The rapture
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C
BLU,
This is a serious error, Christians are not saved "jews" and Jesus Christ is not the promise given to the "Jews".
John 7:1
"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill Him."
Matt. 4:15
"The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles."
You see A "Jew" is named such from the Chaldee word Yehuwdiy which is a derogatory term, from the Chaldean language of Babylon it means 'subject of Judah', because the Edomites were conquered by David they became subject slaves of the land of Judah, but when the the House of Judah was taken into captivity, the "Jews" remained and usurped, they took control in the absence of the House of Judah. Jesus Christ was born amongst the remant of Judah and dwelt in lands outside of Judea, because they had lost their land to "Jews"- people of the land! They were not of the House of Judah, they were the subjects of Judah.
This is a serious error, Christians are not saved "jews" and Jesus Christ is not the promise given to the "Jews".
John 7:1
"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill Him."
Matt. 4:15
"The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles."
You see A "Jew" is named such from the Chaldee word Yehuwdiy which is a derogatory term, from the Chaldean language of Babylon it means 'subject of Judah', because the Edomites were conquered by David they became subject slaves of the land of Judah, but when the the House of Judah was taken into captivity, the "Jews" remained and usurped, they took control in the absence of the House of Judah. Jesus Christ was born amongst the remant of Judah and dwelt in lands outside of Judea, because they had lost their land to "Jews"- people of the land! They were not of the House of Judah, they were the subjects of Judah.
Jesus is the down line of Abraham, all descendants of Abraham are Jews. and the promise of salvation, read the beginning chronolgy. Jesus was the promise, jesus was the sabbath. You have your mind into to much talk and not enough proofs.
Jesus was the promised messiah mentioned in Isaiah
Mt 15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The need for details as to what the name Jew means is irrelevant unless you are trying to make a point.
Paul tells us this in Romans,: (Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(Rom 2:29) But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
So therefore, Christians are Jews in the sense that we are also grafted into Abraham as a decendant.
Hope you do not think me being to harsh on you, but truth must be truey spoken by scripture.
Jesus was the promised messiah mentioned in Isaiah
Mt 15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The need for details as to what the name Jew means is irrelevant unless you are trying to make a point. Paul tells us this in Romans,: (Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(Rom 2:29) But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
So therefore, Christians are Jews in the sense that we are also grafted into Abraham as a decendant.
Hope you do not think me being to harsh on you, but truth must be truey spoken by scripture.
C
That is simply false. Jesus identified the "Jews" as the seed of Abraham through Esau;
John 8:39-42
'They (Jews) answered and said unto Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus saith unto them, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man That hath told you the Truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham., ye do the deed of your father."
Then they said unto Him "we be not born of fornication; we have one Father even God."
Jesus said unto them "If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceed forth and come from God; neither come I of Myself but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? even because you cannot hear My word Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do, he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh in him: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
The "Jews" of the land of Judea were Herodian Edomites decended from Esau and his 5 Canaanite wives, the children of the devil as Cain's seed was there, The Edomite "Jews" were Abraham's seed by Esau but they inherited the devil's seed via Esau's Canaanite wives, thus their father was not Abraham but the devil was their father, for they could not be the children of Abraham, because they did not do the works of Abraham.
That's right the House of Israel are a people not a modern geographical location, all of the House of Israel was saved just as Jesus said, that is prophecised By Jeremiah and confirmed in the Book of Hebrews 8:8-12. A "Jew" is a subject of the land of Judea, the House of Israel and the House of Judah are two Royal families, they are a people that were to be saved by God, and they were, they are now Christians, the "Jews" are the "Synagogue of Satan" Rev. 2:9 - Christ killers, liars, usurpers and vipers, nothing can save them from Hell!
I am making the point a Yehuwdiy is a Chaldee name - it means 'subject of the land of Judah, Esau's decendants were to serve Jacob/Israel, the older to serve the younger but God prophecised that they "Jews" would usurp and they have.
Paul is preaching to Romans, because of this difficulty of the usurpers - those pretending to be of the House of Judah and they are not, or Judeans that are subjects of Judah, but not literal decendants of Judah, so how do you tell? which one is a true Judahite and which one is false, who are the true Judeans Ioudaios and who are the false Judeans Ioudaios... Paul is preaching that the Christian with the circumcised heart is the real actual decendant of Judah, the false Judean is the one who is outwardly pretending to be, he calls himself Ioudaios but he is not. The word "Jew" of course is only 200 years old, Ioudaios means Judean in a geographical sense.
