The Rapture

DiscipleDave · Sep 17, 2017

Please explain to me, what YOU think the last Trump sounding actually means in 1 Cor 15:52. You say it is not the last Trumpet of the series of Trumpets given in Revelation, then surely you do know what LAST trump 1 Cor 15:52 is referring. Can't wait to hear your interpretation of which last Trumpet sounding that verse is referring to.

Ahwatukee said:

GINORMOUS PROBLEM ALERT!!! Scriptures teaches over and over again that His Wrath is coming upon all those who are disobedient? Are you suggesting no Church member is ever disobedient? Really? The wrath of God is coming upon all those who do evil, Good and bad alike. However even though His wrath will come upon the Church, they will still be SAVED if they do not Fall Away from the Faith, if they do not deny Jesus christ, if they endure to the end, if they endure their Hour of Temptation.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord, we are then NOT appointed to wrath, we are washed, we are clean, we are SAVED, we are white as snow, we are forgiven of our past sins, we are made righteous by His Righteousness, we are washed by His Blood. We are not appointed to wrath UNLESS we choose to live in sin. What? believing in one verse does not negate, or make void other verses. Is one verse of Scriptures more True than another verse? NO.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What "Tribulation of those days" is being discussed here? Read the descriptions of the verses prior to verse 29. All of these Tribulations the Church WILL GO THROUGH. Tribulation as was never seen before nor ever will see again, it says, which the CHURCH will go through, Because ONLY AFTER the tribulation of those days will Christ Rapture the Church, if we are to believe Scriptures. Do you believe Scriptures?

The teaching that Christians will not suffer is a false doctrine from satan. True when we accepted Jesus Christ we were NOT appointed to His Wrath. But when we chose to deny Jesus voice and obey satans voice, his temptations and continue to live in sin, we have appointed ourselves to death. Know you not that the wages of sin is DEATH and not LIFE? Here are some verses which plainly teach we, The Church, Christians, the Saved, will suffer, and they are NOT excluded from it.

Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon EVERY soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Notice it does not say {except if your Saved}

Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This verse plainly teaches if ANYONE obeys their flesh and commits sin, shall reap corruption. What is this verse made void because of the verse that says we are not appointed to wrath? God forbid. Anyone, and i don't care who you are, if you sow to the flesh, you will reap corruption in that flesh, EXACTLY as the Word of God says you will. When? When will we suffer corruption because we have sown to the flesh? It could happen immediately, it could happen next year, it could happen 10 years from now, it could, and most likely will happen during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. If you choose to continue to live in sin, all you are doing is storing up wrath for your own self.

Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. (What? We are to suffer tribulation, This Apostle must not have known about the verse that says "we are not appointed for wrath" God forbid. This verse teaches we will suffer tribulations.)

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (yet another verse that teaches we will go through Tribulations)

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (Have you suffered in the flesh, or do you still sow to the flesh, feed the flesh, obey the flesh, and not suffer at all, because you continue to sin in the flesh)

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Scriptures can't be broken. You can't believe one verse and ignore others. It is only when you believe All verses that you can come close to the TRUTH.

Col_3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Again, you reap what you sow. Anyone who continues to willingly commit sins, that is to say, willingly do wrong, shall receive for the wrong which they continue to do on a daily basis. When? When do they recieve for the wrong that they do? It will be during the 3 1/2 years when the planet is being remade into something New. But if they repent and turn away from their sinning, they will endure to the end, until Christ Raptures them, but they must endure to the end to be SAVED, if, because of their tribulations, their suffering in the flesh, because of their being punished for the wrongs which they have done in their life, they turn away from God, they do not repent, their names will be blotted out of the Book of Life, these will have Fallen Away from the Faith, and there will be a great Falling Away when the Tribulation Period Starts, and Christ did not come (pre-trib) and they are suffering like Job did, and suffering because of their own sinning, they are reaping what they have sown in their life. So even though a True Christian is not appointed for Wrath, if that same person lives in sins, they willingly choose to suffer tribulations and anguish, they choose to endure the wrath of God.

