The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

The point is the book of Revelation is written in symbolic language and we shouldn't be looking for a literal city to descend out of heaven.

Greetings KVJ,

Yes it is a literal city! And believing that everything in Revelation as being symbolic is the biggest problem in misinterpreting the book of Revelation. It should be read in the literal sense until a symbolic, figurative or metaphoric interpretation is required. If you go into it as everything being symbolic, then the information that is literal is distorted.

That said, the New Jerusalem is a literal, future city. For one thing, in referring to the hero's of faith, Paul mentions the new Jerusalem:

"All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. Those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. - Heb.11:13-16

Those saints of old were looking for and anticipating that new Jerusalem in the eternal state.

Jesus mentions the New Jerusalem:

"I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God." - Rev.3:12

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. - Rev.21:1-2

If the new Jerusalem is symbolic, then the new heaven and new earth would also have to be symbolic, which they are not!

"And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll." - Rev.22:19

In the scripture above, we have a warning for those who takes words away from this book of Revelation. And anyone who does, God will take away from that persons share in the tree of life and the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, which wouldn't make any sense if the city was symbolic.

The dimensions of the city are given, the thickness of the walls, what they are made of, twelve gates each made from a single pearl, with an angel at each gate, and the list goes on.

The issue here is that, if God can provide so much detail regarding the future, heavenly city, of new Jerusalem, how could you know ever know when God was speaking literally? He gives you all of these intricate details about the city and you call it symbolic.

My advice to you is to start believing what you are reading.

 

[PlainWord]

but it tells us how big it is accurately so it dont sound like symbolism............. regardless.

i think itd be weird to go back to animal sacrifices in the millenial kingdom as well, kind of like undo the once and for all sacrifice of Christ, anyone got an answer to this if u believe there will be sacrifices??????????

If my math is correct, it is essentially a big cube with each side being about 1,500 miles long. The earth's atmosphere is about 60 miles above the planet's surface meaning this thing would stick out into space some 1,440 miles. Can anyone imagine a literal structure this tall breaking through the atmosphere and distorting it across 1,500 miles?

The heat that would be generated would be astronomical as this city tears through the atmosphere at 1,000 miles/hour. Now the city is made of pure gold which melts at about 1,850 F. The temperature of re-entry into earth's atmosphere of a space craft is about 3,000 F meaning the whole city would melt unless the jasper walls somehow protect it from the heat.

Then there is the torque which would be created by this massive structure as the atmosphere opposes the forward motion. The stresses this structure would be under is mind boggling. I don't even want to take that problem on. I hate math. Maybe we should reconsider this being a literal heaven city coming down to earth????

 

[Issachar92]

If my math is correct, it is essentially a big cube with each side being about 1,500 miles long. The earth's atmosphere is about 60 miles above the planet's surface meaning this thing would stick out into space some 1,440 miles. Can anyone imagine a literal structure this tall breaking through the atmosphere and distorting it across 1,500 miles?

The heat that would be generated would be astronomical as this city tears through the atmosphere at 1,000 miles/hour. Now the city is made of pure gold which melts at about 1,850 F. The temperature of re-entry into earth's atmosphere of a space craft is about 3,000 F meaning the whole city would melt unless the jasper walls somehow protect it from the heat.

Then there is the torque which would be created by this massive structure as the atmosphere opposes the forward motion. I don't even want to take that problem on. I hate math. Maybe we should reconsider this being a literal heaven city coming down to earth????

What a geek. You think God cares about some fancy scientific laws? He done created them. New Jerusalem WILL come literally, just like it says, ya can take that to the bank.
Revelation is REVELATION, not some hidden gem that nobody can figure out, if thats the case its a useless book. Its written so that we can understand. I bet the devil is happy with the "nobody knows anything, we'll see when we get thurr" attitude. Get a grip people. All the apostles were Jews and surprise surprise jews dont interpret scripture in a mystical fashion (unless one is into kabbala and chabad). The way we interpret scripture is practical, we see what it says and we do it, roll up our sleeves and lets go. Dont let the devil tell you that you cant understand this or that. Thats the devil's greatest trick.

GOD SAYS WHAT HE MEANS AND MEANS WHAT HE SAYS!

 

[KJV1611]

What a geek. You think God cares about some fancy scientific laws? He done created them. New Jerusalem WILL come literally, just like it says, ya can take that to the bank.
Revelation is REVELATION, not some hidden gem that nobody can figure out, if thats the case its a useless book. Its written so that we can understand. I bet the devil is happy with the "nobody knows anything, we'll see when we get thurr" attitude. Get a grip people. All the apostles were Jews and surprise surprise jews dont interpret scripture in a mystical fashion (unless one is into kabbala and chabad). The way we interpret scripture is practical, we see what it says and we do it, roll up our sleeves and lets go. Dont let the devil tell you that you cant understand this or that. Thats the devil's greatest trick.

GOD SAYS WHAT HE MEANS AND MEANS WHAT HE SAYS!

And that's exactly why they rejected Christ and you're doing the exact same thing they did.... taking the spiritual for the literal.

