The Rapture

[PlainWord]

Can anyone reconcile the idea of a literal Millennium with Christ ruling in Jerusalem with Peters statement in 2 Peter 3:10-13..

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of god wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nervertheless we according to his promise look for a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter uses almost exactly the same language as Josephus which proves the way they talked and described things back then. The literal earth and all of its elements do not burn up, at least not from this passage. The fire from the temple and city was so big that Josephus records that the "skies were on fire."

The "earth" often times refers to Israel. Old Israel was destroyed. The righteous fled and were protected in Pella. They returned after the Romans left after Masada in 73 AD. For the next 1,000 years, Jerusalem was a predominantly Christian city living in peace except for 2-3 occasions. See Isa 65.

Peter had no concept of the periodic table. The only elements he was aware of were, fire, air, earth and water.

 

[PlainWord]

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jerusalem is Sodom to God. So apply the same template. Destroyed by fire.

stoicheîon - translated as elements, also mean Jewish ceremonial requirements, e.g. temple practices

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


So I think it means the destruction of Jerusalem by fire

YES. You are 100% correct. All anyone has to do is do an on-line key word search for "wrath" and the context is clear, it was to be the destruction of Jerusalem and the judgment of the tares. All of the below dealt with the wrath of God which came in 70 AD.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men..

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God..

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.

3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Most of the persecution of the Christians in those days were done at the hands of unbelieving Jews (except for Nero, who God dealt with in 68 AD). These wicked Jews were all gathered to Jerusalem for Passover from all over the known world and were stuck there when the Romans surrounded the city. Most were killed during the great tribulation.

 

[PlainWord]

For those that doubt that God's wrath spoken so often by the prophets dealt with the destruction of the temple, it might be useful to understand what the Jews of that day thought as they watched their temple burn. The below is from Josephus. He knew that God ordered the destruction and used the Romans to do it.

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Ab,] upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon; although these flames took their rise from the Jews themselves, and were occasioned by them; for upon Titus's retiring, the seditious lay still for a little while, and then attacked the Romans again, when those that guarded the holy house fought with those that quenched the fire that was burning the inner [court of the] temple; but these Romans put the Jews to flight, and proceeded as far as the holy house itself. At which time one of the soldiers, without staying for any orders, and without any concern or dread upon him at so great an undertaking, and being hurried on by a certain divine fury, snatched somewhat out of the materials that were on fire, and being lifted up by another soldier, he set fire to a golden window, through which there was a passage to the rooms that were round about the holy house, on the north side of it. As the flames went upward, the Jews made a great clamor, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered any thing to restrain their force, since that holy house was perishing, for whose sake it was that they kept such a guard about it.

 

[VCO]

Peter uses almost exactly the same language as Josephus which proves the way they talked and described things back then. The literal earth and all of its elements do not burn up, at least not from this passage. The fire from the temple and city was so big that Josephus records that the "skies were on fire."

The "earth" often times refers to Israel. Old Israel was destroyed. The righteous fled and were protected in Pella. They returned after the Romans left after Masada in 73 AD. For the next 1,000 years, Jerusalem was a predominantly Christian city living in peace except for 2-3 occasions. See Isa 65.

Peter had no concept of the periodic table. The only elements he was aware of were, fire, air, earth and water.

Do you realize how few people think like you do or accept the kind of theology you claim to believe?

Are you sure you are not playing mind games with us?


[video=youtube;NzlG28B-R8Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y[/video]

 

[PlainWord]

READY TO GET BLOWN AWAY??

Okay, now let's take a deeper dive into the language used in their day. An important word to understand is "works." Works is not "deeds" as most of us might think but rather "works" was the temple itself.

Again, quoting Josephus:

WHILE the holy house was on fire, every thing was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity, but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting. The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire. Nor can one imagine any thing either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamor of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword.

So now look again at 2 Peter 3:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up...

Translation? The "earth" is Jerusalem and the "works" are the temple. Therefore Peter is telling us that the city and the temple will be destroyed with fervent heat. Josephus also tells us that its destruction will be with a "GREAT NOISE" just as Peter predicted.

Another key word in understanding much of prophesy including 2 Pet 3 is "earth."