Psa 125:3 For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; (For they are not appointed to wrath) lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity. (They choose to obey His enemy and continually live in sins)

Ahwatukee said:

True Christians will not suffer God's coming wrath. Jesus will keep True Christians "out of" the time of wrath. These things are true, but does not apply to anyone who continues to do evil, who continues to obey satan, who continues to sow to their flesh. God's Wrath is coming upon all those who are disobedient, Those who disobey. When you are tempted to commit a sin, which you know is sinful, Jesus is saying "Don't do it, it is sinful" If you choose to obey satan and do that sin, you have indeed disobeyed God, the very one who you say "Lord" to. Your master is to whom you obey, if you obey satan, he is your master, and it does not matter how loud you claim with your lips "Jesus is my Master"

Ahwatukee said:

This is your opinion, not what Scriptures teach.

Ahwatukee said:

See my other post which shows the scriptures that teaches He does.

Ahwatukee said:

Pizza is not mentioned at all in the entire Bible, pizza must not exist. Just because there is no mention in this chapter or that chapter, does not make it TRUTH.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

DiscipleDave · Sep 17, 2017

Issachar92 said:

Zechariah , a Prophet of the Old Testament, before Jesus walked in the flesh on Earth, mentions Jesus Christ blowing a trumpet in the FUTURE. So then it would have been well known to those in Jesus day of that verse where the Lord blows the Trumpet.

Zec_9:14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Issachar92 said:

i will read what you think it is all about, but it will not change my mind to believe something other than what God has told me.

Issachar92 said:

Sorry, you are in error.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (When is this MYSTERY Finished? At the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelations.

Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

You say the last TRUMP of I Cor is the Resurrection. Yet there is not one verse that says there was a Trumpet sounding during that time? And if I Cor says it is the LAST Trump sounding, that would indicate there is a series of Trumpet sounding, so as there to be a LAST ONE SOUNDING. Again, no mention of this at the Resurrection. Tell me at the Resurrection who was made immortal? It plainly says that at the last Trump sounding the mortal will put on immortality. Who is immortal today? Who then, according to you, has put on immortality TODAY? What? Nobody today is immortal. So then why does Scriptures teach at the last trump they will put on immortality? If it was accomplished at His Resurrection, then there would be people today that are immortal, and no longer corruption. You do error in believing that nonsense. At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there was no Trump Sounding. There were NO series of Trumpets being blown, NOBODY was made incorruptible, nobody was made immortal, NOBODY in a twinkling of eye was CHANGED instantly. Matters of fact right after the Resurrection all His followers fled in fear, and hid themselves like cowards, and were NOT Changed.
Believe Scriptures, don't believe the lies of satan who teaches you things contrary to the very Scriptures you say you believe.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Ahwatukee · Sep 17, 2017

There are many different types of trumpets, which represent different events. To simply take the 7th trumpet and that because of the word "trumpet" and make it the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 is to ignore the context of Rev.12 which is Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. You and others ignore the fact that there is nothing whatsoever mentioned about the church being gathered in the context of Rev.12, but for the sake of the word "trumpet" you place the event as taking place there.

You also ignore the fact that the sounding of the 7th trumpet is well into God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer and which Jesus rescues us from and keep us out of.

You also ignore the fact that the church is never mentioned again after the end of chapter 3. The word changes abruptly from "Ekkesia/church" to "Hagios/Saints."

The "last Trumpet" is obviously a type of trumpet and the last of its sounding. Obviously it is the sounding of a type of trumpet for gathering, since that is exactly what happens when it is sounded. But to just attach it to the 7th trumpet because of the word trumpet, is in great error.

By interpreting the last trumpet as being synonymous with the 7th trumpet judgment, you have to trample on all of those other scriptural truths previously mentioned.

Allenbee · Sep 18, 2017

"You and others ignore the fact that there is nothing whatsoever mentioned about the church being gathered in the context of Rev.12".

Rev 12; v6 and v14.

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days".

(We agree not a rapture for sure, BUT protection from God for those on earth, as HIS WRATH starts when satan is cast down).

"and to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.

