The Rapture

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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
4,035
166
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I've addressed these "stumbling" points you have AB - no point going over "the same old ground year after year" - one lost soul swimming in a fish bowl...

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
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I did not say I hold to "a completely literal interpretation exclusively".
That is one extreme, to say that someone is "completely literal interpretation exclusively". So we would agree that there is at least some symbolism, obviously.

But then we must ask ourselves, what is symbolic and what is not? Or what entities do the symbols represent? What events do they show?

The symbols show literal entities, involved in literal events. But some want to take the symbols themselves as literal.

For example, the beast is not a real animal, like a cow or a bird. The beast is a nation that is shown to be Rome, the iron nation of the statue in Dan. 2, the 4th beast of Dan.7, and the dragon of Rev 12. (Until this truth is fully realized, you will not complete the time line correctly.)

Yes. But I also believe there will be a rapture of the Christian church preceding the trib. The rapture will precede both resurrections mentioned in Rev 20.
But then, if you hold to pre-trib, you must add many more resurrections, the 5th seal martyrs, the 2W's, the resur of Rev 14, etc...so that the resurrections of Rev 20 actually end up being the 6th or 7th resurrections.
You end up contradicting Paul in 1 Cor 15:23-28 who says that there are only 2 resurrections.


The resurrection of the just (AKA the "first" resurrection) will happen after Armageddon when Christ sets up his kingdom (Rev 20:4).
The 1st resurrection was Jesus, that's what Paul said.

The kingdom/church began on Pentecost and we are all members of the kingdom/church on planet earth now. You may be confusing the setting up of the kingdom on Pentecost, with the harvest of the finished kingdom shown in Rev 11:15.


The resurrection of the unjust (AKA the "second" resurrection) will happen at the end of the millennial kingdom (Rev 20:12-13).
The #1 resurrection Jesus and the OT saints, the just ascend with Jesus.

The #2 resurrection, at the end of the mill., both the just (since the #1 resurrection) and unjust are resurrected.


Jesus' resurrection occurred almost 2000 years ago.
Yes, the #1 resur.

The resurrections of the just and unjust, as well as the rapture, have yet to happen.
Yet to happen yes, but after the rapt resur./7th/last trumpet, at the end of the mill period,.......then it is the end where death is destroyed.


On that we agree.

We are in the church age, the administration of grace. We are not in the kingdom, that will happen after the trib and 1st resurrection, both of which are still future.
After Jesus comes for those who are His,..... it is the end where death is destroyed.

Sorry, I agree with very, very little of your eschatological view.
Pre-trib has many problems in it's theories that few really care to address, will you?

The revelation is not one continual time line.

The events of Rev 4:1-2, are not the church/kingdom being resur/raptured. It literally says John. There is nothing there to indicate that it is symbolic of the kingdom/church, no words or phrases as the "great teachers" say that there must be to show symbolism, breaking their own rules to make their time line work.

There is NO TRUMPET that is sounded there, only a voice, that "sounds like" a trumpet. But pre-trib says that it IS a trumpet, the last trumpet, even though there are 7 trumpets yet to sound.

Those seen in heaven with Jesus in 96 ad are the OT saints from the #1 resur of Jesus.

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Will you accept what sounds good, without really exploring the implications and contradictions of how the scriptures are being used?

Content to just scratch the surface of the theories without any allowances for contradictory input?

Do you fear the truth? or seek it? If you found it, would you not want to hear more?

Understand this one truth,........The beast is Rome, confirmed by the iron of Dan 2., and the 4th beast of Dan.7.

The iron continues to the end of the statue, without a gap. Who was the iron nation 2000 yrs ago?

Who was the iron nation 1000 yrs ago?

Who was the iron nation 200 yrs ago?

Who is the iron nation right now? Will you face the truth? Can you answer?
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
63
I've addressed these "stumbling" points you have AB - no point going over "the same old ground year after year" - one lost soul swimming in a fish bowl...

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

View attachment 183799
Oh thanks for putting that song in my head.

You know, I keep having this short term/long term memory loss, maybe you could answer the scriptures I gave you again,

How was Gen 8:22 fulfilled by 70 ad? "While the earth remaineth," points to a time when it will not remain and the things mentioned will cease.

How was Gen 1:28 fulfilled by 70 ad? was the planet earth subdued by then?

It should be easy, since you have answered them before, yes?

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
456
83
That is one extreme, to say that someone is "completely literal interpretation exclusively". So we would agree that there is at least some symbolism, obviously.