 

[KJV1611]

Greetings KVJ,

Yes it is a literal city! And believing that everything in Revelation as being symbolic is the biggest problem in misinterpreting the book of Revelation. It should be read in the literal sense until a symbolic, figurative or metaphoric interpretation is required. If you go into it as everything being symbolic, then the information that is literal is distorted.

That said, the New Jerusalem is a literal, future city. For one thing, in referring to the hero's of faith, Paul mentions the new Jerusalem:

"All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. Those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. - Heb.11:13-16

Those saints of old were looking for and anticipating that new Jerusalem in the eternal state.

Jesus mentions the New Jerusalem:

"I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God." - Rev.3:12

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. - Rev.21:1-2

If the new Jerusalem is symbolic, then the new heaven and new earth would also have to be symbolic, which they are not!

"And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll." - Rev.22:19

In the scripture above, we have a warning for those who takes words away from this book of Revelation. And anyone who does, God will take away from that persons share in the tree of life and the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, which wouldn't make any sense if the city was symbolic.

The dimensions of the city are given, the thickness of the walls, what they are made of, twelve gates each made from a single pearl, with an angel at each gate, and the list goes on.

The issue here is that, if God can provide so much detail regarding the future, heavenly city, of new Jerusalem, how could you know ever know when God was speaking literally? He gives you all of these intricate details about the city and you call it symbolic.

My advice to you is to start believing what you are reading.

Revelation 1:1 KJV
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[Ahwatukee]

If my math is correct, it is essentially a big cube with each side being about 1,500 miles long. The earth's atmosphere is about 60 miles above the planet's surface meaning this thing would stick out into space some 1,440 miles. Can anyone imagine a literal structure this tall breaking through the atmosphere and distorting it across 1,500 miles?

The heat that would be generated would be astronomical as this city tears through the atmosphere at 1,000 miles/hour. Now the city is made of pure gold which melts at about 1,850 F. The temperature of re-entry into earth's atmosphere of a space craft is about 3,000 F meaning the whole city would melt unless the jasper walls somehow protect it from the heat.

Then there is the torque which would be created by this massive structure as the atmosphere opposes the forward motion. The stresses this structure would be under is mind boggling. I don't even want to take that problem on. I hate math. Maybe we should reconsider this being a literal heaven city coming down to earth????

Excuse me plainWord, New Heaven, New earth, remember? We are not talking about this present heaven and earth. Also, it may be that the new Jerusalem will not reside on the new earth itself, but orbits it. Your using science to attempt to explain away was is eternal and of God.

The fact is that the new Jerusalem is revealed in detail as a future, literal city. So stop using man's reasoning to reject what is written about it and accept it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation 1:1 KJV
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The word "signified" just means to make something known. It doesn't mean that is a symbolic meaning. For example, I am signifying to you by proof of scripture that the new Jerusalem is a literal city.

Believe what is written and stop automatically applying symbolic meanings to everything.

 

[tourist]

Did they have TV in 70 AD? Can you see a spiritual "city?" Remember what Paul said about the new Jerusalem?

Gal 4:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

New Jerusalem is a pretty big city. If it has already descended to earth it would still be there today. It is 1500 miles high, can't miss it.

 

[tourist]

If my math is correct, it is essentially a big cube with each side being about 1,500 miles long. The earth's atmosphere is about 60 miles above the planet's surface meaning this thing would stick out into space some 1,440 miles. Can anyone imagine a literal structure this tall breaking through the atmosphere and distorting it across 1,500 miles?

The heat that would be generated would be astronomical as this city tears through the atmosphere at 1,000 miles/hour. Now the city is made of pure gold which melts at about 1,850 F. The temperature of re-entry into earth's atmosphere of a space craft is about 3,000 F meaning the whole city would melt unless the jasper walls somehow protect it from the heat.

Then there is the torque which would be created by this massive structure as the atmosphere opposes the forward motion. The stresses this structure would be under is mind boggling. I don't even want to take that problem on. I hate math. Maybe we should reconsider this being a literal heaven city coming down to earth????

I'm sure that God has considered all of the engineering challenges and has a solution for them. I agree with you that it sounds bizarre but that those are the dimensional measurements as stated in the bible.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Also, it may be that the new Jerusalem will not reside on the new earth itself, but orbits it.

Amen. This is the correct and biblical understanding of what it means for the New Jerusalem to "descend" from Heaven. It is literally a cube the size of a continent (1,500 cubic miles) and it is also the source of light for the New Earth and its inhabitants (since the sun is no longer there). This "light" is in fact the light of the glory of God and of the Lamb. Therefore the New Jerusalem hovers (and probably orbits) over the earth.

All of this may sound incredible to the natural man or to the humanistic Christian, but one simply has to read what Scripture actually says, not what we imagine it says.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation 1:1 KJV
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Here are other scriptures which use the same word:

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die"

"Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

The word just means to make something known. Stop throwing out the literal context by misinterpreting the meaning of a single word.

 

[KJV1611]

The word "signified" just means to make something known. It doesn't mean that is a symbolic meaning. For example, I am signifying to you by proof of scripture that the new Jerusalem is a literal city.