Ok Ahwatukee, or any of you misled pretrib believers;

Please... do tell who this woman is ???
OBVIOUSLY it cannot be your "church", as you been rapture'd long ago...right !!!

"Oh it's the Jews".... "Oh it's the Messianic Jews"... "Oh who cares... we in heaven" !!!

WHO is the woman... please ?

Go for it...i'm going to nail you .

BECAUSE... I care for you my misled brothers.

Bogadile · Sep 18, 2017

Allenbee allow me to take a hit at Revelation chapter 12.

I believe it is CLEARLY speaking about the birth of Jesus.
Nothing about the rapture here, nor there.

Ahwatukee · Sep 18, 2017

Hello Allenbee,

First of all, you are misled into thinking that I am misled. I don't and never have been taught by men. I do all my own studies right here in my room, i.e. no man has taught me. What I teach, contend for, correct, rebuke and commend on, comes from my own studies. I don't trust in the teachings of men. I read the word of God to obtain the truth, plain and simple.

Now that said, I have revealed who the woman is many times, but I'll do it here again:

The woman is said to be clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. So, in order to find out who the woman is, we need to find the literal meaning behind the symbols of the sun, moon and stars and God has provided that very answer:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven starswere bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the above scripture, God has provide the meaning of the Sun, moon and stars:

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Twelve Stars = The twelve tribes of Israel

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is symbolically representing the nation Israel and that because Jacob, his wives and his sons represent the sun, moon and stars.

The woman of Revelation 12 is the unbelieving nation of Israel and she gives birth to a "Male Child" which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of the twelve tribes of Israel (gives birth to) who, at that time, will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

Once the dragon/Satan and his angels have been cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth, the woman/Israel will flee out into the wilderness to a place that God will have prepared for her where Israel will be cared for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

Now regarding there nothing being mentioned about the church, there is a reason for that.

Throughout chapters 1 thru 3 the word "Ekklesia" translate "Church" is used 18 times. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints."

Like wise, from chapter 4 onward, you will only see the word Hagios/Saints used, but you will never see the word Ekklesia/church. This is a clue within scripture. If the words church and saints were used interchangeably throughout Revelation, then it wouldn't be an issue. It is because of the use of the word church throughout the first three chapters and then its abrupt disuse that should alert the reader that the church is no longer in the picture in the picture after the end of chapter 3.

In fact Rev.4:1 is prophetic of the church being caught up where John hears that "voice that sounds like a trumpet" saying "come up here!" I believe that this voice like a trumpet is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul is describing the living church being gathered.

I hope that this is beneficial to you.

heartofdavid · Sep 19, 2017

DiscipleDave said:

The Rapture happens at the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Mystery of God is finished, this happens at the 7th Trumpet.
The Prophets were told by God about the 7th Trumpet, the Rapture, the Return of Jesus Christ.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When do the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of Jesus Christ? When? At the 7th Trumpet.
When does Jesus Christ start to REIGN? At the 7th Trumpet.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

WHEN is the time of the dead Judged? At the 7th Trumpet. The time of the dead are Judged, Judgment Day. Those who are dead in Christ, will at this time rise to meet Jesus and reign with Him forever. Those who are dead will be judged and remain left behind, remain dead until the end of the 1,000 year Reign of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment.

WHEN are the SAINTS given rewards? At the 7th Trumpet.
WHEN are the Prophets given their rewards? At the 7th Trumpet.
WHEN is Jesus going to DESTROY those who destroy the Earth? At the beginning of the 7th Trumpet.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When do the dead in Christ raise incorruptible? When are the Saints Changed in a twinkling of an eye? When? The last Trumpet sounding. WOW, clear as can be when the Rapture will happen, but this generation believes lies from satan and do not believe this verse is referring to 7th Trumpet of Revelations. And when i ask these same people then to which last trumpet sounding is this verse talking about, they have NOTHING to answer back. Let them be they are deceived and devoid of the TRUTH.

Now tell me, WHEN is the Temple in Heaven opened? At the 7th Trumpet.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Now what happens when the Temple of God is opened in Heaven at the 7th TRUMPET?