But then we must ask ourselves, what is symbolic and what is not? Or what entities do the symbols represent? What events do they show?

The symbols show literal entities, involved in literal events. But some want to take the symbols themselves as literal.

For example, the beast is not a real animal, like a cow or a bird. The beast is a nation that is shown to be Rome, the iron nation of the statue in Dan. 2, the 4th beast of Dan.7, and the dragon of Rev 12. (Until this truth is fully realized, you will not complete the time line correctly.)
I know you are convinced of that. I am not. I believe the nation could be the nation of Islam.

But then, if you hold to pre-trib, you must add many more resurrections, the 5th seal martyrs, the 2W's, the resur of Rev 14, etc...so that the resurrections of Rev 20 actually end up being the 6th or 7th resurrections.
The 5th seal martyrs will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just, in Rev 20:4. The two witnesses will be a special situation. I don't know about any resurrection in Rev 14.

You end up contradicting Paul in 1 Cor 15:23-28 who says that there are only 2 resurrections.
Paul teaches the rapture for the Christian church (1 Thes 4:13ff and 1 Cor 15:51ff).

The 1st resurrection was Jesus, that's what Paul said.
Jesus' resurrection was not the "first" resurrection. Jesus was the firstfruits, the first one raised from the dead. The resurrections will occur in the future.

The kingdom/church began on Pentecost and we are all members of the kingdom/church on planet earth now. You may be confusing the setting up of the kingdom on Pentecost, with the harvest of the finished kingdom shown in Rev 11:15.
The kingdom was not set up at Pentecost. We are not in the kingdom. The kingdom will be set up after the trib.

The #1 resurrection Jesus and the OT saints, the just ascend with Jesus.
The first resurrection will consist of all dead OT believers, believers who died before Pentecost, and people who will come to believe and be killed for their faith during the trib.

The #2 resurrection, at the end of the mill., both the just (since the #1 resurrection) and unjust are resurrected.
The second resurrection will be for everyone not previously raised at the rapture (Christians) or the first resurrection. It is called the resurrection of the unjust because most of the people raised at that time will be sentenced to the second death.

Yes, the #1 resur.
No, Jesus was not the "first" resurrection. That will happen in Rev 20:4.

Yet to happen yes, but after the rapt resur./7th/last trumpet, at the end of the mill period,.......then it is the end where death is destroyed.
Yes, death will be destroyed after the millennial kingdom, at the end of the white throne judgment.

After Jesus comes for those who are His,..... it is the end where death is destroyed.
A lot happens between the rapture and the end.

Pre-trib has many problems in it's theories that few really care to address, will you?
I don't think there are problems with it. I will try and answer some of your objections, but you are convinced you are correct, and will likely not accept anything else. If that proves to be true, it's probably best to abandon the conversation.

The revelation is not one continual time line.
Agreed.

The events of Rev 4:1-2, are not the church/kingdom being resur/raptured. It literally says John. There is nothing there to indicate that it is symbolic of the kingdom/church, no words or phrases as the "great teachers" say that there must be to show symbolism, breaking their own rules to make their time line work.
I do agree with you there. The rapture of the Christian church is not in the book of Revelation.

There is NO TRUMPET that is sounded there, only a voice, that "sounds like" a trumpet. But pre-trib says that it IS a trumpet, the last trumpet, even though there are 7 trumpets yet to sound.
The "last trumpet" that will sound at the rapture has nothing to do with the 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation.

Those seen in heaven with Jesus in 96 ad are the OT saints from the #1 resur of Jesus.
Nobody besides Jesus Christ is currently in heaven.

Will you accept what sounds good, without really exploring the implications and contradictions of how the scriptures are being used?
I will accept the truth. I do not believe your understanding of the end times is the truth.

Content to just scratch the surface of the theories without any allowances for contradictory input?

Do you fear the truth? or seek it? If you found it, would you not want to hear more?

Understand this one truth,........The beast is Rome, confirmed by the iron of Dan 2., and the 4th beast of Dan.7.
I do not believe you are correct.

The iron continues to the end of the statue, without a gap. Who was the iron nation 2000 yrs ago?

Who was the iron nation 1000 yrs ago?

Who was the iron nation 200 yrs ago?

Who is the iron nation right now? Will you face the truth? Can you answer?
Not to your satisfaction. The only thing you will accept is agreement with you, something I cannot do.