Isa 62: And give Him no rest till He establishes And till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Lam 2: How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

All who pass by clap their hands at you; They hiss and shake their heads At the daughter of Jerusalem: “Is this the city that is called ‘The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth’?”

While we are at it, let's see if "heaven" is also related to "earth" and "Jerusalem." Heaven can also mean sky.

1 Chr 21: Then David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, having in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem. So David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell on their faces.

Let's not forget Gal 4:

but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

So when Jerusalem was utterly destroyed in 70 AD, the "heavens and earth" passed away.

 

[PlainWord]

Do you realize how few people think like you do or accept the kind of theology you claim to believe?

Are you sure you are not playing mind games with us?


[video=youtube;NzlG28B-R8Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y[/video]

Count your blessings dear brother that you are among the few to finally be exposed to the truth.

 

[PlainWord]

BTW, "DAY OF THE LORD" simply means "divine judgment of the Lord." This phrase is used several times relative to other judgments such as Egypt, Babylon, Edom and finally Jerusalem.

 

[Issachar92]

I swear if I hear 70A.D. or Josephus again...

 

[J7]

No man knows the hour or day, but this has to be a strong contender. Jerusalem Gay Pride Day.

Unknown in AD70 to Josephus.

 

[J7]

[VIDEO=youtube;5RUIY5t_cRI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RUIY5t_cRI[/VIDEO]

 

[Issachar92]

No man knows the hour or day, but this has to be a strong contender. Jerusalem Gay Pride Day.

Unknown in AD70 to Josephus.

Yes Israel is wicked. No one is denying it, Lord brought em back before its gon happen again Romans 11:25-26

 

[Burninglight]

And those "Last Days" ended in 70 or 73 AD. It has been as long since then as it was prior to then for the nation of Israel. For the "last days" to still apply to us, it would have made the days of Christ like "half time." Clearly they were not living at half time but were well inside the 2 minute warning. They maybe had time for 1-2 more plays before game over (complete and utter destruction of their world as they knew it).

Read 1 Thes, the whole book without stopping to get the flavor. Read it with the idea that the end of their age was coming in 70 AD and see if it rings true.

I agree with KJV1611. The last days began with Christ and didn't end in 70 AD. I agree with him even though I don't believe the KJV1611 is the best version of the Bible.

 

[J7]

Yes Israel is wicked. No one is denying it, Lord brought em back before its gon happen again Romans 11:25-26

[FONT=&quot]31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The Church is global. Any person following Judaism can find a local church anywhere in the world, accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and be regrafted back into Israel. It's so simple. Maybe too simple.

Here in Spain they have even revoked the 1492 expulsion. Sephardic Jews can come (back) to a Christian land. (And a much safer land than Israel)[/FONT]

 

[Burninglight]

READY TO GET BLOWN AWAY??

Okay, now let's take a deeper dive into the language used in their day. An important word to understand is "works." Works is not "deeds" as most of us might think but rather "works" was the temple itself.

Again, quoting Josephus:

WHILE the holy house was on fire, every thing was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity, but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting. The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire. Nor can one imagine any thing either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamor of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword.

So now look again at 2 Peter 3:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up...

Translation? The "earth" is Jerusalem and the "works" are the temple. Therefore Peter is telling us that the city and the temple will be destroyed with fervent heat. Josephus also tells us that its destruction will be with a "GREAT NOISE" just as Peter predicted.

Another key word in understanding much of prophesy including 2 Pet 3 is "earth."

Isa 62: And give Him no rest till He establishes And till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Lam 2: How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

All who pass by clap their hands at you; They hiss and shake their heads At the daughter of Jerusalem: “Is this the city that is called ‘The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth’?”

While we are at it, let's see if "heaven" is also related to "earth" and "Jerusalem." Heaven can also mean sky.

1 Chr 21: Then David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, having in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem. So David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell on their faces.

Let's not forget Gal 4:

but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

So when Jerusalem was utterly destroyed in 70 AD, the "heavens and earth" passed away.

