The Rapture

garee · Sep 2, 2017

Not a salvation issue. I would think it would be more of how can we hear God aright in order to divide his word and therefore seek His approval. I was saved in a denomination similar to yours under the hearing of faith (Christ) .

I would think you are adding to the point. He did not say I will begin to build the bride of Christ, the church And all the Old testament saints died in vain, as faithless Their hearts not purified by the faith of Christ, our Husband. .

I will continue to build the kind church made up of many lively stones that makes up the spiritual house of God called the bride of wife of Christ our husband.

Using tribes as gates to enter into a temple (fellowship of Christ in God) not made with human hands to represent all the old Testament saints as His bride and foundation walls of a fortress of God to keep us safe within to represent the saints on this side of the cross, as the same one and only bride.

Christ who is no respecter of persons (the clay He forms Christ in) puts no difference between a gentile and an outward unconverted Jew(same difference) according to the flesh . Purifying the hearts of both by a work of Faith. The kind of faith that comes from hearing God through the scriptures, the living abiding word of God.

Purifying by grace (favor) the heart of Abel, by a work of His faith just as he did to Ruth a Moabite a gentile.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:8

If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to our bloody husband Christ.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:10 (the first resurrection)

It as that description which come down from heaven prepared as His bride the church that the gates of hell will not be able to resist the gospel(key) of Christ .. Same key spoken of in Revelation 20:1)

Christ appeared as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. He looked on Abel with grace/favor but not Cain the marked man (666)

Revelation 21 speaks of one gospel one bride made up of Old Testament saints as well as new.

The last day(singualar) = the end of the last days(many) or last time period .It began when the veil was rent, the time of reformation.

Job spoke of that day (24 hour time period). Six times in the book of John God emphasizes day, not days ..

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:25

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

If it was last days (many) there would be no reason for Lazarus to rise again.. they were in the last days or last time.

Allenbee · Sep 2, 2017

Hello VCO

About this;
"You got to hate that FIVE MINUTE EDIT RULE".

THAT 5 MIN EDIT… MADNESS - is causing me to sin because we not supposed to swear.

So...I will donate when that is changed.
I mean, as I get older it takes me more than 5 min to even remember what I WANTED to edit.

Problem here though;
The years will be shortened to SEVEN YEARS, because of the mortals chosen to repopulate ISRAEL, which will be destroyed in that War, are those chosen mortals who are the 144,000 Jews sealed in there Mortal Bodies. The Two Witnesses and the 144,000 during the Great Tribulation, lead a LOT OF PEOPLE TO ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD!

YEP...PRETRIB MANIPULATION... ( Sorry, but that’s according to me).
So Christians go to heaven, and the Jews experience the great trib ! Nice one…but “they do lead a lot of people to accept Jesus”. Ouch…the ugly twisting that is needed as some are on earth.

Do you others see the pretrib rapture problem ? They can’t leave Christians on earth as the “church” is supposedly raptured before the great tribulation,so let those on earth be Jews !!! This is sick man.

Time will tell, but even if the mislead hold that goofed up idea, out of kindness, please note it is much safer to be out of the cities.(even if you waiting to be raptured).
WAR is on cities AND "THEY will kill you because of my name". You see… you too will experience these things as wars and reports of wars are already happening. Just ask the MILLIONS fleeing Syria, Libya, Africa etc, AND the BILLIONS starving and dying !!! WELL ? PLUS the increase of “natural disasters”…. Is NOT natural at all !

But anyway, they are not 144,000 Jews, they are 144,000 Messianic Jews who fled by obeying Jesus to "flee to the mountains". Salvation from our Lord as at AD 66.
The Messianic gentiles (Christians), who obey Jesus to flee are the great crowd associates who flee worldwide. So Rev 7; 1-8 is Messianic Jew, and 9-17 is Messianic gentile. ALL are “in sight of the throne” as they SEE the SIGN at Math 24;30 as do the evil survivors… and mourn.

However as we all agree (except Preterit's and ammill ?) the great tribulation is worldwide, destroying "Babylon the great city" worldwide, which houses "Babylon the great harlot" worldwide. (false Christ CHURCHES).

SO...Messianic gentiles (called Christians) have ONE leader only...Yeshua.
The lion from the tribe of JUDAH. Don’t put on “airs and graces” and forget our MESSIANIC roots.
Romans 11all, h;
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, [SUP]18[/SUP]do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.