Here is an overview of how I believe things will play out:
1) Jesus Christ will return and gather the Christian church (the rapture). That will be the next major intervention by God on this world. Personally, I think that time is getting close (I could be wrong..). That is when dead Christians will be raised from the dead, and living Christians changed.
2) the 7 year trib will begin to play out, including the seals, trumpets, thunders, and bowl judgments. It will not be a pleasant time for those on this earth. We (Christians) will be in heaven with Christ.
3) At the end of the trib, Christ will return to earth with the armies of heaven (I believe that will include us) to fight Armageddon. After winning, he will then begin to set up his kingdom (the millennial kingdom).
4) the sheep and goat judgment will occur. This will be for those people who make it alive through the trib. Some, the sheep, will be allowed into the kingdom, and some (the goats) won't.
5) the resurrection of the just will occur. As I said above, this will be for all the dead OT believers, and those killed for their faith during the trib.
6) Satan will be bound.
7) the millennial kingdom will last 1000 years. It will be a wonderful place to be. Peace, justice, plenty of food, no sickness (and no death for Christians..). The people who made it alive through the trib and allowed into the kingdom will still procreate, and die.
8) At the end of the kingdom, Satan will be released and manage to convince a large number of people to rebel against Jesus. They will be destroyed by God.
9) the second resurrection will occur, and the white throne judgment. Everyone not previously resurrected will participate, and be judged.
10) the new heaven and earth, with New Jerusalem descending from heaven, and we will live with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ forever.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
63
I know you are convinced of that. I am not. I believe the nation could be the nation of Islam.
Brother shrume,

Please consider this, The beast is Rome, the iron nation of Daniel 2, and the 4th beast nation of Dan 7.

But we are living in a time where it is the image of the beast, the image of the Roman Empire/Caesar, the RCC and the Bishop of Rome. The spirit of Satan to kill Israel still exists, but does not now have the power to destroy Israel by himself anymore, being only the image.

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Other entities shown in the Revelation are the kings of the east and Magog, this is where Islam enters into the equation.

The Roman Image does not have the power to kill Israel at this present time, so he deceives the kings of the east, who is Iran, into crossing the Euphrates River to attack Israel and Jerusalem.

This is shown at the 6th trumpet Rev 9:12-21, the 6th vial Rev 16:12-16, and at the end of the mill in Rev 20:7-9 when Jerusalem is surrounded, which are all the same event and taking place right now.

So you are right about Islam and the imminent danger that it posses to Israel, you see it, plain and staring us in the face. But you are not seeing it in it's proper position in the time line. People are waiting for the events of the Revelation to begin, but the events that are taking place now are at the end of the mill., just before the GWT judgment.

Iran and the gentile nations Magog, who are Russia, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, and many other who hate Israel have Israel and Jerusalem surrounded right now.

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The 5th seal martyrs will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just, in Rev 20:4. The two witnesses will be a special situation. I don't know about any resurrection in Rev 14.
Rev 6:9-11, If the 5th seal martyrs are shown to be under the alter in heaven, how can they be resurrected in Rev 20:4, if they are already in heaven?



Paul teaches the rapture for the Christian church (1 Thes 4:13ff and 1 Cor 15:51ff).
The church and the kingdom are the same thing.


Jesus' resurrection was not the "first" resurrection. Jesus was the firstfruits, the first one raised from the dead. The resurrections will occur in the future.
Jesus was the first one raised from the dead, you say that, but then you say no, Jesus was not the first one raised from the dead, which is it? Are you saying that Jesus was not resurrected? That He was the first one raised from the dead, but that He wasn't resurrected?


The kingdom was not set up at Pentecost. We are not in the kingdom. The kingdom will be set up after the trib.
We are in the kingdom now, Col 1:13, Rev 1:9.

Understand that there are different phases to the kingdom.
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John the Baptist lived before the kingdom came.

The kingdom/church on planet earth began on Pentecost, Christ's kingdom, given to Him by the Father. First with the natural branches and then the wild gentile branches.

At the end of the kingdom/church on planet earth age (end of the mill), Jesus comes for the kingdom, when the fullness of souls has come.

The kingdom and all souls are in judgment at the GWT.

Death is destroyed, beginning the events that lead to the final eternal place with God.

The kingdom is delivered up to the Father AFTER death is destroyed 1 Cor 15:23-28, not before the trib as some teach. Now it becomes the Father's kingdom, when Jesus has put down all other authority and death. (Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth [the new earth] as it is in heaven [the new heavens])

The eternal kingdom, the Father's kingdom, the Father is All in All.