Often God does one thing as a type and shadow before he does the real thing on a mass or permanent scale. Isaiah 7: 14 Matthew attributes that prophecy to the virgin birth of Jesus, but that prophecy was fulfilled 750 years before Christ's birth which showed what God was to do with His Word becoming flesh through a virgin. We are very deep into the last days. I would say the very last of the last days. read Matthew 24 and see the signs of today and match it. Your believe does sound like the Twilight Zone.

 

[Burninglight]

Biblical History started 6000 years ago as far as we can tell. The Scripture states that one day is as a thousand years and one thousand years as one day to the Lord. God creation took 6 six days and on the 7 day He rested. Could the last thousand years be the rule and reign of Christ with the saints where he rested?

 

[VCO]

So amidst all of this arguing I would like to ask all the Historic Premillennial believers how do they reconcile Jerusalem being such a big part of the 7 year tribulation (Still looking for this in the Bible) yet many of them are Supersessionists?

The THIRD Temple will be built either in Jerusalem or the City of David a suburb. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTSCQgZirts
Satan has always wanted to be like GOD, so when he possesses that Dictator to become the Antichrist. HE tricks Israel into a 7 year Peace Treaty, and they build the Third Temple. Antichrist takes over the Temple, (probably excecuting the Priests), puts His throne in the Holy of Holies, proclaiming that now HE is GOD. And that anyone who will not worship him as GOD, and take his mark of Allegiance, will be beheaded on the spot. Antichrist starts WWIII, most likely a full scale Nuclear War, that triggers numerous natural disasters, sickness and plagues after the battles are over. Antichrist does miracles to Validate he is GOD; and a HUGE number of people fall for it, forgetting that Satan empowered Pharaoh's magicians to do miracles. The Main part of why they fall for Satan's tricks is GOD justly judging their unbelief gives them a strong dillusion so that they WILL BELIEVE THE LIE. The Two Witnesses have the power to cause NO RAIN TO FALL on the Unbelievers. That plus the WOES, BOWLS, and TRUMPET JUDGEMENTS add even more reasons to put an end to the Jews that they hate and STOP JESUS from coming back, The Mount of Olives is where HE prophecied HIS RETURN TO BE. WHY JERUSALEM? Because HE prophecied it would happen around and IN JERUSALEM, therefore HE WILL CARRY OUT HIS WILL TO THE LETTER, because GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY GOD.

You can look up the verses for yourself, or read all my previous posts. To get you started, read all of these chapters: Zechariah 14, Jer. 30, Rev. 19, Rev. 6 (I believe the Prophecy about the RED HORSE is WWIII), Mat. 25, and 2 Thess. 2. The 70th Week of Daniel is that week of Years that is also that deceiving Peace Treaty, the Great Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, and the WEDDING OF THE LAMB in Heaven for True Believers that are part of the Bride of Christ.

 

[KJV1611]

I can't believe there are still those who think this is future to us. Peter was quoting Joel because the spirit had just been poured out on them fulfilling Joel 2. Peter recognized that they were in the "last days" (of their age, the Jewish Age, Mosaic Age). The utter destruction of their country and its desolation was the main event spoken of by the prophets.

Acts 2, Joel 2, Mat 24, Mark 13, Luk 21, Rev 6 ALL DEALT WITH 70 AD DESOLATION OF ISRAEL

I don't think all of it has happened but 99% has. I still believe there will be a rapture, second coming and milennial reign.

 

[VCO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RUIY5t_cRI

You obviously do not know who Louis Farrakhan is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kraz1gezg_c

 

[KJV1611]

And those "Last Days" ended in 70 or 73 AD. It has been as long since then as it was prior to then for the nation of Israel. For the "last days" to still apply to us, it would have made the days of Christ like "half time." Clearly they were not living at half time but were well inside the 2 minute warning. They maybe had time for 1-2 more plays before game over (complete and utter destruction of their world as they knew it).

Read 1 Thes, the whole book without stopping to get the flavor. Read it with the idea that the end of their age was coming in 70 AD and see if it rings true.

I agree and would add Joel and the rest of the "minor" prophets.

 

[VCO]

I don't think all of it has happened but 99% has. I still believe there will be a rapture, second coming and milennial reign.

You got that 100% backwards.