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

When according to Scriptures is the Temple opened? the 7th Trumpet.
Who comes out of that Temple when it is Opened? The 7 Angels with the 7 last plagues.

Anyone who believes contrary to what is written above, believes contrary to what Scriptures teaches.
Anyone who does not believe what is written above, does not believe God who told me these things will happen.

7 seals / 7 trumpets / RAPTURE / 7 vials.

Pre-trib is a lie.
Post-trib is a lie.
ONLY Mid-trib lines up with ALL Scriptures.

Pre-trib does not line up with Scriptures
Post-trib does not line up with Scriptures.

All those who are diehard fans of pretrib, will most likely be those who will fall away, when they see the Earth being destroyed by God and Jesus had not Come yet. For 3 1/2 years the Planet will suffer great distress as was never seen before, and the Church will go through 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, this is called the Hour of Temptation, and i tell you the TRUTH, Many and i say Many will fall away from the Faith because Jesus did not come BEFORE all the Tribulation began as they have falsely believed their whole entire lives.
But here is Good News, God sent me to this generation to tell you the Truth, so that you are not ignorant of it. i have done what God has instructed me to do, i have told you what He has told me concerning this matter, if you choose to remain ignorant and believe the false doctrines, believe what men tell you is the truth, then my hands our clean, i have told you the Truth and you rejected it. Again, my hands are clean.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

could you possibly come down off your throne and answer this?.

Why ,if you have such a direct line into heaven,did he not clue you into the bride/groom component?
FYI,that is a game changer,and the proper emphasis or prism to view ALL END TIMES DOCTRINE.

Seventh trump is well into the wrath of God.

So,there is no sentht trump rapture.

Rapture is pretrib,pre judgement,pre Jacobs trouble.

You are out in left field. Jesus himself used prejudgement examples with lot,Noah,the parable of the 10 virgins,the wedding feast parable etc.

so no,mid trib is debunked right away.

heartofdavid · Sep 19, 2017

DiscipleDave said:

Zechariah , a Prophet of the Old Testament, before Jesus walked in the flesh on Earth, mentions Jesus Christ blowing a trumpet in the FUTURE. So then it would have been well known to those in Jesus day of that verse where the Lord blows the Trumpet.

Zec_9:14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

i will read what you think it is all about, but it will not change my mind to believe something other than what God has told me.

Sorry, you are in error.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (When is this MYSTERY Finished? At the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelations.

Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

You say the last TRUMP of I Cor is the Resurrection. Yet there is not one verse that says there was a Trumpet sounding during that time? And if I Cor says it is the LAST Trump sounding, that would indicate there is a series of Trumpet sounding, so as there to be a LAST ONE SOUNDING. Again, no mention of this at the Resurrection. Tell me at the Resurrection who was made immortal? It plainly says that at the last Trump sounding the mortal will put on immortality. Who is immortal today? Who then, according to you, has put on immortality TODAY? What? Nobody today is immortal. So then why does Scriptures teach at the last trump they will put on immortality? If it was accomplished at His Resurrection, then there would be people today that are immortal, and no longer corruption. You do error in believing that nonsense. At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there was no Trump Sounding. There were NO series of Trumpets being blown, NOBODY was made incorruptible, nobody was made immortal, NOBODY in a twinkling of eye was CHANGED instantly. Matters of fact right after the Resurrection all His followers fled in fear, and hid themselves like cowards, and were NOT Changed.
Believe Scriptures, don't believe the lies of satan who teaches you things contrary to the very Scriptures you say you believe.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Your problem is your STARTING PLACE.

You say,arbitrarily,that seventh trump is the same as last trump,since 7th would also be last.

You say "mystery" here is the same "mystery " everywhere in the bible.

OK,that means,under your methodology,that seventh angel is always seventh angel.One and the same the right?

No,it could also be more than one set of angels,with different assignments.

See how that works?

heartofdavid · Sep 19, 2017

The scripures say "if the trumpet sound is not distinct,they will not know the order to follow" or something similar.