The first resurrection will consist of all dead OT believers, believers who died before Pentecost,
That happened when Jesus was resurrected.


and people who will come to believe and be killed for their faith during the trib.
Understand that the troubles of Israel began when the Iron nation Rome invaded Israel in 63 bc, so those who are seen with Jesus in heaven in 96 ad were from the time of the beast before the first resurrection of Jesus.


The second resurrection will be for everyone not previously raised at the rapture (Christians) or the first resurrection. It is called the resurrection of the unjust because most of the people raised at that time will be sentenced to the second death.
Jesus and the OT saints, 33ad, the first #1 resurrection.

The kingdom/church at the #2 resurrection, yet to happen.

Then it is the end when this planet is destroyed.


No, Jesus was not the "first" resurrection. That will happen in Rev 20:4.
Yes, death will be destroyed after the millennial kingdom, at the end of the white throne judgment.

A lot happens between the rapture and the end.
When the rapt/resur happens, that is it, this planet is destroyed within the hour. There will be no one left alive on this planet.


I don't think there are problems with it. I will try and answer some of your objections, but you are convinced you are correct, and will likely not accept anything else. If that proves to be true, it's probably best to abandon the conversation.
I have changed my mind on several things after discussions on this website. The 70 wks, the ID of the woman in Rev 17, and some things that I remain undecided about. I'm open to new understandings and insights, wanting to learn more.

Sorry I have to stop here for now.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
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The rapture of the Christian church is not in the book of Revelation.
The church is the kingdom of Israel with Jesus as king, wild and natural branches.

The resur/rapt of the kingdom/church is seen in the 2W's, the 7th trumpet and the end of the mill. They are all the same event.


The "last trumpet" that will sound at the rapture has nothing to do with the 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation.
At the 7th trumpet Jesus comes for the kingdom/church, the dead are judged, the saints are rewarded, and the mystery of God is revealed and finished when the ark of His testament is seen (Jesus in His glory in the heart of God, we will see His face).


Nobody besides Jesus Christ is currently in heaven.
God the Father? Angels and cherubs? Souls from the OT who were resurrected to heaven with Jesus in 33 ad? Eph 4:8-10, 10.

These are the only "beings" that we are told about, that have been revealed to us. There may be many others that have not been revealed to us yet.


I will accept the truth. I do not believe your understanding of the end times is the truth.
Just keep your eyes on the middle east and Jerusalem. The kings of the east (Iran) are assembling their armies along with Magog to battle in the valley of Armageddon, conquer Jerusalem and kill Israel. Then Jesus comes for the kingdom/church at the 7th trumpet and this planet ends in fire.

It's not a matter of If you will believe it or not, ......it's just a matter of When you will believe it. When this world is over and this planet is flying away at the GWT, then you can witness to Jesus that I told you the truth, because we will understand completely then.

When Jerusalem falls this time, everyone will realize that the previous traditional time lines were not correct. They say that Jerusalem will be saved by Jesus when Iran and it's allies attack. That is what the warmongers who want to attack/bomb Iran believe. Instead of the gospel sword, they want to use spears and bombs. They believe that they cannot lose and if they do Jesus will come back and save Israel. But the scroll is bitter and the 2W's are killed. They believe that by attacking Iran, that somehow it will bring about the return of Jesus. And they are right, but, Israel will be destroyed and Jerusalem will fall. Their thoughts that Israel will be saved and that the mill kingdom will be set up, will be dashed to pieces being responsible and guilty for the deaths of millions of Israelites.



I do not believe you are correct.
Then what is your explanation of the iron nation in the statue of Daniel 2? If the iron nation is not Rome?


Not to your satisfaction. The only thing you will accept is agreement with you, something I cannot do.
Good grief man, ha, ha. I disagree with almost everybody! That's what makes a good discussion. Test what you believe about the Bible. How will we witness to anybody if we don't have some knowledge of the theories that are out there?

We are both Christians. We learn from our differences. That makes us stronger in the Word of God and increases our knowledge when we study. Even if we continue to disagree, we are either confirming what we believe or confirming what we do not believe. Either way, I believe that Jesus loves those who love His Word. Surely we are blessed beyond measure in access to God's wonderful words of life. To disagree should not be tearing down, it should be a building of faith (on the rock, don't build on the false sand).