If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19[/SUP]

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” [SUP]20[/SUP]Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

Do not be arrogant, but tremble.[SUP]21[/SUP]For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness.
Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

So...my belief is we Messianic Gentiles flee our countries cities, as Messianic Jews flee Israel’s cities, because the cities fall… worldwide. We are as ONE with Messianic Jews.
Together we are the “Israel of God”. “The house of Jacob”, BECAUSE… our Lord Jesus rules the whole earth from the holy land. ALL NATIONS will serve YHWH or suffer.

NOW understand Isaiah 2;
The Mountain of the Lord
2 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and many peoples shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,[SUP][a][/SUP]
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]O house of Jacob, come, let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Beautiful huh ! What pretrib rapture ?
Now see the great tribulation at the same time; v6-22 and compere Rev 6; 6[SUP]th[/SUP] seal.

So I believe in the greater exodus before the great tribulation and not a pretrib rapture.

MarcR · Sep 2, 2017

I am also in the pre-wrath camp; but I believe that the rapture occurs after the seventh seal is opened.

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

garee · Sep 2, 2017

MarcR said:

That number that no man could number is signified. It represents the chaste virgin bride of Christ, the whole church (1444,000) God makes no distinction between a Jew and a Gentile.

We walk by faith, the spiritual understanding and not by sight the literal understanding .

The Amil position works the best when looking at the book of Revelation. It signifies the things seen as parables. Without parables Christ spoke not. Hiding the spiritual meaning from the lost so that we can compare the the spiritual to the spiritual. or faith to faith, that not seen to the same.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1Co 2:13

Ahwatukee · Sep 2, 2017

The scripture is clear that the literal number of 144,000 are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Therefore, they are not Gentiles, but come out of the nation Israel as a group out of Israel who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah during that last seven years. God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile within the church. The 144,000 are not the church, but are Israelite believers after the church will have been gathered.

Furthermore, you will not find the word Ekklesia/church mentioned again after the end of chapter 3. The next time we see the word church is in Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative of the events of God's wrath. The church is nowhere mentioned in Rev.7:9-17 nor are they mentioned in Rev.12.

You are simply misapplying scriptures to support your belief.

Allenbee · Sep 3, 2017

Hello MarcR

Yahooo… at last someone whose disagrees with a pretrib rapture for ALL Christians !!!

But…you probably won’t agree with this study, as so many Christians are comfortable with this world.

I’m a private Bible student untainted by “churches”, and study shows we are to flee the tribulation on satans CITIES worldwide. Rev 18;4 “Get OUT of her my people”.

So we flee for a life on earth as created by GOD… for HIS Millennial reign, and then eternally.
Very good news; “Before us a garden of Eden…behind us a desolate waste” . Joel 2.

Don’t worry, there is a rapture coming… but NOT for ALL Christians.
Now at Rev 12 we see satan is cast down to the earth, and ”the woman (true flock) flies to the wilderness” for 3 ½ years. So I take that as the beginning of the last 3 ½ years of WRATH… for sure.
Then at Rev 7 we definitely see 144,000 alive on earth who have survived the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] seal at Ch 6, and at Ch7 v 1-4 there’s a sudden stop* of destruction, as now these 144,000 (Messianic Jews) from the ” woman” ( true flock) … are marked.
Now compare Math 24; The tribulation is cut short*… on account of the “chosen ones” , so that is the same as the tribulation stopped or cut short, to seal the 144,OOO at Rev 7; 1-4.
So the “chosen ones” at Math 24;22 are the 144000 at Rev 7;1-8… AND on earth, for the first 3 ½ years and for the last 3 ½ years.

Also at Math 24 our Lord appears “Immediately after the tribulation of “those days “.
Now “those days” are described at v 6-13 as being … Wars, reports of war, famine, pestilence “and they will hate you, even kill you, because of my name”. (first 3 ½ years).

Then too; “immediately after the tribulation of those days “, is a rapture.

So to me… some raptured, and the rest of us still alive on earth. We are the “woman” (great crowd), and are worldwide in the wilderness. Here we are being led and protected by the 144,000 during the whole great tribulation. God’s WRATH however, is on the unbelieving nations in the CITIES, and Israel is hit too.
Rev 16; 19 “and the cities of the nations fell” and Rev 11; 18 “I will bring to ruin those ruining the earth”.

