The Rapture?

watchmen · Nov 19, 2009

There is no reason for you or anyone else to think this is two events. You tell me who many 2nd comings will there be? Will there be more to one future coming of Christ.

Definition_Christ · Nov 19, 2009

watchmen said:

One event is the rapture. One event is Christ returning to earth.

watchmen · Nov 19, 2009

Definition_Christ said:

Ok, I can agree with that but 1st Thess 4:15-17 Which has been posted multiple time to no avail it seems) says the rapture is at the coming of Christ. Two events which happen at the same time.

You can add the resurrection of the just restoration of the Jews, and destruction of the wicked to the list of events that occur as Christ is returning immediately after the Tribulation. This is what scripture says, and to believe otherwise is to deny scripture.

But for this discussion.... Does or does not 1st Thess 4:13-18 say that the rapture is at Christ's coming? And if so, how many 2nd comings or future coming of Christ will there be?

Definition_Christ · Nov 19, 2009

watchmen said:

Two events that happen at the same time? 1 Thes 4 is talking about the rapture.. and matthew 24 is talking about the second coming of Christ... He will stay on earth for 1,000 years.
there is one more coming of Christ to earth

watchmen · Nov 19, 2009

Definition_Christ said:

Yet once again you ignore the fact that 11st Thess 4:13-18 says that the rapture occurs at the coming of Christ.

Why is this something you refuse to admit? It is right there in the passage.

1 Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Look at verse 15 this whole passage is set at the coming of Christ.

watchmen · Nov 19, 2009

Definition_Christ said:

That is NOT what the Bible says.

You will not find anywhere in scripture that says that there is more than one future coming of Christ or that there is a coming in the air between His ascension, and return. You will search in vain to find it. Man has made this idea up because they refuse to believe god's word.

Definition_Christ · Nov 19, 2009

watchmen said:

I meant.. there is one more coming of Christ... His second coming... His return to Earth.....

the rapture isn't a return to earth or a return at all just a gathering.

watchmen · Nov 19, 2009

Definition_Christ said:

But it occur at His coming via 1 Thess 4

1 Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Look at verse 15 this whole passage is set at the coming of Christ.

I believe that Paul is telling the truth when he says that the gathering of the saints, dead and alive, occurs at Christ's return. Do you believe Paul was wrong?

shrone · Nov 20, 2009

watchmen said:

hahahhahah...thnx for your opinion watchmen

greatkraw · Nov 20, 2009

shrone said:

And even more more yea yea, I am even more righter even than they yea.

Gabriel777 · Nov 20, 2009

Rapture should be an irrelevant subject for the believer, whether he is coming or not it shouldn't matter because either way our home is in heaven. We should all focus on purifying ourselves and feeding the poor and clothing the naked and preaching the gospel. Not stupid quarrels about some man-made doctrine that divides people, just like Satan does.

Definition_Christ · Nov 20, 2009

watchmen said:

I have been praying about this and asking the Lord to please show me the truth. I have found out..
1 Thes 4 and Mat 24 are two separate events... Yes, but....

They go hand and hand.. The Lord Himself... WILL meet us in the clouds.... How do we get to the clouds?

Mat 24 says the angels will gather us... The angels will gather us into the clouds... And than we will be with Yeshua for eternity from then on...

Mat 24 also says.. This happens after the great tribulation.....Immediately after...So if 1 Thes 4 is an event that takes place BEFORE mat 24.. Then my question is... How do we get to the clouds?...

I have come to believe that it all takes place after the tribulation.......I could be wrong.. Again.. But I feel this is what is taught in the Scripture...

I can imagine how many pre-tribbers will walk away from their faith after this if it's true..... Once I believed pre-trib was a lie.. I felt so deceived and so hurt... I had believed this my whole walk with Yeshua... So it took a little while for the pain to go.. But we have to dig deep to find the truth and yes sometimes the truth does hurt...
Hebrews 4:12 makes that clear......Piercing between the soul and spirit.....

So, I have found out I was wrong.. I deeply apologize... I was arguing out of ignorance... I really did believe that.. I truly did... I was so deceived... I am sorry to anyone I argued with over it... Watchmen and Snail specifically ...

I am still learning... So hopefully I can continue to grow and learn in grace and truth as the truth and love was in Yeshua..

I believe Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego is a perfect example....(they symbolize Christians who are alive during the great tribulation).. They refused to bow down to the idol... (Like taking the mark of the beast)...They were persecuted afterwards... But who was there with them keeping them from the tribulation?... Yeshua showed up and was with them...