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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
3,522
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It seems that people rely more on world political events than they do on their own faith in Christ. Before the Iraq war Saddam Hussain was the Bogyman of the middle east and the prophecy pundits worked overtime predicting Israels demise at his hands. We all know what happened to him and Iraq is a shadow of its former self. Supposing something happens to Iran and its regime either by an outside element or through an internal revolution before they manage to obtain nuclear capability? There isn't any other Arab/Islamic nation who alone could pose a similar threat. My main point is that a huge amount of end time speculation relies not on peoples faith in Christ but faith in international politics. Much of it is also based on fear.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
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It seems that people rely more on world political events than they do on their own faith in Christ.
Brother tanakh.

There has never been a time when all of the prophecies have fit so perfectly.

There are several reasons why this could not be understood before recent times.

1. Israel was not restored to Jerusalem. This was always speculation whether or not Israel would be restored to Jerusalem. Now that it has happened, the anchors in the time line can be identified.

2. The 6th trumpet had not blown. The story of the little scroll is not told when the 7th seal is broken, it is told after the 6th trumpet. The meaning of the story of the 2W's (Israel the natural broken off branches), could not be fully understood/revealed until after that time, 2001.

3. The exact identification of the entities could not be determined to the extent that they are understood now.. Iran, Magog, Rome, and restored Jerusalem being the most outstanding examples.

4. The identification of current events in relation to the overall time line.


Before the Iraq war Saddam Hussain was the Bogyman of the middle east and the prophecy pundits worked overtime predicting Israels demise at his hands. We all know what happened to him and Iraq is a shadow of its former self.
That event fits perfectly as the 6th vial. The waters (people) of the Euphrates area dry up (loose their power), making way for the kings of the east (Iran) to attack Jerusalem. This event is only significant because Israel must be restored to Jerusalem by this time.


Supposing something happens to Iran and its regime either by an outside element or through an internal revolution
This could happen. The time could be delayed, in our eyes. It could be 100 years, I really don't know. But I believe that the events that are prophecy will happen, without a doubt. I don't understand it all, but I believe in it completely, totally, and with all my heart.

I believe that these things are real, as many do. But it is the identification of the entities and events in the time line where there is disagreement. The traditional time lines that have been taught and adjusted for years are not completely accurate. The theories are shown to be full of holes.


before they manage to obtain nuclear capability?
The nuclear side had little to do with anything. The 6th trumpet and 6th vial show that Israel is defeated by overwhelming numbers, 200 mill.


There isn't any other Arab/Islamic nation who alone could pose a similar threat.
None of them do alone. But Iran together with Russia and it's allies will defeat Israel.

When we look at the reality of what is happening now, we must also try to look ahead a little bit.

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Who will defend Israel after the US pulls out of Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan? Will the EU abandon Israel to defend their own nations, after some one abandons the NATO alliance?

Will isolationism become the policy of the US? So that in a few years the US abandons it's allies and aligns with dictatorships?

Israel, half the size of the Netherlands.


My main point is that a huge amount of end time speculation relies not on peoples faith in Christ but faith in international politics. Much of it is also based on fear.
I agree, fear seems to be the winning spirit of politics.

I do not fear that Jesus is coming for His kingdom. But I do have heart, great fear and sorrow, for the people of Israel and the things that must happen before Jesus comes. The 2W's are the people of Israel restored to Jerusalem after the times of the gentiles.
 

MrMyrrh

New member
Jun 12, 2018
1
0
1
I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS
the "great tribulation" doesnt start until have way through the 7 year period. after the peace treaty is broken.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,371
397
83
Rapture is in 2045.
Friend, there is absolutely no way for you or anyone else to know when the Lord is going to appear and gather His church, period! In addition, there is no way to know who the antichrist is, as he can't be known until he makes his seven years covenant with Israel.

We've already had someone come on this site stating that he was given information by an angel from God the Father that the ground breaking for the temple would take place this last May and of course that didn't happen, just as I told him it wouldn't.

Throughout scripture Jesus tells us to watch, for He will come like a thief, at a time we least expect Him. If we knew when He was coming, then we wouldn't have to watch.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
6,255
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Yes there was a transition period PL - the 40 years are the millennium in my view.

The 1st century saints of the 12 tribes lived and reigned with him a "thousand years" = 40 years. (Rev 20:6)

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The above are the first fruits that came out of the Great Tribulation:

Rev 7:14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 14:4.............These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

James writes to those of the 12 tribes who have accepted Jesus as first fruits:

James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Peter writing to the scattered of the 12 tribes calls them priests as does John in Rev 20:6

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen.