John 8:39-42
'They (Jews) answered and said unto Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus saith unto them, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man That hath told you the Truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham., ye do the deed of your father."
Then they said unto Him "we be not born of fornication; we have one Father even God."
Jesus said unto them "If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceed forth and come from God; neither come I of Myself but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? even because you cannot hear My word Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do, he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh in him: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
The "Jews" of the land of Judea were Herodian Edomites decended from Esau and his 5 Canaanite wives, the children of the devil as Cain's seed was there, The Edomite "Jews" were Abraham's seed by Esau but they inherited the devil's seed via Esau's Canaanite wives, thus their father was not Abraham but the devil was their father, for they could not be the children of Abraham, because they did not do the works of Abraham.
Jesus was the promised messiah mentioned in Isaiah Mt 15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mt 15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
I am making the point a Yehuwdiy is a Chaldee name - it means 'subject of the land of Judah, Esau's decendants were to serve Jacob/Israel, the older to serve the younger but God prophecised that they "Jews" would usurp and they have.
Paul is preaching to Romans, because of this difficulty of the usurpers - those pretending to be of the House of Judah and they are not, or Judeans that are subjects of Judah, but not literal decendants of Judah, so how do you tell? which one is a true Judahite and which one is false, who are the true Judeans Ioudaios and who are the false Judeans Ioudaios... Paul is preaching that the Christian with the circumcised heart is the real actual decendant of Judah, the false Judean is the one who is outwardly pretending to be, he calls himself Ioudaios but he is not. The word "Jew" of course is only 200 years old, Ioudaios means Judean in a geographical sense.
(2Kgs 16:5) Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome [him].
(2Kgs 16:6) At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews/ yehuwfiy from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.
The Jews that Jesus came to save and the ones he spke to were the original jews, and they would have discarded any that were not true Jews as the did after they were allowed to rebuild the walls of jerusalem. Jesus spoke to them on this manner because jesus knew the father had divorced them because of their refusal to obey God/backsliders. And not that they were edomites. You even claimed Jesus was from edomites, you are saddley mistaken. (Mt 1:16) And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Check it out beginning in Mt. The only true Jews that were saved were the 7000 remnant. So here is the house of judea , One tribe that are true jews, as was said earlier they got rid of any man that did not give up his foreign wife. (1Kgs 11:35) But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, [even] ten tribes.
(1Kgs 11:36) And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
This is all that was saved out of israel, and that was before jesus came to earth: (1Kgs 19:18) Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. (Isa 10:22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, [yet] a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. Judeah also had a remnant, but not all judeah. (Zeph 2:7) And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah; they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the Lord their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity.
The true jews that repented through john the baptist and many others were grafted in, they were not the edomite, because as I said, Christ said he was sent to the house of Israel the lost sheep . Stop trying to make a square block fit into a round hole. You are merely confused because of that. And every point you are trying to make is not essential to the gospel, But the essential message of the gospel is to "go ye into the world baptizing them in the name of the father and son and holy ghost." Stop making mountains out of moehills.
Romans 2:28 is telling us that that you do not have to be born into OT Israel to be a jew, All Christians that are true believers are jews.
And the people in Rev that called themselves Jews were OT jews but the ones that were not grafted into christ. Just wolves in sheep's clothing trying to overthrow the christian way. They have nothing to do with the house of Judea because the house of judea was divorced by god,
Here is another example that God did not separate them and that both were unsaved, but for the remnant. (Eze 23:4) And the names of them [were] Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus [were] their names; Samaria [is] Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
(2Kgs 16:6) At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews/ yehuwfiy from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.
The Jews that Jesus came to save and the ones he spke to were the original jews, and they would have discarded any that were not true Jews as the did after they were allowed to rebuild the walls of jerusalem. Jesus spoke to them on this manner because jesus knew the father had divorced them because of their refusal to obey God/backsliders. And not that they were edomites. You even claimed Jesus was from edomites, you are saddley mistaken. (Mt 1:16) And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Check it out beginning in Mt. The only true Jews that were saved were the 7000 remnant. So here is the house of judea , One tribe that are true jews, as was said earlier they got rid of any man that did not give up his foreign wife. (1Kgs 11:35) But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, [even] ten tribes.
(1Kgs 11:36) And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
This is all that was saved out of israel, and that was before jesus came to earth: (1Kgs 19:18) Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. (Isa 10:22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, [yet] a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. Judeah also had a remnant, but not all judeah. (Zeph 2:7) And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah; they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the Lord their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity.