At Rev 12; 14 we see this “woman” is on earth and flees to the wilderness, AWAY from the face of the serpent (Satan). AND the EARTH comes to the “woman’s” aid. NOT a rapture.

The TIMING of the rapture, and who is raptured, actually doesn’t matter to me, because God will do what God will do, so it’s out of our hands. OK !

Personally… when our Lord rules the whole of HIS creation, the earth… I would love to be there.
NB; about the great crowd at Rev 7 ;
The Greek to English reads “in sight of the lamb and in sight of the throne”, now the timing of this is immediately after the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] seal of Rev 6… the great tribulation. Now Math 24 says immediately after the tribulation is the SIGN of our Lord’s presence. So…the great crowd SEE the sign in heaven, as do the evil survivors who mourn.
So to say they are before the throne means they in heaven…is WRONG.
Then too earthly “palm branches” at our Lord’s first coming, and earthly “palm branches” at His second.
Then too…they have been worshiping Him in HIS creation, the wilderness. His temple as the whole earth is HIS. “And the one on the throne will spread His tent over them, and lead them to waters of life, and God will wipe out every tear from their eyes”. All earthly.

This belief is found by a growing number of honest Bible students, even on YouTube already as the greater exodus.

VCO · Sep 3, 2017

Allenbee said:

You have know idea what we really believe do you? Your statements about are full of false assumptions, that I am sure someone else taught you.

I wish I had dollar for every time I have been accused of Pretrib manipulation. If I did, I could go on Vacation to Israel and see the Holy Land. The TRUTH is, NONE of what I believe is based on Pretrib Manipulation. It is based on WHAT THE BIBLE LITERALLY SAYS, in the light of the Orthodox Jewish Wedding Customs which have not changed in Three or Four Thousand Years or more. When I first did a real serious study of Matthew 25:1-13, it RANG a loud bell in my HEART, because of WHAT HE said:“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom."AND I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT JEWISH WEDDING CUSTOMS, therefore I knew I HAD TO STUDY THE JEWISH WEDDING CUSTOMS IF I WANTED TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THOSE VERSES.

I learned that a Jewish wedding proposal involved a contract, a precious gift, and a bride price to purchase the Bride, payable during the day or the day after she accepted the proposal. The precious gift was the Holy Spirit, and Christ paid the bride price the afternoon after the evening she accepted the proposal.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Don’t you know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] for you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body.

I learned that the proposal itself was NON-VERBAL and so was the her ACCEPTANCE. The man seeking a bride would propose during a family sit-down supper in the dwelling place of His intended BRIDE. His proposal was the act of pouring a cup of wine, then sitting it down in front his intended bride. If she picked the cup up and drank from it, she was accepting the proposal, if she did not, she was refusing the proposal. The Disciples representing the Entire ASSEMBLY HIS HAS BUILT, drank from that betrothal cup the night of the Last Supper.

I learned that they were called Bridegroom and Bride from the moment she drank from that Cup, and it required a legal Divorce to break up that Contract of Marriage, and in Mal. 2:16, the LORD GOD, says "I HATE DIVORCE" .

I learned that every Jewish Bridegroom had to give the Bride a precious gift to assure her that he will come back for her, because the TIME OF SEPARATION could be very lengthy. JESUS promised us the precious gift of the HOLY SPIRIT, to assure us that HE WILL COME BACK FOR US.

I learned that before the Bridegroom left the old dwelling place of the Bride, every Jewish Bridegroom would turn to his Bride and say something like: "I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU". And those were the exact words of Jesus Christ:

John 14:3 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

I learned that the Bridegroom had to go back to HIS FATHER'S House to Build at least a Bridal Chamber (add-on room) if they were poor, but if they were wealthy, it could be a separate house on His Father's Property. EITHER WAY, that Son could not make the decision that the New Dwelling Place was finished, THAT DECISION was ONLY made by HIS FATHER. The Father almost never approved the first few inspections, but would point out improvements and add-ons that the FATHER decided needed to be done.

Matthew 24:36 (ESV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

I learned that the Bridegroom never came back to his Bride while he was building the New Dwelling Place. He was not permitted to set foot in his Bride's Old Dwelling Place UNTIL AFTER THE WEDDING CEREMONY, which was after the FATHER GAVE HIS FINAL APPROVAL OF THE NEW DWELLING PLACE.