1 Pet 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Peter is not writing to Gentiles as is the popular belief. Firstly his ministry was to the circumcised and secondly "scattered" or diaspora is a term used for the "dispersion" of the tribes of Israel, it is never used to describe Gentile believers.

John 7:35 The Jews then said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He?

Dispersion, scattered, dispersed is the same Greek word diaspora.
Hi LOC,

Sorry for late reply, been super busy. Anyway, so we agree on almost everything except the timing and duration of the Millennium. You hold to a 40 year millennium which ended in 70 AD. I hold to a "long period" millennium that began at Pentecost (or even the Cross) and transitions for 40 years alongside the Law then totally replaces the Law in 70 AD. I believe the millennium is still on-going and we are in it along with our brothers and sisters in Christ who have passed on to the spiritual side of the kingdom. Remember what that great prophet Sting (of "The Police") said? "We are spirits in the material world." LOL.

I totally agree that the diaspora that James and Peter were writing to the scattered tribes of Israel which did not return after Babylon. They settled in Greece, Rome and elsewhere. Thus when the disciples went out from Israel to preach, they started preaching in Jewish synagogues until the Jews threw them out, then they started Gentile/Jewish mix churches. The Orthodox Jews living in Thessalonica and elsewhere were the primary abusers of Christians up to and including during the reign of Nero. This was true in Rome and throughout the Roman Empire in the day. Jews treated Christians worse than Rome in most cases. This was especially true in Jerusalem where the church was established on Mt. Zion just south of the temple. From the time of Christ up to 70 AD, Israel became a "divided house" as Jesus called it; brother against brother, etc., all because of the Gospel. Christianity vs. Judaism. This prediction of a divided house came true after Christ as it spread throughout the Roman Empire. It would end in 70 AD with the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the temple and the "Parousia of Christ," (AKA the Second Coming). See Acts 3:20-23.

So many Jews became Christians alongside Gentiles inside and outside of Israel. During the period of 33 to 66 AD, converted Christian Jews still recognized several of their Jewish customs. They would return to Jerusalem to celebrate the three feasts that Christ recognized and celebrated Himself. Thus, they returned for Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles by the hundreds of thousands from all over the Roman Empire (just as Christ did) every year. Thus Jerusalem would swell to over 1.3 million people, both believers and unbelieving Jews flooded the city (the wheat and tares). More on this later.

Dan 7 is a key passage along with Rev 13, 14, 17-18 in understanding the timing of the millennium. By 66-68 AD, all of the original disciples had been killed (except John) as had many, many Christians both by Nero and Jews. These are the ones in heaven that John sees in Rev 7. Now the KJV does not say, "the great tribulation," rather it reads "out of great tribulation." I believe this is the same "tribulation" (small t) that Christ foretells in Mat 24:9 (NKJV). The "GREAT TRIBULATION" is the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Let's understand the 8 kings of Rev 17.

The 5 Kings which passed were the 5 kings of the Julio-Claudian dynasty; Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. We then had the Roman Civil War which lasted from June '68 to Dec '69. Then there were three short-term Caesars (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius) who never received approval of the Senate, thus were not kings as none had control over the whole beast (Roman Empire). Nero, the 5th beast who suffered a mortal wound, yet lived, was reborn under Vespasian, the Flavian Dynasty. The beast (Rome) nearly died with Nero as Rome entered a period of darkness - a bloody and brutal civil war. It wasn't until Vespasian was named Emperor that Rome's mortal wound was healed.

John was banished to Patmos under Nero (as told by the Syriac Apocalypse) and not during Domitian as eluded to by 2nd century French clergyman Irenaeus who simply got it wrong. Thus John wrote Revelation 17 during the reign of Vespasian but before Titus arrived in April 70 AD. Thus John's vision was given to him between Dec 21, 69 and April 70 AD. Revelation was written to 7 specific churches in Asia Minor, on the mainland just opposite of where John was banished. From the time John's messages were delivered, Christ indeed would return very quickly. It was at Christ's Parousia that the millennium was in full swing as the dead rose and followed the Lamb wherever He went, because He had many places to go.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Friend, there is absolutely no way for you or anyone else to know when the Lord is going to appear and gather His church, period! In addition, there is no way to know who the antichrist is, as he can't be known until he makes his seven years covenant with Israel.