The true jews that repented through john the baptist and many others were grafted in, they were not the edomite, because as I said, Christ said he was sent to the house of Israel the lost sheep . Stop trying to make a square block fit into a round hole. You are merely confused because of that. And every point you are trying to make is not essential to the gospel, But the essential message of the gospel is to "go ye into the world baptizing them in the name of the father and son and holy ghost." Stop making mountains out of moehills.
Romans 2:28 is telling us that that you do not have to be born into OT Israel to be a jew, All Christians that are true believers are jews.
And the people in Rev that called themselves Jews were OT jews but the ones that were not grafted into christ. Just wolves in sheep's clothing trying to overthrow the christian way. They have nothing to do with the house of Judea because the house of judea was divorced by god,
Here is another example that God did not separate them and that both were unsaved, but for the remnant. (Eze 23:4) And the names of them [were] Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus [were] their names; Samaria [is] Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
Again, Jew is of the tribe of judea, I agree, but that does not include all Jews were saved. If you remember that God kept for tribe of judea for David's sake, and he also tells us that David will reign who is Jesus. (2Tim 2:8) Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
David was likened unto Jesus: (Lk 18:38) And he cried, saying, Jesus, [thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
(Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(Rom 2:29) But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. So then we are Jews in the sense that we are sons of david also.
(Rev 3:7) And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
(Jn 7:42) Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
David was likened unto Jesus: (Lk 18:38) And he cried, saying, Jesus, [thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
(Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(Rom 2:29) But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. So then we are Jews in the sense that we are sons of david also.
(Rev 3:7) And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
(Jn 7:42) Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
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A 7 year tribulation period is derived from this verse of Daniel where the anti-Christ forms a covenant with Israel:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It is not until the mid-point of the 7 year period (3.5 years) that the anti-Christ sets himself up in the Temple, and that's when the intense period of tribulation starts for 3.5 years. See:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Strictly speaking I dont' think much tribulation happens in the first 3.5 years but that is still counted as part of the whole tribulation period.
Now, remember these numbers, 7, etc are rich in symbolism but are not chronologically precise. It may not be exactly 3.5 or 7 years, but 8.5 or 13.5 years or something like that.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It is not until the mid-point of the 7 year period (3.5 years) that the anti-Christ sets himself up in the Temple, and that's when the intense period of tribulation starts for 3.5 years. See:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Strictly speaking I dont' think much tribulation happens in the first 3.5 years but that is still counted as part of the whole tribulation period.
Now, remember these numbers, 7, etc are rich in symbolism but are not chronologically precise. It may not be exactly 3.5 or 7 years, but 8.5 or 13.5 years or something like that.
J
Amillenianial understanding: 9:27 he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. Advocates of the first-advent view understand that “Messiah” will “confirm a covenant,” that is, live out His public ministry. END OF SACRIFICE According to Amils ( this refers to the termination of the Old Testament sacrificial system brought about by the death of Christ. According to the first-advent view ) this describes the destruction of Jerusalem that occurred in a.d. 70. Phrases similar to “an abomination that makes desolate” occur in Dan. 8:13; 11:31; 12:11 (notes) as well as 1 Macc. 1:54. Dan. 8:13 and 1 Macc. 1:54 are clearly references to the activities of Antiochus IV. Jesus refers to this “abomination” in His prophecy of events yet future (Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14). This means not that prophecy is necessarily always a one-time fulfillment but rather a historical-redemptive circular approach that there are always anti-christs and abomination (the events of the destruction of the 2nd temple, pope, ect...) of desolations that happen. Jesus said that His followers would always have tribulations on earth and at the same time the Church would never fail! I find this much more consistent with the text than assuming weeks= years (how you get that take so many assumptions) and trying to jam the entire book of revelation into one verse in the middle of daniel.
L
This has been a very enlightening thread. I've not heard anyone say that they don't believe in pre/mid or post-trib rapture. Despite all three being brand spanking new.
Not to credit the pre-tribbers but atleast in regards to the rapture theology, the pre-tribbers were the first to hit the scene. The mid/post folks didn't show up until quite recently.
Post rapture is the closest thing to anything I subscribe to. The word rapture itself just seems like bad theology. Here you have a new believer and if you're trying to explain rapture to him are you really going to tell him that before Jesus marries the Church, he's going to rapture the bride? I almost feel like I should pray for forgiveness even for bringing it up!