I learned that the Wedding Ceremony was ALWAYS held at the House of the Bridegroom's FATHER.

I learned that the Wedding Ceremony was ALWAYS followed by Seven Days of Celebrating the Wedding.

I learned that the Feast on the 7th Day in the late afternoon, was called the Marriage Supper.

I learned that the Bridegroom and the Bride always on the day after the Marriage Supper traveled back to the House of the Bride's Father for the first time since he left to go build a place for her, and thus they returned to repeat their Vows and have another Marriage Supper with Her relatives, who could not travel to the Bridegroom's Father's House. Jesus Christ will FULFILL that at HIS SECOND COMING.

Matthew 25:1-13 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ {That is a reference to the inner personal Love Relationship with CHRIST, when you are born again, receiving HIM as LORD and MASTER.}
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.

All Ten of them are classified Virgins. I believe Virgins are synonymous with Christians, and NON-BELIEVERS ARE NOT EVEN PICTURED IN THIS STORY.

The story clearly points out that FIFTY PERCENT ARE READY and WATCHING for their Bridegroom, and will go the house Bridegroom's FATHER for the Wedding of the LAMB. The FIFTY PERCENT who were NOT READY AND WATCHING will stay here on earth, and will be the majority of the Martyred Tribulation Saints, and they to may lead quite a few unbelievers to believe and accept Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER. But understand how extremely hard those days will be. When they start beheading everyone who refuses the Mark of the Beast, understand that kind evil will make you watch the beheading of of your children before they do it to you. Can you still refuse the Mark when it means you have to watch them behead your baby, and children, and not take the Mark to save their lives?

Allenbee · Sep 3, 2017

Sorry, so cluttered as the " in a twinkling of the eye" time to edit, may as well not even be attempted.

Allenbee · Sep 3, 2017

Hello VCO, relax brother, I do believe there are those on earth who will be the bride of Christ.
I am not one of them as I have an earthly hope, but if you prefer heaven then that's fine.

Please tell me where this theory comes from that all Christians are the bride ?
Surely the bridegroom, chooses his own bride !!!
ALL my Jewish friends pick their own bride... but must be Jewish.

Jesus picked his own apostles, and they are part of the bride.

VCO · Sep 4, 2017

Allenbee said:

The Twinkling of an Eye is only a reference to HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE HIM TO CHANGE OUR MORTAL BODIES INTO A GLORIFIED ETERNAL BODY, at the Rapture. It is a Jewish expression for such a minute part of one second that it cannot be measured.

1 Corinthians 15:52-55 (ASV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP] But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP] O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?

It happens VERY FAST!

Matthew 24:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

It happens VERY FAST!

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

It happens VERY FAST!

NOW COMPARE THAT TO THE SECOND COMING:

Revelation 19:6-21 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
[SUP]8 [/SUP] It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
{All who have been sanctified by the Blood of Messiah, O.T. Saints, N.T. Saints, and Tribulation Saints, ALL are part of the ASSEMBLY HE HAS BUILT.}
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then he *said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he *said to me, "These are true words of God."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The Second Coming happens so SLOW, that all the world's armies have time to gather to attack Israel and Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

VCO · Sep 4, 2017

Allenbee said:

The Dead O.T. Saints get resurrected Glorified Eternal Bodies, and go to Heaven for the Wedding.

The Dead Church-age Saints get resurrected Glorified Eternal Bodies, and go to Heaven for the Wedding.

The Dead Tribulation Saints show up in heaven with only their Eternally alive spirits, but they too arrive in heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb, however, they will get their Glorified Eternal Bodies at the Second Coming.

The Eternal Inheritance of the land of Caanan, belongs to the 144,000 Mortal Jews who enter the Millenial Kingdom in the Mortal bodies and they will eventually grow old and DIE. The same is true about any other survivors, they to will age to about 600 and die. So how many of those SENIOR YEARS, with aching bones, walkers, and assisted living are you going to enjoy?

Now tell me Where is your earthly Hope in the Lord's Millenium?

We are promised to reign with HIM for the 1000 years, as Priests.

AND WE ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM FOR THAT THOUSAND YEARS.

Zechariah 14:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

Allenbee · Sep 4, 2017

Gosh VCO... this is supposed to be a joke, lighten up fella.

"Sorry, so cluttered as the " in a twinkling of the eye" time to edit, may as well not even be attempted".