We've already had someone come on this site stating that he was given information by an angel from God the Father that the ground breaking for the temple would take place this last May and of course that didn't happen, just as I told him it wouldn't.

Throughout scripture Jesus tells us to watch, for He will come like a thief, at a time we least expect Him. If we knew when He was coming, then we wouldn't have to watch.
The funny thing is we weren't told to watch, the Thessalonians were told to watch, wait and be sober. And they were to share this Epistle with all the holy brethren of their day. They were promised rest from their persecution. Did they get it or did Paul lie to them? I wonder, are they still waiting and watching?
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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The Jews only really spoke of or were concerned with two ages PL, the Mosaic age and the age of Messiah.

"This age" in which Jesus and Paul lived and "the age" to come - the "this age" that Paul and Jesus lived in was the Mosaic age which was coming to an end (see Hebrews) - the age "to come" which was already "breaking" in was the age of Messiah which are currently in.

Paul stated that the "rulers of this age" i.e. the Mosaic age were the Jews who killed the Lord Jesus:

1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;

The rules of "this age" in the above were passing away in the time of Paul and indeed did so in the destruction brought on them in 70 AD.

The Jews considered the Sanhedrin the rulers and not a foreign power:

Acts 3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.

The only conclusion is that the age of Messiah was fully established at that time, and we know from Daniel that the age/rule of Messiah never ends, so to posit an age after this is not biblically supported as Daniel states:

Dan 2:44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Dispensational "theologies" claim that the above kingdom will be established during the time of the "revived" Roman empire which is not found in the bible but an invention of poor "theology".

Jesus set up his kingdom in the days of Rome in the 1st century - a spiritual kingdom:

His rule or the age of Messiah never ends:

Luke 1:33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

The above effectively kills the idea of a "thousand year" literal millennium.

We are either in the Mosaic age (which dispensationalists claim ended at the cross) or the age of Messiah.

Get Don K. Preston's book "The Last Days Identified!".
Hello Locutus,

We are still in this present age, the same one that Paul and Jesus were in. This age will come to it's end when Jesus returns to the earth to establish His millennial kingdom and that won't happen until after God's wrath has been poured out. The next age will be the millennial kingdom of Christ on this present earth. The end of the age was not referring to the end of the Mosaic age, but when Christ physically and visually returns to the earth.

Regarding the Mosaic Law, God still has seven years that must be fulfilled with Israel and Jerusalem, which is what is coming and which will also be the same time when God pours out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. That last seven years will be initiated by that ruler, the antichrist.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS
I'm 73 and studied this off and on since I was in HS. I am a pan mill now. It will all pan out in the end. Eschatology liturature in the Bible has too much symbols to make an accurate understanding of the issue. Daniel states it is sealed until end times and Revelations has parallel scripture so the same goes for it. Therefore it is impossible to make accurate predictions based on their texts.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The funny thing is we weren't told to watch, the Thessalonians were told to watch, wait and be sober. And they were to share this Epistle with all the holy brethren of their day. They were promised rest from their persecution. Did they get it or did Paul lie to them? I wonder, are they still waiting and watching?
You are misinterpreting and misrepresenting everything.

1. Long before the epistle to the Thessalonians, Christ already told His saints to watch, wait and be sober. Read the Gospels.

2. The Thessalonians were NOT promised rest from their persecution. They were assured that those who were persecuting them would be judged and punished. When Paul said "rest with us" all he meant was rest your hearts and minds in this fact -- Christ will come to judge the unbelieving and the ungodly (including your persecutors).

3. All the Christians during the apostolic period (including the Thessalonians) were taught to look for the imminent return of Christ. That is why Paul had to also assure them that the Day of the Lord had not come and gone.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Y
You are misinterpreting and misrepresenting everything.

1. Long before the epistle to the Thessalonians, Christ already told His saints to watch, wait and be sober. Read the Gospels.

2. The Thessalonians were NOT promised rest from their persecution. They were assured that those who were persecuting them would be judged and punished. When Paul said "rest with us" all he meant was rest your hearts and minds in this fact -- Christ will come to judge the unbelieving and the ungodly (including your persecutors).

3. All the Christians during the apostolic period (including the Thessalonians) were taught to look for the imminent return of Christ. That is why Paul had to also assure them that the Day of the Lord had not come and gone.
Did you really just tell me to read the Gospels? Good one. Now you can do the same.

What does Jesus say here? He is talking to his disciples.