Doesn't it strike anyone that the rapture, in terms of it's theology, was never actually in print until 1909? Not only is it interesting that the argument is so passionate but that some of the posters haven't even heard of the likes of Hal Lindsey, Darby, John T. Walvoord and or realize what kind of impact Cyris Scofield has had on the perpetuation of this "doctrine". Not to mention the fact that this doctrine has mutated faster and in more ways than the Swine Flu.
If I told you that there was some guy that cracked some code in the bible by re-arranging bible verses and taking certain verses and putting an interpretational twist on those verses (which have to be taken out of context and applied to the narrative of the doctrine, which isn't actually in the bible) would you buy it? Of course it's going to be biblical. Even Satan was biblical. He took out bible verses and used them against our Lord. So, the fact that it's "biblical" should not be enough to persuade you.
I'm not Roman Catholic or anything but isn't that one of the biggest complaints people make against the Roman Catholics? They introduce teachings of man. They introduced traditions of man. They think their Pope is supreme and even, sometimes, infallible. Yet, here we have one of example of a bunch of conflicting doctrines which all can't be right. So someone on this thread has believed the teachings of man. This rapture tradition has in fact come from a man. Now, maybe God inspired Darby, opened his eyes and he then proceeded to transmit this revelation to his fellow followers and then after the denominations purchased Darby's writings and those who believed Darby then sold their books to spread this new version of the good news. Do these individuals consider their interpretation to be supreme? Are some of you so entrenched to say that your interpretation on the rapture is even infallible? Have the protestants become like popes? Each individual deciding what is True and good apart from the body of believers?
This is how tradition works, yeah? You learn something (in this case, from the Scofield books and those that followed) and you then teach your followers/friends. And then those followers teach other followers and some of those followers add onto the theology and then it mutates and so on and so forth until you get a generation of followers that have no clue where this rapture stuff even came from. Darby who???? They stare blindly at their bible insisting that it's right there in the Holy Scriptures. However, if someone who has never heard of the rapture were to read the bible, they would never (unless they were Darby) even think to come up with this doctrine.
(insert red flag emoticon)
Does it not strike anyone as strange that we are not so passionate about the second coming as we are about this rapture business. That since the introduction of the rapture, the focus has been taken off the resurrection and put on the rapture. Some say, well it's the same. But it is not. Rapture is fixated on that teeny tiny little verse about being caught up in the air. How many of us are savvy to the ancient apocalyptic language that the various sects of Judaism employed that put certain phrases in Revelation and Daniel in context?
If we miss context, then those verses often become like putty in our hands. We mold what we will with them. Or we allow modernity to color the context of the verse. Have we really lost all touch with the roots of Christian thought? Is it no longer tolerable to accept that some of these prophecies are just not for the taking right now..
James 3:1
[ Taming the Tongue ] Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
My point in posting James 3:1 is that not all of you can be right and it's even possible that anyone that even believes in the rapture is wrong. However, this doesn't seem to give anyone pause, let alone curb tongues. If you're trying to make a pre/mid/post-trib case, then you are teaching. If you are teaching there's a strong possibility that you might be judged more strictly, at least in regards to the rapture. Pretend you were actually sitting in front of God (though you are) and each one of you present your case on rapture theology. You better know your stuff inside and out. You had better be so spot on that your listeners won't even make their case. Personally, I see no trouble in walking forward and saying to the Lord, I only believe in your coming, and I hope that I can watch! my life, that I live correctly before you, that it might not take me as a thief in the night. I can only hope that a comment like that might not harm my soul.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
John 17:15
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
John 17:20-23
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
If we focus on unity in Him instead of this pre/mid/post trib rapture business, we might just start looking like the Christians that Christ himself prayed for.
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Not to credit the pre-tribbers but atleast in regards to the rapture theology, the pre-tribbers were the first to hit the scene. The mid/post folks didn't show up until quite recently.
Post rapture is the closest thing to anything I subscribe to. The word rapture itself just seems like bad theology. Here you have a new believer and if you're trying to explain rapture to him are you really going to tell him that before Jesus marries the Church, he's going to rapture the bride? I almost feel like I should pray for forgiveness even for bringing it up!
Doesn't it strike anyone that the rapture, in terms of it's theology, was never actually in print until 1909? Not only is it interesting that the argument is so passionate but that some of the posters haven't even heard of the likes of Hal Lindsey, Darby, John T. Walvoord and or realize what kind of impact Cyris Scofield has had on the perpetuation of this "doctrine". Not to mention the fact that this doctrine has mutated faster and in more ways than the Swine Flu.