Consider this;
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation 4:1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Therein is the problem.

Trumpet based theology is easily turned into some rabbit trail.

Systematic theology seeks agreement with the WHOLE WORD OF GOD[/FONT]

Bogadile · Sep 19, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

One individual is 144 000. Whatever happened to that literal interpretation thing?

How is revelation 12 clearly not talking about Jesus is beyond me, it is crystal clear to anyone reading it. The accuser is already cast down, are you saying satan is still in heaven in front of God accusing us? What is Jesus waiting for?

What in the world.

Ahwatukee · Sep 19, 2017

Bogadile said:

Morning Bogadile,

Why is this so surprising to you? When Jesus stepped off the boat in Gardara there met him a demon possessed man. And when Jesus asked him his name he said "my name is Legion, for we are many." So, the demons were identified by the collective name of "Legion." In the same way, the "Male Child" is a collective name representing the 144,000 who come out of Israel (gives birth to).

Jesus does not fit the criteria of being the male child, therefore you must look for another answer as to who the male child is.

In Rev.14 regarding the 144,000 it states that "these are those who did not defile themselves with women," which means that the 144,000 are all males, ergo, male child.

Rev.12 are results of the 7th trumpet being sounded. Therefore, the male child is not about the birth of Christ as a flashback, but about the revealing of the woman, who symbolically represents unbelieving Israel with the male child that she gives birth to as representing the 144,000 who come out of Israel and who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

The dragon, which is identified as Satan who goes after the woman.

The woman flees out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years before Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

It is a matter of discerning between what is literal and what is symbolic.

No, he has not been cast out for good. He appeared before God's throne in Job twice. And Revelation 12:10 says that he accuses believers day and night before God. Satan and his angels still have access to heaven, but in the middle of the seven years, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, Satan and his angels will be cast out for good and restricted to the earth during that last 3 1/2 years, which by the way is the 3rd woe.

How can Satan and his angels have already been cast out, when the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period is made reference to when he pursues the woman?

Bogadile · Sep 19, 2017

HOW Does not Jesus fit the criteria in Rev 12:5? He is the only one that fits. Even if we were to wildly assume that one person is 144 000, we still have the problem of them being caught up to God's throne and ruling over the nations with a rod of iron. That will be Jesus Christ, not no 144 000

The problem only goes from bad to worse, when Jesus has done His glorious work, and satan is still hanging around in heaven, accusing the brethren..... Where there is nothing to accuse of, since Christ has already finished the work.

The trumpets and vial judgments are very similar if compared, almost identical. 1 trumpet 1 vial 2 trumpet 2 vial. And so on, very similar.

heartofdavid · Sep 19, 2017

DiscipleDave said:

Please explain to me, what YOU think the last Trump sounding actually means in 1 Cor 15:52. You say it is not the last Trumpet of the series of Trumpets given in Revelation, then surely you do know what LAST trump 1 Cor 15:52 is referring. Can't wait to hear your interpretation of which last Trumpet sounding that verse is referring to.

GINORMOUS PROBLEM ALERT!!! Scriptures teaches over and over again that His Wrath is coming upon all those who are disobedient? Are you suggesting no Church member is ever disobedient? Really? The wrath of God is coming upon all those who do evil, Good and bad alike. However even though His wrath will come upon the Church, they will still be SAVED if they do not Fall Away from the Faith, if they do not deny Jesus christ, if they endure to the end, if they endure their Hour of Temptation.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord, we are then NOT appointed to wrath, we are washed, we are clean, we are SAVED, we are white as snow, we are forgiven of our past sins, we are made righteous by His Righteousness, we are washed by His Blood. We are not appointed to wrath UNLESS we choose to live in sin. What? believing in one verse does not negate, or make void other verses. Is one verse of Scriptures more True than another verse? NO.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What "Tribulation of those days" is being discussed here? Read the descriptions of the verses prior to verse 29. All of these Tribulations the Church WILL GO THROUGH. Tribulation as was never seen before nor ever will see again, it says, which the CHURCH will go through, Because ONLY AFTER the tribulation of those days will Christ Rapture the Church, if we are to believe Scriptures. Do you believe Scriptures?

