The Return of Jews to Israel

[PeteWaldo]

Pete i dont have a problem with traditional historicist. Although in studying it i came
to several problems which didnt surprise me since all views have some deficiencies.
So im not here to wrestle with that. Already did my homework on Alcazar and ribera
not so sure that i believe the whole truth is told......

I agree. But it was Alcazar's invention that was used by the Roman Church in arguments against the Reformers. The reformers didn't buy it.

......i just cant tell sometimes for sure
whos for real and whose an agent for what side these days

The only way we can make a decision is to consider all 3 approaches to eschatology, and then consider each on its own merit (fair warning, the following is my site).
CHRISTIAN ESCHATOLOGY.com

As far as sides to take, as indicated in the OP secular Arabs are overwhelmingly in favor of their freedom and liberty and right to self-determination being preserved by the democracy provided by the Jewish state. Based on what has happened to Christians in Gaza can there be any question they would agree? And of course outside of a couple noisy cults (one based in Brooklyn) they are also in favor of the same. Only Muslims would want the totalitarian despotism of an Islamic state. Doesn't that make sense?

As far as which side to take one way we are given to judge is by the fruit. Who look around and see who goes against the Israeli democratic state and Jews.
Then look at who defends the Jewish state, for the benefit of ALL Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslims Arabs, as well as Israeli Muslims, who enjoy more freedom than Muslims do in any Islam controlled country on earth.

As far as scripture goes, we don't have to look much farther than Daniel's lion, bear and leopard "beast" kingdoms (Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece), and John's leopard-bear-lion "beast" kingdom.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Today the seat of those ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece are occupied by Iraq, Iran and Syria Lebanon. Do you have a more hermeneutically sound exegesis of these beast kingdoms?
Look at what the false prophet Muhammad's kingdom "beast" is doing in Africa, which has nothing to do with Jews:
united copts .org - Statement by Father Juan Carlos Martos cmf

 

[PeteWaldo]

Should have read "outside of a couple noisy cults (one based in Brooklyn) Jews are also in favor of the same."

 

[Abiding]

I agree. But it was Alcazar's invention that was used by the Roman Church in arguments against the Reformers. The reformers didn't buy it.

The only way we can make a decision is to consider all 3 approaches to eschatology, and then consider each on its own merit (fair warning, the following is my site).
CHRISTIAN ESCHATOLOGY.com

As far as sides to take, as indicated in the OP secular Arabs are overwhelmingly in favor of their freedom and liberty and right to self-determination being preserved by the democracy provided by the Jewish state. Based on what has happened to Christians in Gaza can there be any question they would agree? And of course outside of a couple noisy cults (one based in Brooklyn) they are also in favor of the same. Only Muslims would want the totalitarian despotism of an Islamic state. Doesn't that make sense?

As far as which side to take one way we are given to judge is by the fruit. Who look around and see who goes against the Israeli democratic state and Jews.
Then look at who defends the Jewish state, for the benefit of ALL Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslims Arabs, as well as Israeli Muslims, who enjoy more freedom than Muslims do in any Islam controlled country on earth.

As far as scripture goes, we don't have to look much farther than Daniel's lion, bear and leopard "beast" kingdoms (Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece), and John's leopard-bear-lion "beast" kingdom.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Today the seat of those ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece are occupied by Iraq, Iran and Syria Lebanon. Do you have a more hermeneutically sound exegesis of these beast kingdoms?
Look at what the false prophet Muhammad's kingdom "beast" is doing in Africa, which has nothing to do with Jews:
united copts .org - Statement by Father Juan Carlos Martos cmf

My biggest problem is tracing islam to catholism(jesuit invention) to judiasm.
everytime i work it out it appears the end game is about Israel. Or the muscle and
'money behind it with control worldwide both in wealth and resources and politics.
Islam to me is just a smokescreen and tool...just like communism and the rest all
points to Israel.

 

[DannyC]

Apart from the fact I'm anti-zionist, I feel Israel is a completely un-justified and is an in justice to the Palestines.

 

[PeteWaldo]

My biggest problem is tracing islam to catholism(jesuit invention) to judiasm.
everytime i work it out it appears the end game is about Israel. Or the muscle and
'money behind it with control worldwide both in wealth and resources and politics.
Islam to me is just a smokescreen and tool...just like communism and the rest all
points to Israel.

So the 1/4 of mankind that is commanded to either kill or subjugate you into DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ, and DENYING the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood, while compelling you to prostrate to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" in the names of the pagan Arabian deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad as articles of their faith.....
ISLAM 101
.....is just a smokescreen for the 2/10s of 1% of the global population that are really the ones that are out to get you?

Let's compare the "People of the Book" to Muhammad's followers, in terms of Nobel Prizes, to get a little better understanding of how Jews have indeed been a blessing on "all families of the earth" while Muhammad's followers, on average, have been the exact opposite.

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1.5 billion, or about 25% of the world's population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1988 - Najib Mahfooz

Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat:
1999 - Ahmed Zewai

Economics: (zero)

Physics: (zero)

Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar

Chemistry:
1999 - Ahmed Hassan Zewail

TOTAL 6 (with half of them for so-called "peace" even including one awarded to the Islamist terrorist Yasar Arafat!)