If I told you that there was some guy that cracked some code in the bible by re-arranging bible verses and taking certain verses and putting an interpretational twist on those verses (which have to be taken out of context and applied to the narrative of the doctrine, which isn't actually in the bible) would you buy it? Of course it's going to be biblical. Even Satan was biblical. He took out bible verses and used them against our Lord. So, the fact that it's "biblical" should not be enough to persuade you.
I'm not Roman Catholic or anything but isn't that one of the biggest complaints people make against the Roman Catholics? They introduce teachings of man. They introduced traditions of man. They think their Pope is supreme and even, sometimes, infallible. Yet, here we have one of example of a bunch of conflicting doctrines which all can't be right. So someone on this thread has believed the teachings of man. This rapture tradition has in fact come from a man. Now, maybe God inspired Darby, opened his eyes and he then proceeded to transmit this revelation to his fellow followers and then after the denominations purchased Darby's writings and those who believed Darby then sold their books to spread this new version of the good news. Do these individuals consider their interpretation to be supreme? Are some of you so entrenched to say that your interpretation on the rapture is even infallible? Have the protestants become like popes? Each individual deciding what is True and good apart from the body of believers?
This is how tradition works, yeah? You learn something (in this case, from the Scofield books and those that followed) and you then teach your followers/friends. And then those followers teach other followers and some of those followers add onto the theology and then it mutates and so on and so forth until you get a generation of followers that have no clue where this rapture stuff even came from. Darby who???? They stare blindly at their bible insisting that it's right there in the Holy Scriptures. However, if someone who has never heard of the rapture were to read the bible, they would never (unless they were Darby) even think to come up with this doctrine.
(insert red flag emoticon)
Does it not strike anyone as strange that we are not so passionate about the second coming as we are about this rapture business. That since the introduction of the rapture, the focus has been taken off the resurrection and put on the rapture. Some say, well it's the same. But it is not. Rapture is fixated on that teeny tiny little verse about being caught up in the air. How many of us are savvy to the ancient apocalyptic language that the various sects of Judaism employed that put certain phrases in Revelation and Daniel in context?
If we miss context, then those verses often become like putty in our hands. We mold what we will with them. Or we allow modernity to color the context of the verse. Have we really lost all touch with the roots of Christian thought? Is it no longer tolerable to accept that some of these prophecies are just not for the taking right now..
James 3:1
[ Taming the Tongue ] Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
My point in posting James 3:1 is that not all of you can be right and it's even possible that anyone that even believes in the rapture is wrong. However, this doesn't seem to give anyone pause, let alone curb tongues. If you're trying to make a pre/mid/post-trib case, then you are teaching. If you are teaching there's a strong possibility that you might be judged more strictly, at least in regards to the rapture. Pretend you were actually sitting in front of God (though you are) and each one of you present your case on rapture theology. You better know your stuff inside and out. You had better be so spot on that your listeners won't even make their case. Personally, I see no trouble in walking forward and saying to the Lord, I only believe in your coming, and I hope that I can watch! my life, that I live correctly before you, that it might not take me as a thief in the night. I can only hope that a comment like that might not harm my soul.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
John 17:15
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
John 17:20-23
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
If we focus on unity in Him instead of this pre/mid/post trib rapture business, we might just start looking like the Christians that Christ himself prayed for.
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Wisests words as of yet. I bow my head to your wisdom. Only God judges, we shall not pass judgement on others.
L
After having read through this entire thing I can come to one simple conclusion. To many people claim to have the one correct answer because they can "interpret" or "twist" scripture to fit their own needs. Be they clearly antisemitic or just "I'm right because I say so and I believe so."
Personally I feel you have all missed the point. God is love and compassion. Do you really think you are going to argue your way into heaven? Do you think you can get into heaven by twisting the words of scripture and casting doom and gloom upon everyone else?
If you are right well good for you, you'll clearly reach heaven and me with most of humanity will take the fastlane to hell. But you know what? I'll take my chances with following what Jesus thought about love and compassion. I'm quite certain that whether he was a Jew or not he was still nice and respectful towards them. If I'll end up burning in hell for my choice as least I know I wasn't a forumtroll.