Mat 16: 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

For this to be a true statement, Christ would have to return before John died. And He did.

Now here's Christ talking to those who condemned Him to death.

Mat 26: 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

For this to be true, some of those wicked Jewish religious leaders needed to still be alive. Now look at this:

Mat 23: 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Which generation do you think He is talking about?? Ours, LOL!!!!! Now I'm quite certain that you know very little about first century Jewish history but there was this thing that happened in 70 AD. Jesus called it the "great tribulation" and in Mat 24 He repeats that everything would come to that generation, HIS GENERATION.

As for the Thessalonians, your view is incorrect. They were being persecuted by fellow Jews, see Acts 17. Those Jews went to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover and were trapped there when Jerusalem was surrounded, thus they died in the great tribulation. Read Josephus.
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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I'm 73 and studied this off and on since I was in HS. I am a pan mill now. It will all pan out in the end. Eschatology liturature in the Bible has too much symbols to make an accurate understanding of the issue. Daniel states it is sealed until end times and Revelations has parallel scripture so the same goes for it. Therefore it is impossible to make accurate predictions based on their texts.
The symbols used in the Bible can be understood because they are used again and again and by comparing verse with verse and types with types. People dont understand because they fail to study the OT in its entirety. God used a kind of picture language to convey his message and the same patterns occur throughout . There are some things not revealed to us but the majority are otherwise there would have been no purpose in writing it at all. When looking at any part of the bible we need to consider who it was originally written for and what those people would have understood it to mean rather than imposing a 21st Century mindset on a passage.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,371
397
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The symbols used in the Bible can be understood because they are used again and again and by comparing verse with verse and types with types. People dont understand because they fail to study the OT in its entirety. God used a kind of picture language to convey his message and the same patterns occur throughout . There are some things not revealed to us but the majority are otherwise there would have been no purpose in writing it at all. When looking at any part of the bible we need to consider who it was originally written for and what those people would have understood it to mean rather than imposing a 21st Century mindset on a passage.
Tanakh,

The book of Revelation is about the events leading up to the Lord's return to end the age.

God the Father gave this Revelation to Jesus who sent His angel to show His servants "the things that must soon take place," said events being the events of God's wrath and all related information.

The key to understanding the chronological order of events is found in Rev.1:19, when Jesus told John to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to Rev.1:19

What is now
= Represented by the letters to the churches and which represents the entire church period

What will take place later = All of the events which take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period.

That said, we are still in the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write, the church period. Once the church is completed, the Lord will descend according to His promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17 and will gather His church. Once the church has been gathered the "what must take place later" will ensue.

Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church (rapture). That voice that sounds like a trumpet is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in I Thes.4:16 when the Lord calls us up. The voice says, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," which is synonymous with "what must take place later." This is exactly why we do not see the word "church" listed anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath. After being used throughout chapters 1 thru 3, it abruptly disappears from the rest of the narrative. It is not until the epilog in Rev.22:16 that it is mentioned again. We continue to tell you this, but you continue to refuse to believe and that because of the false teachings that you've adopted and now contend for.

When one becomes convinced the Bible does not mean what it says, they sacrifice what is most important to believe in order to protect what they most want to believe.

Some day you and others will find out that we were correct regarding the truth of God's word that we have been contending for.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
2,676
150
63
Did you really just tell me to read the Gospels? Good one. Now you can do the same.

What does Jesus say here? He is talking to his disciples.

Mat 16: 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

For this to be a true statement, Christ would have to return before John died. And He did.

Now here's Christ talking to those who condemned Him to death.

Mat 26: 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

For this to be true, some of those wicked Jewish religious leaders needed to still be alive. Now look at this:

Mat 23: 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Which generation do you think He is talking about?? Ours, LOL!!!!! Now I'm quite certain that you know very little about first century Jewish history but there was this thing that happened in 70 AD. Jesus called it the "great tribulation" and in Mat 24 He repeats that everything would come to that generation, HIS GENERATION.

As for the Thessalonians, your view is incorrect. They were being persecuted by fellow Jews, see Acts 17. Those Jews went to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover and were trapped there when Jerusalem was surrounded, thus they died in the great tribulation. Read Josephus.
I don't remember seeing Jesus return or read about it in histories. He said when he returns the whole world would see it. Not just Jerusalem. So when did this happen and no one saw it happen? Upon what evidence do you make this assertion? Also according to Isaiah he will sit on the throne in Jerusalem. Where is He located in Jerusalem?