..............................................................

Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
Yes for sure, but who chooses them, OR do they choose themselves.

So we part my friend, see ya on earth when you come back.

Goodby then.

VCO · Sep 4, 2017

Allenbee said:

You almost got that last statement RIGHT, the TRUTH IS:
HE CHOSE THOSE, before He formed the world, WHO WILL CHOOSE HIM.

Remember the Expression, "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it!"

You tell me how you see two eternal life destinies when the Scriptures say:

Philippians 4:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Yes, I also ask you, true partner, to help these women who have contended for the gospel at my side, along with Clement and the rest of my coworkers whose names are in the book of life.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!

Revelation 3:4-6 (CSBBible)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But you have a few people in Sardis who have not defiled their clothes, and they will walk with me in white, because they are worthy.
[SUP]5[/SUP] "In the same way, the one who conquers will be dressed in white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name before my Father and before his angels.[SUP]
6[/SUP] "Let anyone who has ears to hear listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.

Revelation 17:8 (CSBBible)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and is to come.

Revelation 20:12-15 (CSBBible)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them; each one was judged according to their works.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

2 Corinthians 5:1 (GWT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] We know that if the life we live here on earth is ever taken down like a tent, we still have a building from God. It is an eternal house in heaven that isn't made by human hands.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (GW)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to tens of thousands of angels joyfully gathered together
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and to the assembly of God's firstborn children (whose names are written in heaven). You have come to a judge (the God of all people) and to the spirits of people who have God's approval and have gained eternal life.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] You have come to Jesus, who brings the new promise from God, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better message than Abel's.

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Joshua 24:14-15 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

DiscipleDave · Sep 17, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, YOU disagree, but Scriptures doesn't

Ahwatukee said:

Seriously? You say you gave Scriptural proof but give no Scriptures. How is that done? "Sir I give you Scriptural Proof by giving you my opinion" lol. If you are going to give Scriptural Proof, then give Scriptures.
Jesus is the One who opens the seals. Does the Timeline show differently? Jesus is in Heaven right now, Jesus opens the Seals in Heaven. Nothing in the Timeline indicates that Jesus does not open the seals. Please explain what you are trying to say, because what you said does not reveal anything about the timeline being wrong. If you are saying the timeline is wrong because i show some of the seals being opened before the 7 year tribulation. Then show me Scriptures which prove they are NOT opened prior to the 70th Week. Or even show me Scriptures that proves the first 5 seals ARE OPENED during the 70th week. So Show Scriptures which Prove they are NOT opened before the 70th week, or Scriptures that teach that MUST be opened during the 70th week. What you gave me above is NO Scriptural proof at all, even though you claim it is. Just because YOU believe something does not make it Scriptural Proof.

Ahwatukee said:

Every bit of this is YOUR Opinion, is it not? Else reveal the Scriptures that teach anything that you say above.

Are there any Scriptures that teach New Jerusalem does not come down in the middle of the Tribulation Period? NO

You say and teach that Scriptures clearly puts the New City coming down out of Heaven AFTER the new Heaven and the new Earth are created. Is it not your opinion that is at the end of the 7 year Tribulation Period. Where does Scriptures indicate that?
Here is the TRUTH, the 7 Trumpets blowing in the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period is what creates the New Heaven and the New Earth. The creating of the New Heaven and New Earth starts at the very first of the Tribulation Period. By the end of the 7 Trumpets blowing it is plain after 3 1/2 years of God changing the planets atmosphere and Earth is NEW.

Here is my point, you can't show any Scriptures which say Holy Jerusalem comes down at the end of the 7 year Tribulation Period, nor can you show any Scriptures which teaches it does NOT come down in the middle of it. Likewise i myself can't show you any Scriptures that teach it comes down in the middle of the Tribulation Period either. i just teach what God has told me, and He has told me it comes down exactly where it shows in the Timeline above. Now if you can show me Scriptures which disprove it, NOT your opinions but Scriptures, which proves it to be incorrect, that would be great. However i know what God told me is TRUE, But if you try to find any Scriptures to disprove it, it is my hope you will see that Scriptures does not disprove it, but lines up with it perfectly.

Ahwatukee said:

Agreed. New Heaven and New Earth starts at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation Period.