The teaching that Christians will not suffer is a false doctrine from satan. True when we accepted Jesus Christ we were NOT appointed to His Wrath. But when we chose to deny Jesus voice and obey satans voice, his temptations and continue to live in sin, we have appointed ourselves to death. Know you not that the wages of sin is DEATH and not LIFE? Here are some verses which plainly teach we, The Church, Christians, the Saved, will suffer, and they are NOT excluded from it.

Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon EVERY soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Notice it does not say {except if your Saved}

Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This verse plainly teaches if ANYONE obeys their flesh and commits sin, shall reap corruption. What is this verse made void because of the verse that says we are not appointed to wrath? God forbid. Anyone, and i don't care who you are, if you sow to the flesh, you will reap corruption in that flesh, EXACTLY as the Word of God says you will. When? When will we suffer corruption because we have sown to the flesh? It could happen immediately, it could happen next year, it could happen 10 years from now, it could, and most likely will happen during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. If you choose to continue to live in sin, all you are doing is storing up wrath for your own self.

Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. (What? We are to suffer tribulation, This Apostle must not have known about the verse that says "we are not appointed for wrath" God forbid. This verse teaches we will suffer tribulations.)

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (yet another verse that teaches we will go through Tribulations)

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (Have you suffered in the flesh, or do you still sow to the flesh, feed the flesh, obey the flesh, and not suffer at all, because you continue to sin in the flesh)

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Scriptures can't be broken. You can't believe one verse and ignore others. It is only when you believe All verses that you can come close to the TRUTH.

Col_3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Again, you reap what you sow. Anyone who continues to willingly commit sins, that is to say, willingly do wrong, shall receive for the wrong which they continue to do on a daily basis. When? When do they recieve for the wrong that they do? It will be during the 3 1/2 years when the planet is being remade into something New. But if they repent and turn away from their sinning, they will endure to the end, until Christ Raptures them, but they must endure to the end to be SAVED, if, because of their tribulations, their suffering in the flesh, because of their being punished for the wrongs which they have done in their life, they turn away from God, they do not repent, their names will be blotted out of the Book of Life, these will have Fallen Away from the Faith, and there will be a great Falling Away when the Tribulation Period Starts, and Christ did not come (pre-trib) and they are suffering like Job did, and suffering because of their own sinning, they are reaping what they have sown in their life. So even though a True Christian is not appointed for Wrath, if that same person lives in sins, they willingly choose to suffer tribulations and anguish, they choose to endure the wrath of God.

Psa 125:3 For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; (For they are not appointed to wrath) lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity. (They choose to obey His enemy and continually live in sins)

True Christians will not suffer God's coming wrath. Jesus will keep True Christians "out of" the time of wrath. These things are true, but does not apply to anyone who continues to do evil, who continues to obey satan, who continues to sow to their flesh. God's Wrath is coming upon all those who are disobedient, Those who disobey. When you are tempted to commit a sin, which you know is sinful, Jesus is saying "Don't do it, it is sinful" If you choose to obey satan and do that sin, you have indeed disobeyed God, the very one who you say "Lord" to. Your master is to whom you obey, if you obey satan, he is your master, and it does not matter how loud you claim with your lips "Jesus is my Master"

This is your opinion, not what Scriptures teach.

See my other post which shows the scriptures that teaches He does.

Pizza is not mentioned at all in the entire Bible, pizza must not exist. Just because there is no mention in this chapter or that chapter, does not make it TRUTH.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Bogadile said:

The male child is Jesus.

Bogadile · Sep 19, 2017

heartofdavid said:

THANK YOU! Nice to see someone sees this. It is clear. God bless you.

heartofdavid · Sep 19, 2017

Bogadile said:

I also believe "Satan and his angels cast down" is referring to heaven before the fall.
The stalking of the male child is ancient as well as future.