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

I could be wrong again.. I don't know.. I am still searching for the truth.. I feel the need to apologize though..

shad · Nov 20, 2009

Definition_Christ said:

When you study the word of God and doctrine, in relationship to what God has done for man through the cross, and you come to that place of decision and you have to make a judgment call, always side with and make your judgment according to God's mercy. If you do not see God's grace or mercy in it, then keep studying until you do and then dig some more. The reason for this is that the cross of Christ and everything that was accomplished on it for man, was to reveal God's mercy and plan of redemption through judging His own Son. Repeatedly keep asking this question concerning the word and doctrine you are learning, 'What is the most gracious and merciful thing that reveals who God is in relationship to sinners.' The most constant theme in the 32,00 scriptures that we have is that God is gracious, merciful, just and all together righteous in all His works to the children of men / Read Psalm 107.

Definition_Christ · Nov 20, 2009

shad said:

When you study the word of God and doctrine, in relationship to what God has done for man through the cross, and you come to that place of decision and you have to make a judgment call, always side with and make your judgment according to God's mercy. If you do not see God's grace or mercy in it, then keep studying until you do and then dig some more. The reason for this is that the cross of Christ and everything that was accomplished on it for man, was to reveal God's mercy and plan of redemption through judging His own Son. Repeatedly keep asking this question concerning the word and doctrine you are learning, 'What is the most gracious and merciful thing that reveals who God is in relationship to sinners.' The most constant theme in the 32,00 scriptures that we have is that God is gracious, merciful, just and all together righteous in all His works to the children of men / Read Psalm 107.

I don't know.

watchmen · Nov 20, 2009

Definition_Christ said:

Amen, I thank God for you , and there is no apology needed although it is gladly accepted. Let me say this I have been praying for you, sometimes I do come off as harsh, but my heart is for people to come to the truth. Let me also say this, hearing the testimony of a brother like you who is truly searching for truth finally finding it makes all the ridicule I take from people like shad and Thadaeus ect.... well worth it. I thank God for you brother D_C, and pray He keeps revealing to you His pure truth and you search to know Him better.

From one ex-pretribber to another God bless you.

P.S. Let us all have the heart D_C has to believe God's truth no matter where that truth leads us.

watchmen · Nov 20, 2009

shad said:

Let me ask you this shad. Why did all the Apostles have to be persecuted, and all but one martyred? Why are people being imprisoned for their faith as we speak in China, and killed by the masses for Christ in Africa, and why do you believe you are better than Jesus, the apostles, the Chinese or African Christians of today that you should not also suffer for your faith? Where is the grace and mercy of God in men watching their wives and children killed before their eyes because they will not deny Christ? You escaping the wrath of man and Satan while others suffer it is what you call justice? You must believe God's word is true not deny, ignore, twist, or dismiss it every time it doesn't meet your standards of mercy. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord even if it cost us our lives

Pete_Martinez · Nov 20, 2009

watchmen said:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(die), but we shall all be changed,

Unless you want it to say, Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall all sleep, but we shall all be changed. I understand what you're saying, and I agree that persecution will happen regardless of what happens. But keep in mind that taking those who are dead and alive in him was his idea, not ours. So to say why should God not allow all his servants to be killed is not complaining to us, but to him.

shad · Nov 20, 2009

watchmen said:

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution / 2Tim 3:12. That is a promise from God and is not restricted to a geographical location. It can happen overseas or right in your hometown or community that you live in. Just going about doing good can get you into trouble these days and if you are a Christian doing it, then the mocking kicks in and all the scorners start their 'scorning'. When the world slanders and maligns you because of your faith, that is to be expected, but when your family, your friends and the brethren, who profess Christ and love for you, do it behind your back, then that tends to hurt just a bit. The more that we identify with Christ and take up our cross, the less we love the world and the more the world will hate us. We don't have to go out there and make it happen, it will happen when we follow Christ each step of the way.

Believers since the cross, have been persecuted throughout the world because of Christ. Today we have a Laodicean church that is neither hot nor cold, but those that live godly will be persecuted. God did not make the time of the great tribulation for the church and bride of Christ, but He did make it for the Jews who are in unbelief and for the children of disobedience. Before Christ comes back for the church, prior to the great tribulation, there will be persecutions all over the world and believers will suffer plenty because of their faith and love for Jesus Christ. The greatest persecution will come from the religious crowd and you can count on that. But if we suffer with him we shall reign with Him / 2Tim 2:12.

God will give us grace and mercy in all these things and that is what we should continue to look for as we keep ourselves in the love of God / Jude 21.

watchmen · Nov 20, 2009

Pete_Martinez said:

Yet you miss the point. I am not complaining at all, but showing shad the error of his way. He somehow thinks God will not allow him to suffer because God is too merciful, yet that belief not only contradicts the Bible, but all of christian history, starting with Christ Himself. And yes some will survive the tribulation, scripture make that clear.

Pete_Martinez · Nov 20, 2009

watchmen said:

Yet you miss the point. I am not complaining at all, but showing shad the error of his way. He somehow thinks God will not allow him to suffer because God is too merciful, yet that belief not only contradicts the Bible, but all of christian history, starting with Christ Himself. And yes some will survive the tribulation, scripture make that clear.

Oh ok, I see what you mean.

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