1st Trumpet = 1/3 trees burnt up and ALL grass burnt
2nd Trumpet = 1/3 of all oceans turn to blood and 1/3 of all life in the oceans die
3rd Trumpet = 1/3 of all rivers and lakes become poison
4th Trumpet = 1/3 of Sun, Moon, and Stars smitten
5th Trumpet = Sun and Air are darkened
6th Trumpet = four angels loosed in the great river Euphrates.
7th Trumpet = Mystery of God finished, as the old prophets declared.

NEW Heaven and NEW Earth. Granted there is still more to do to complete the Restoration of the atmosphere and Earth. But it will be clearly evident by the end of the 7th Trumpet it is a New Heaven and a New Earth by that time. It is at that time Jesus Returns to the Earth, and Rivers will comes out from the Holy City to water the entire Earth. It is also at this time the Tree of life will grow along all these Rivers, The leaves being for the Healing of the people (Not saints, they are Raptured up)

Show me any Scriptures (not your opinions) that proves the Holy City does not come down where the Timeline indicates. Thanks.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Ahwatukee · Sep 17, 2017

Once again, here is the scriptural proof:

"I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals"

"When the Lamb opened the second seal"

"When the Lamb opened the third seal"

"When the Lamb opened the fourth seal"

Now understand this. Jesus, the Lamb is the One opening the seals, therefore His is responsible for initiating the resulting fatalities. He is the One who tramples the wine-press of the wrath of God Almighty and the seals are apart of that wrath. At the opening of the 4th seal a fourth of the earth will be killed as a result, which would be approx. 1.7 billion people within the first 3 1/2 years.

So now that you have read it, please stop saying that I have not provided scripture, because there it is right above.

I have other scriptures that I will provide as proof, once you have gathered yours or others apologetics. Because that is what you guys do. You ask for scriptural proof and then when it is given, you toss it out and ask for more scriptures as proof.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all belong together as a unit of wrath in which God will use to carry out the day of the Lord, the time of His wrath. They are not to be separated, as they are the means in which God will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government.

Because the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath in any way shape or form, the church must be, and will be, gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's time of wrath.

The following events are in scriptural chronological order as Jesus returns to the earth to end the age:

* Rev.19:11-21 = The Lord returning to the earth to end the age

* Rev.19:20 = As the Lord returns to the earth, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Rev.20:1-3 = Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years

* Rev.20:7-9 = Satan is released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years

* Rev.20:10 = Satan is thrown into the lake of fire

* Rev.20:11 = At the end of the thousand years the great white throne judgment of all the unrighteous dead takes place

* Rev.21 = I saw a new heaven, new earth for the first heaven and first earth had passed away. And I say the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.

Therefore, the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to the new earth, which does not come into existence until after the great white throne judgment takes place and after this current heaven and earth have passed away.

I should not even be debating about this because the chronological order of this is all too obvious. But again, I'm sure that you will collect your apologetics to refute what I have just provided, which will only make sense to you.

DiscipleDave · Sep 17, 2017

The Rapture happens at the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Mystery of God is finished, this happens at the 7th Trumpet.
The Prophets were told by God about the 7th Trumpet, the Rapture, the Return of Jesus Christ.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When do the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of Jesus Christ? When? At the 7th Trumpet.
When does Jesus Christ start to REIGN? At the 7th Trumpet.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

WHEN is the time of the dead Judged? At the 7th Trumpet. The time of the dead are Judged, Judgment Day. Those who are dead in Christ, will at this time rise to meet Jesus and reign with Him forever. Those who are dead will be judged and remain left behind, remain dead until the end of the 1,000 year Reign of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment.

WHEN are the SAINTS given rewards? At the 7th Trumpet.
WHEN are the Prophets given their rewards? At the 7th Trumpet.
WHEN is Jesus going to DESTROY those who destroy the Earth? At the beginning of the 7th Trumpet.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When do the dead in Christ raise incorruptible? When are the Saints Changed in a twinkling of an eye? When? The last Trumpet sounding. WOW, clear as can be when the Rapture will happen, but this generation believes lies from satan and do not believe this verse is referring to 7th Trumpet of Revelations. And when i ask these same people then to which last trumpet sounding is this verse talking about, they have NOTHING to answer back. Let them be they are deceived and devoid of the TRUTH.

Now tell me, WHEN is the Temple in Heaven opened? At the 7th Trumpet.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Now what happens when the Temple of God is opened in Heaven at the 7th TRUMPET?