One dynamic of end times is is the beginning( Genesis )

God,serpent,man.....the beginning

God,serpent,man.......the ending

Allenbee · Sep 19, 2017

Well... it's so good to see several of us agree. The birth of the male child is symbolic of our Lord's return. This woman screaming in birth pangs are HIS true flock on earth today wanting HIS return desperately...THE "WOMAN" !

This is made clear at Math 24;

Signs of the End of the Age
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you (believers, the "woman") are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8[/SUP]All these are but the beginning of.... birth pangs.

AND HERE many BELIEVERS ARE ;
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then many will fall away[SUP][a][/SUP] and betray one another and hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But the one who endures to the end will be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Ohhhhh dear!!!! looks bad doesn't it... IF you are there !!! . (IF... we don't flee from this first 3 1/2 years).
SO ... here comes the salvation from our lord YESHUA... the lion from the tribe of JUDAH.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),[SUP]16 [/SUP]then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. BUT...on account of the chosen ones (the woman who fled)... those days will be cut short.

YES...that does apply to those in Judea today...BUT the only ones who will flee are believers in our Lord as it was at 66-70 AD.

Where else are believers in our Lord today ? Worldwide of course. So... Messianic Jews flee their country Israel, and we flee to our country's wilderness. BECAUSE the "woman" is worldwide as is the great tribulation... worldwide...AND our Lord is to rule the WHOLE EARTH...so that includes HIS protection over us worldwide....as we OBEY our Lord's salvation for Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentiles. (True Christians, knowing we are grafted in to the root).

Thank you my Lord Jesus. ( A JEW...from the tribe of JUDAH...and we are HIS followers. Get it ??? WE... are part of JUDAH !!!

NOTE; there is NO "too soon" to flee Satan's Babylon (get OUT of her my people Rev 18;4), to live GOD'S WAY, and Math 24; v15-20 shows the absolute latest time to flee. The "abomination causing desolation" is when Satan is cast out of heaven and on earth with his demons as MAN.

Enough for now but not finished, as Math 24 and Rev 12 come together perfectly.

heartofdavid · Sep 19, 2017

I have to assume that all the attention given to the woman not being the Jews is to promote an idea that the church is right there in Jacobs trouble.

Sigh,Jacobs trouble is ordained to bring in the covenant Jews through the messiah.

Jacobs trouble BEGINS as the gentile bride is removed

Allenbee · Sep 20, 2017

I have to assume that all the attention given to the woman not being the Jews is to promote an idea that the church is right there in Jacobs trouble. (Messianic Jews and Christians in Israel will flee just as it was at 66-70 AD).

Sigh,Jacobs trouble is ordained to bring in the covenant Jews through the messiah.( TRUE...Messianic Jews).

Jacobs trouble BEGINS as the gentile bride is removed. (Is this the Math 24 unwritten pretrib rapture ???)
Yes that would be nice my friend, but would you say v9 is referring to Jews in Israel only;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. NO PRETRIB RAPTURE for this worldwide event...BUT... we can flee.

Are you saying this evil killing of followers of JESUS is not worldwide ??? As the gospel of the kingdom is preached worldwide !

I conclude...everything starts with Israel, and our Lord returns to Israel to rule the whole earth from there.

This is one of HUNDREDS of end time prophesies showing the "woman" who fled to the wilderness.

Joel 2 all; h, "Before US a garden of Eden (GOD'S WILL)...behind US a desolate waste (Babylon destroyed).

So here we see who our Lord will rule over worldwide for the 1000 years....WHAT pretrib rapture ????

Please my friends... if you insist on a pretrib rapture you will find yourselves here;
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

So...I will just continue to TRY to show you the EXODUS for TODAY.

heartofdavid · Sep 20, 2017

Allenbee said:

I have to assume that all the attention given to the woman not being the Jews is to promote an idea that the church is right there in Jacobs trouble. (Messianic Jews and Christians in Israel will flee just as it was at 66-70 AD).

Sigh,Jacobs trouble is ordained to bring in the covenant Jews through the messiah.( TRUE...Messianic Jews).

Jacobs trouble BEGINS as the gentile bride is removed. (Is this the Math 24 unwritten pretrib rapture ???)
Yes that would be nice my friend, but would you say v9 is referring to Jews in Israel only;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. NO PRETRIB RAPTURE for this worldwide event...BUT... we can flee.