Believe what is written and stop automatically applying symbolic meanings to everything.

signify (v.)

late 13c., "be a sign of, indicate, mean," from Old French signifier (12c.), from Latin significare "to make signs, show by signs, point out, express; mean, signify; foreshadow, portend

 

[Ahwatukee]

signify (v.)

late 13c., "be a sign of, indicate, mean," from Old French signifier (12c.), from Latin significare "to make signs, show by signs, point out, express; mean, signify; foreshadow, portend

Are your ears forever closed to the truth of God's word?! You take one word and throw out the context and ignore all of the detail that is given and make it symbolic.

It is impossible to teach you! I wonder what it would take for God to get you to understand when he is speaking literally? If He gives something in such detail, what else would he have to do to get you to understand that it is literal?

 

[tanakh]

signify (v.)

late 13c., "be a sign of, indicate, mean," from Old French signifier (12c.), from Latin significare "to make signs, show by signs, point out, express; mean, signify; foreshadow, portend[/QUOTE

Its odd that when Jesus uses symbolic language about himself like ''I am the Door'' No one takes it literally but when it comes to the book of Revelation almost everything is taken literally by some.

 

[Bogadile]

Amen. This is the correct and biblical understanding of what it means for the New Jerusalem to "descend" from Heaven. It is literally a cube the size of a continent (1,500 cubic miles) and it is also the source of light for the New Earth and its inhabitants (since the sun is no longer there). This "light" is in fact the light of the glory of God and of the Lamb. Therefore the New Jerusalem hovers (and probably orbits) over the earth.

All of this may sound incredible to the natural man or to the humanistic Christian, but one simply has to read what Scripture actually says, not what we imagine it says.

If the New Jerusalem hovers above the new earth and is a light to the inhabitants of the new earth. THEN: Who are the inhabitants of it? Since all the saved will be in New Jerusalem, who is left to populate the new earth?

 

[KJV1611]

Are your ears forever closed to the truth of God's word?! You take one word and throw out the context and ignore all of the detail that is given and make it symbolic.

It is impossible to teach you! I wonder what it would take for God to get you to understand when he is speaking literally? If He gives something in such detail, what else would he have to do to get you to understand that it is literal?

The text says the vision was given in symbolic language, that's what I have to believe.

 

[Ahwatukee]

signify (v.)

late 13c., "be a sign of, indicate, mean," from Old French signifier (12c.), from Latin significare "to make signs, show by signs, point out, express; mean, signify; foreshadow, portend

signify (v.)

late 13c., "be a sign of, indicate, mean," from Old French signifier (12c.), from Latin significare "to make signs, show by signs, point out, express; mean, signify; foreshadow, portend[/QUOTE

Its odd that when Jesus uses symbolic language about himself like ''I am the Door'' No one takes it literally but when it comes to the book of Revelation almost everything is taken literally by some.

The word does not only mean symbolism! I have already given two examples of the use of the word in scripture.

What amazes me is that they are taking all of the detail given regarding the city

* 1,500 miles wide, deep and high

* The walls are 200 feet thick

* The city is made of pure transparent gold

* Has twelve foundations each of a different precious gem

* There are twelve gates each made from a singe pearl, three on the east, north, south and west

* There are twelve angels, one at each gate

* The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are written on the gates

* The names of the twelve apostles are written on the twelve foundations of the city

* There is a river of the water of life flowing down the middle of the city

* The tree of life is on both sides of the river bearing crops every month

So, you're going to take the word "signified" which also means to "indicate" or to "make known" and your going to ignore all of those details given in scripture? Talk about straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

You need to learn to be able to discern between what is literal and what is symbolic, because as you are currently, you do not have that ability. I might also add that, this a false teaching that has been going around for some time. So all that has happened, is that you adopted that teaching and are now contending for it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The text says the vision was given in symbolic language, that's what I have to believe.

It would be interesting to go over the book of Revelation with you just to see what you deem as symbolic and what is literal, if to you there is any.

 

[PlainWord]

New Jerusalem is a pretty big city. If it has already descended to earth it would still be there today. It is 1500 miles high, can't miss it.

If it is spiritual, you would miss seeing it.

 

[PlainWord]

I'm sure that God has considered all of the engineering challenges and has a solution for them. I agree with you that it sounds bizarre but that those are the dimensional measurements as stated in the bible.

When the literal seems absurd, look to the spiritual to see if that makes sense, per the rules of hermeneutics. There is another problem with the city being literal:

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there).

A mortal could not walk into this city whose gates are always open because there would be no atmosphere inside this city if it's top is in outer space. Space is a vacuum and would suck any air out of it in a flash.

Notice also that it is the NATIONS that are saved who walk in its light. Since when is salvation based on your national affiliation? However, if spiritual, Christians nations have the light of their Christians shining truth to them all the time. The reference to the gates always being open is an opposite expression of ancient walled cities which shut their gates at night for protection. However, the gate to salvation is always open for all people who believe.

The rules of hermeneutics fit far better as a spiritual interpretation rather than a literal one. When I say literal, I really mean spiritual and not physical, visible to mortals.