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

When according to Scriptures is the Temple opened? the 7th Trumpet.
Who comes out of that Temple when it is Opened? The 7 Angels with the 7 last plagues.

Anyone who believes contrary to what is written above, believes contrary to what Scriptures teaches.
Anyone who does not believe what is written above, does not believe God who told me these things will happen.

7 seals / 7 trumpets / RAPTURE / 7 vials.

Pre-trib is a lie.
Post-trib is a lie.
ONLY Mid-trib lines up with ALL Scriptures.

Pre-trib does not line up with Scriptures
Post-trib does not line up with Scriptures.

All those who are diehard fans of pretrib, will most likely be those who will fall away, when they see the Earth being destroyed by God and Jesus had not Come yet. For 3 1/2 years the Planet will suffer great distress as was never seen before, and the Church will go through 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, this is called the Hour of Temptation, and i tell you the TRUTH, Many and i say Many will fall away from the Faith because Jesus did not come BEFORE all the Tribulation began as they have falsely believed their whole entire lives.
But here is Good News, God sent me to this generation to tell you the Truth, so that you are not ignorant of it. i have done what God has instructed me to do, i have told you what He has told me concerning this matter, if you choose to remain ignorant and believe the false doctrines, believe what men tell you is the truth, then my hands our clean, i have told you the Truth and you rejected it. Again, my hands are clean.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Ahwatukee · Sep 17, 2017

GINORMOUS PROBLEM ALERT!!!

The 7th trumpet, is not the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15:52. This is an erroneous interpretation based only on the word "trumpet" and because the 7th trumpet is the last of those seven.

The big problem is that, the seals and six of the trumpet judgments of wrath will have taken place prior to the 7th trumpet and therefore the church cannot be gathered here because it would mean that the church would have to go through all of the seals and trumpets, which would put them as going through God's wrath which according to 1 Thes.5:9 believers are not appointed to suffer. And according to 1 Thes.1:10 Jesus rescues us from God's coming wrath. And which according to Rev.3:10, Jesus said He would keep believers "out of" that time of wrath.

Therefore, the church cannot and will be gathered prior to God wrath being poured out, which means that we must be gone prior to the first seal being opened.

In addition, the 7th trumpet is an event of wrath. Consequently, there is nothing in the context, either before or after, that reveals the church being gathered at the 7th trumpet.

The church is never mentioned after the end of chapter 3 and during the narrative of God's wrath and that because it is no longer on the earth.

Issachar92 · Sep 17, 2017

Dave the problem is, the 7th trumpet aint the last trumpet in corinthians. This is a classical error alotta folks trip into. I understand I thought of it too.

But here is why it aint the last trumpet: when Paul wrote to the corinthians, the book of revelation aint even been written yet, so they had no idea about no trumpets in the book of revelation.

Lemme tell ya what the trumpet is all about. Jesus came to fulfill the Scriptures, and what this last trumpet refers to is the feast of trumpets being fulfilled at the resurrection. This is where the hebrew idiom No man knoweth the day nor the hour comes from too, because you couldn't know the exact time of the moon, you had two people at watch all the time.

I posted a visual of the feasts being fulfilled look at my post #7442

DiscipleDave · Sep 17, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

All these things i know and are True, But they are NOT Scriptural proof that something in the Timeline is wrong. What do you think Jesus ONLY can open the seals during the Tribulation Period? if so then reveal that Scripture. Can you reveal any Scriptures whatsoever that teach that Jesus CAN'T open any of the seals in Heaven BEFORE the Tribulation Period? You can't, because there aren't any verses that teach that.

My point is, and still remains, if you do not believe some of the seals are opened BEFORE Tribulation begins, then show the Scriptures which support that, or they are just your opinion which Scriptures does not support.

Ahwatukee said:

So that can't possibly happen BEFORE the Tribulation period? Is that what you are saying. Tell me who is responsible for fatalities concerning Acts of God? Those who are killed during a Hurricane which is an ACT of God, unless of coarse you are one of those who believe satan can control ACTS of God, who then is responsible for initiating the resulting Hurricane? Jesus/God What? Don't you think Jesus can't initiate resulting fatalities unless the Tribulation Period has already begun? That is what it seems you are suggesting. You think that the seals, which are initiated by Jesus which results in fatalities can only happen AFTER the Tribulation Period begins, this simply is not True, and your assumption is in error.