Are you saying this evil killing of followers of JESUS is not worldwide ??? As the gospel of the kingdom is preached worldwide !

I conclude...everything starts with Israel, and our Lord returns to Israel to rule the whole earth from there.

This is one of HUNDREDS of end time prophesies showing the "woman" who fled to the wilderness.

Joel 2 all; h, "Before US a garden of Eden (GOD'S WILL)...behind US a desolate waste (Babylon destroyed).

So here we see who our Lord will rule over worldwide for the 1000 years....WHAT pretrib rapture ????

Please my friends... if you insist on a pretrib rapture you will find yourselves here;
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

So...I will just continue to TRY to show you the EXODUS for TODAY.

lots of martyrs past,present future.

Martyrs do not void 1thes 4,mat 25,or the escape verses.

Show me where Lot stayed and faced persecution.

Keep in mind he was Jesus picture of the end.

Allenbee · Sep 20, 2017

Rev 12;
“A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head”.

First…. we identify the woman;
To me… this “woman” is depicting the righteous of the earth , who have sun for day and moon at night. These righteous are son’s of GOD since mother Eve. The “woman” at Geneses 3;15 who crushes Satan’s head… at end times.

V 10; “For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, (the woman)
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb (Christian’s)
and by the word of their testimony; (good news of the KINGDOM . Math 24;14).
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death”. (These ones martyred are raptured as firstfruits . Math 24;31

So… right now today, and tomorrow… satan is accusing man of loving his way ; “eating and drinking and marrying” , as the rich get richer and the poor poorer, whereas GOD’S WILL is for man to SHARE the earth.

So that is exactly why I believe we are to EXODUS from Satan’s evil Babylon, to prove Satan a liar. To “flee to the mountains” BEFORE the tribulation at Math 24; 6-14 to live GOD’S WAY keeping all his laws and statutes.”The voice in the wilderness” in the spirit of Elijah, BEFORE and DURING the great tribulation. BEFORE our Lord returns… which is; ”immediately after the tribulation of those days”. Math 24;29

Some raptured and some on earth…the woman.

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The birth is CAUSED by the woman who OBEYED our Lord to flee… to live GOD’S WAY, thereby proving satan a LIAR.
BUT… still they preach the good news of the Kingdom, to help those still in satans Babylon to GET OUT… UNTIL Satan is cast out of heaven… PERMANENTLY :

NOW Satan is on earth as a man with all his demons !!! THIS… is the man of lawlessness, "the disgusting thing causing desolation", and will stand in the the holy place, claiming to be GOD and can bring fire down from heaven, to mislead even the chosen ones.

BUT;
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. (Christians and Messianic Jews).

“EXODUS… movement of JAH people” …. Bob Marley

(haha...sorry bout that, but a good song).

SO… “to flee to the mountains” to live GOD’s WAY,is before the first 3 ½ years of the great tribulation at Math 24;6-14, but preaching the good news of the Kingdom to call as many as possible out of Babylons destruction.

UNTIL... we see the SIGN of our lord’s presence, at Math 24;30. (the great crowd at Rev 7;9-17, h; "In sight of the throne and the lamb"). NO MORE are we part of satans nations "eating and drinking" who mourne at the sign.

THEN... we “fly to the wilderness” permanently, AWAY … from the face of the Serpent, and the justified WRATH of GOD… LEAD by our Lord and King…JESUS, for the final 3 ½ years.

GOD’S WILL for the earth , mankind, and all HIS creation at GENESES is realized at Rev 21; 3-4; “The tent of GOD will be with mankind”.

...................................................................................

Oh cheer up you rapture freaks…you get wings with everlasting life

, as the earth now becomes part of GOD’s ever expanding universe. YES we will be able to “materialize” and “dematerialize” as our Lord showed us.
Forget your selfish beliefs and rather DO… GOD’S WILL… for earth and mankind.

Makes sense to me...TO BE WITH THE LORD !!!

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