominions were located on the Euphrates sent a contingent to the war. Sohemus (another king) whose territories were in the same region sent a force to work with Titus.
These Kings of the east seem to tie in with what John says here:

(Rev 16:12 KJV) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Now this loosening of the four angels would seem to correspond with the symbolic imagery described in Rev 9:14-15 by John and would represent the army of Vespasian and Titus to "to slay the third part of men" and the "drying up of the water" is symbolic imagery of the mobilization of this army with the "kings of the east".

Locutuses believe it or not...

This is exactly what I believe too. I am 100% convinced of this. You are absolutely correct, they came from the area of the Euphrates.

The only problem I have is the 200 million thing. The actual text says, 2 myriads myriads. A myriad is supposed to be 10,000 so if you multiple 20,000 by 10,000 you get your 200 million. According to multiple historical sources, Titus' force consisted of around 50,000 to 60,000 troops total, the four legions you mentioned along with auxiliary forces from Syria, Arabia, Egypt and other surrounding territories. These additional forces were called, "cohorts." They were widely employed by Rome particularly in the east as they were natural enemies of Israel. I believe Daniel refers to them as "clay" but lets save that for another discussion.

Now a full legion is comprised of 10,000 men. Again, they were made up of Italian and foreign troops (iron and clay mix). So the question is should we multiple two myriads by a myriad as the translators do, or do we double the two myriads? I think we double them giving us 40,000 troops which would be the number of 4 legions and here's why.

Revelation was written in Greek. Like Hebrew, Greek does not employ the use of exclamation marks or capital letters for the author to add emphasis like we use in English. So, to add emphasis, the word to be emphasized is repeated, two or even three times. Example Rev 8:13 when the angel says, "“Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth (Israel)." That means something, really, really, really bad is going to happen. So, perhaps John was saying, "not just 20,000 but 20,000 and 20,000" two myriads myriads. Just a thought and if I'm correct, the futurist may just as well go home and call it another bad day at the office.