Ahwatukee said:

OK, now we are getting somewhere. YOU think that the seals are a part of the Wrath of God Almighty. You need to do a study on the seals. The first five seals are NOT Acts of God. The first five seals are people killing people, wars and the such. NONE of the first five seals are the wrath of God. But only God allowing people to kill people. It is only at the 6th Seal that God's wrath is revealed. You do error in thinking ALL of the seals are a part of the The 7 year Tribulation Period, which is indeed the wrath of God given by God to the Earth.

Ahwatukee said:

All you say here is opinion, NOT Scriptural. The 4th seal is people killing people. YOU say the 4th seal is during the first 3 1/2 years. Scriptures does not teach that, that is something that YOU believe, and therefore YOU teach. Again, NOT Scriptural.

Ahwatukee said:

Again, you keep saying you have provided Scriptures that proves something in the timeline to be wrong, yet all i see is your opinions of what Scriptures means, your interpretations. Yet i have not seen one verse of Scriptures from you yet that proves (save that one time that you did, and i corrected the Timeline because of it) the proves something else in the Timeline to be incorrect.

Ahwatukee said:

Other Scriptures, this i hope is the Truth, because so far i have only gotten your opinions. Sorry i have no ideal what you mean by "gathering yours" or what "apologetics" even means. Please explain what you are saying here. Thanks.

Ahwatukee said:

What verse do you give that proves something in the Timeline is wrong? What verse DID you give that proves it to be incorrect? Seriously, i have not seen one verse, only words from you, and not one single verse. Again, have no clue what you mean by your statement "you guys".

Ahwatukee said:

OK, this is YOUR opinion. Show me any verses which support what you say here if you can. i know you can't show one verse that supports the above statement. YOU believe the seals, trumpets, and bowls all belong in the 7 year Tribulation Period, because that is what YOU BELIEVE. That is NOT what Scriptures teach, as i keep saying over and over again. If you think Scriptures teach what you say above, that the all the seals, trumpets, and bowls are during the 7 year Tribulation Period, then show those verses that teach that, and then you will have shown me Scriptures that proves the Timeline is incorrect. But as it is right now, and anyone can go back and reread all the posts of our conversation, you have NOT done that yet.

Ahwatukee said:

Again, your opinion being displayed here. Tell me Can WARS decimate the majority of the population of the Earth. How many Jews did hitler kill. You act as if ONLY the 7 year Tribulation Period is what can deplete the world of evil people.

There is nothing in Scriptures that teaches all the seals are within the 7 year Tribulation Period, this is YOUR opinion.

Ahwatukee said:

All your opinion if you think Scripural, then reveal the Scriptures which back up what you are saying here. We are not appointed to wrath, UNLESS we appoint it for ourselves. Is it not written, you will reap what you sow? Is it not written "Tribulation and Anguish upon every soul that doeth evil" The Church is not appointed for wrath, unless of coarse the Church appoints itself to His Wrath. Tribulation and Anguish upon every soul that doeth evil. EVERY soul, that means EVERYONE, Church included. The Lord will render to every man according to his/her deeds (Rom 2:6)

Ahwatukee said:

All these are TRUE, the Lord Returning at the 7th Trumpet begins the events that you describe. Except the following is not True.

Ahwatukee said:

NOTHING in Scriptures teaches, indicates, or even implies that it is AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, that is what YOU teach, not Scriptures.

Ahwatukee said:

i have no apologetics, don't even know what that is or what it means, don't care. i only answer to God, i hearken to Him and to His Word, i do not listen to people and their words, their opinions, their interpretations. What i know to be True is from God, what man should i then hearken to? i am not an apologetics or anything else for that matter, i am merely a servant of God, who told me to teach this generation the things that He has told me to reveal, this i do.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Issachar92 · Sep 17, 2017

Dave you just said that there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches the New Jerusalem descends upon the new earth after the great white throne judgment. Have you read the book of revelation?

The timeline is pretty clear, in revelation 20, you got the millennium and after that millennium satan is judged and then guess what? Ya guessed it, its that white throne judgment time.
And take a wild guess at what happens after that? Then he saw the ...... wait for it....... new heaven and new earth.

I just read your entire answer, think again man, you are into some weird doctrines. Ya just done said that the seals arent caused by God... who is opening the seals? the Lamb. Who did ya learn this stuff from?

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