Not that any of this is in anyway relevant. Jesus is the son of God, not the son of man, He is neither Jew, Roman or Egyptian. If he had a passport I'm pretty sure the son of God would qualify to get him past even the thoughest of officials.
Personally I feel you have all missed the point. God is love and compassion. Do you really think you are going to argue your way into heaven? Do you think you can get into heaven by twisting the words of scripture and casting doom and gloom upon everyone else?
If you are right well good for you, you'll clearly reach heaven and me with most of humanity will take the fastlane to hell. But you know what? I'll take my chances with following what Jesus thought about love and compassion. I'm quite certain that whether he was a Jew or not he was still nice and respectful towards them. If I'll end up burning in hell for my choice as least I know I wasn't a forumtroll.
Not that any of this is in anyway relevant. Jesus is the son of God, not the son of man, He is neither Jew, Roman or Egyptian. If he had a passport I'm pretty sure the son of God would qualify to get him past even the thoughest of officials.
Y
To Lindqvist: We are not here to talk about that topic. The topic is pre tib or post trib rapture. so you responding to a post that someone else made to take the focus off the topic is just as bad as posting something off topic yourself.
The rapture is post-tribulation. The devil pushed that doctrine through the CHristian church just like he did with the prosperity movement. Satan is not worried about the worldly and carnal people. He's only worried about the people that follow the truth or are seeking it. That is why there is so much false teaching. All of this just to shake people's faith. The belief in a pre-trib rapture gives you a complacent spirit and allows you to focus on what's important to you and your life. All you have to do is love Jesus and one day you will just be sitting in your car and you'll be raptured up. With that doctrine, a lot of Christians are going to accept the mark of the beast and will rationalize it by saying "God doesn't want me to suffer" or "This can't be the mar of the beast because, the Antichrist has not been revealed yet. In the same Bible we read. it says that Satan is a cunning deciever, he's smarter than all of us, especially because he's been around a looong time and is very determined to destroy the saints of the Most High. Also, the scripture says that there were already in Paul's time, MANY ANTICHRISTS. An antichrist is a spirit that goes against Christ or tries to put itself in the place of Christ. Let's not be complacent. NOBODY HERE HAS BEEN SAVED. "He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" "And they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you; and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Simple as that, Christ came to tell us that we will go through diverse tests and temptations and tribulations because we hold to his testimony and walk his walk. If ye were of the world, the world would love it's own, but because ye are not of the world and I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Pre-trib is for those who think Christ's walk is easy and don't think that Christ would let them go through any kind of trouble. Post-trib is for those who understand that the walk of Christ is that of sacrifice and that we will go through many trials and tribulations and will even lose family members and loved ones for his name's sake; they also know that they will be hated and persecuted for Christ's name, but even through all this they will FIGHT to KEEP the COMMANDMENTS and hold true to the testimony of Christ. Shalom
The rapture is post-tribulation. The devil pushed that doctrine through the CHristian church just like he did with the prosperity movement. Satan is not worried about the worldly and carnal people. He's only worried about the people that follow the truth or are seeking it. That is why there is so much false teaching. All of this just to shake people's faith. The belief in a pre-trib rapture gives you a complacent spirit and allows you to focus on what's important to you and your life. All you have to do is love Jesus and one day you will just be sitting in your car and you'll be raptured up. With that doctrine, a lot of Christians are going to accept the mark of the beast and will rationalize it by saying "God doesn't want me to suffer" or "This can't be the mar of the beast because, the Antichrist has not been revealed yet. In the same Bible we read. it says that Satan is a cunning deciever, he's smarter than all of us, especially because he's been around a looong time and is very determined to destroy the saints of the Most High. Also, the scripture says that there were already in Paul's time, MANY ANTICHRISTS. An antichrist is a spirit that goes against Christ or tries to put itself in the place of Christ. Let's not be complacent. NOBODY HERE HAS BEEN SAVED. "He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" "And they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you; and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Simple as that, Christ came to tell us that we will go through diverse tests and temptations and tribulations because we hold to his testimony and walk his walk. If ye were of the world, the world would love it's own, but because ye are not of the world and I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Pre-trib is for those who think Christ's walk is easy and don't think that Christ would let them go through any kind of trouble. Post-trib is for those who understand that the walk of Christ is that of sacrifice and that we will go through many trials and tribulations and will even lose family members and loved ones for his name's sake; they also know that they will be hated and persecuted for Christ's name, but even through all this they will FIGHT to KEEP the COMMANDMENTS and hold true to the testimony of Christ. Shalom
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