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.2% (yes that's 2/10 of 1%) of the world's population, yet they compose 22% of all individual recipients of Nobel Prizes worldwide, between 1901 and 2009 including:

Literature: 10
1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pa sternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

Peace: 8
1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Physics: 53
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phil lips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Joseph son
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Sidney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics: 13
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Mil ton Friedman
1978 - Herb ert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine: 43
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herb ert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Ed elman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Ed ward B. Lewis

Chemistry: 24
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1972 - William Howard Stein
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Herbert Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1989 - Sidney Altman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1998 - Walter Kohn
2004 - Avram Hershko, Aaron Ciechanover and Irwin Rose
2006 - Roger Kornberg

TOTAL: 151

Genesis 12:2-3 And I will make of thee [Abram] a great nation, [Israel] and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

There are only two sides in conflict. That of the freedom, liberty and right to self-determination offered by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State VS the promise of just another Middle East, totalitarian, oppressive, sharia law ruled, little girl circumcising, multiple wife and concubine beating, Christian and Jew beheading Islamic slave state.

 

[doulos]

God's covenant IS everlasting.
It is now entered into by faith in Jesus Christ--that Name we have been given by which we must be saved.

Yes the same way it was before the crucifixion, the same way it always has and always will be, nothings changed there.The only way one could ever into the kingdom of God from Adam on into our future was by faith in Christ. That didn’t change when the New Covenat started it has always been that way.
1Co 10:1-4Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
If the Old Covenant became or merged with the New covenant then why is a distinction still made between them in Hebrews decades after the New Covenant came into effect?
Heb 8:13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
It may “decayeth and waxeth old and is ready to vanish away” but it will remain until the end or it would not be an everlasting covenant. For God to be true to His word and He is, He must keep a remnant under it or it would cease to exist.

Not some messiah to come, unrecognized by people yet God still honors that?

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Who do you think the Messiah is, that the elct that are enemies of the gospel believe in? Could it be Christ? Would they learn about Christ or would they learn about some other Messiah by studying the only Scriptures(Old Testament) God allows them to see?

Why destroy the temple?
Would God, at some point, be pleased to have sacrifices offered for sin there?
After His own Son was sacrificed?

Why keep a building Jesus Himself said was desolate and would be destroyed around? The Jews don’t really need it, they just think they do. They were never saved by their adherence to the law or making sacrifices but instead by having faith in Christ just as 1Cor10:1-4 tells us. So no, God would not want sacrifices made after the perfect Sacrifice had been made. Which is most likely why God has never allowed it to be rebuilt.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Apart from the fact I'm anti-zionist......

That certainly puts you in the company of the vast majority of the whole world!

I feel Israel is a completely un-justified and is an in justice to the Palestines.

Could you please explain what a so-called "Palestinian" is?

Wikipedia article regarding secular Israeli Arabs: "In contrast, a poll of 507 Arab-Israelis conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute in 2007 found that 75 percent profess support for Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state which guarantees equal rights for minorities. Israeli Arab support for a constitution in general was 88 percent.[31]"

Walid Shoebat once said, “One day during the 1960’s I went to bed a Jordanian Muslim, and when I woke up the next morning, I was informed that I was now a Palestinian Muslim, and that I was no longer a Jordanian Muslim.”

 

[Angela53510]

If you believe that Jews are saved on the basis of believing in the Torah, you need to check out a synagogue and read the Talmud.

It is the basis of modern Jewish faith, a tradition handed down from the Pharisees themselves. I was shocked at the man- made interpretations and twisting of the Bible. They do not believe in the Torah literally, they believe in it as interpreted, which gives them all kinds of room to obey the law, and not have saving faith in Christ.

Oh yes, I have to agree that we are saved by Christ, not by heritage, works of the law, or the Talmud or Targum or any other religious books. Really, although the Bible is our guide, and is the living word, it is through Christ we are saved.

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.” Acts. 4:12

And that name is Jesus!

As for Israel, it is really a modern secular state. The people who run it may be mostly Jewish, but it is a democratic, parliamentary democracy. A far cry from the theocracy, that was ancient Israel. Is it a fulfillment of Bible prophecies? Well, we are far past a generation since Israel was established, using 40 years as a generation. I don't know why anyone would use 1967 as the starting point, but we are past that date for a generation, too!

I think anyone reaching out to Jews or Muslims to share the gospel has my prayer support. Just yesterday in church, we heard a man with a ministry to Muslims talk about the people that have accepted Christ, and the persecution they face anywhere in the world. Still, saving faith is in Jesus and our job is to share the gospel, in my opinion, not debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whether modern day Israel is the fulfillment of Scripture.

As far as Palestinians, I just did some research on the name. It actually comes from the word, Peleshet, which appears in the Bible as "Philistines". These were the sea peoples, and unrelated to the Semites, through either the line of Isaac or Ishmael. The Romans renamed Israel Palestine (Palestina), after sacking the temple and the country.

So really, there is no Palestinian language or people. This was an artificial construct of the Romans and later revived under the British after the Balfour declaration in 1917. Israel has had a lot of names, from Canaan to Israel, Judah and even Syria at one point. So the "Palestinians" are displaced Arab Muslims, and they never really had a nation or country, but literally were ruled by one county or another, from the time of Joshua. Of course, the Muslims did conquer it, along with the Mamluks and the Ottoman Turks and the British until it finally came under Jewish rule. There was never a nation known as Palestine, which was ruled by Palestinians. A sort of "not" people!

 

[Abiding]

Pete, im sure Islam will be a real deception. Maybe we should
warn the world. Those little devils are hardly noticed. Right?

 

[PeteWaldo]

I have no idea why you say im using the cross for any time reference.
Also im not in agreement the "times of the gentiles" and the "fulness of the gentiles" are the same.
1967 doesnt apply at all to me.

Sorry I missed this post. And I may have misread yours, as this is the one I got that impression from:

"Yup thats how i see it. Romans was written in the early to mid 50s. The Gentiles were
fully established in the church and received the revelation of twain one new man. Done deal.
Theres a better word to use for fulness if you mean a number rather than meaning fulness
of blessing and status."

But the fact is that the Gentiles were established in the church even before the cross. The veil in the temple was even rent in twain at the cross. Even before the cross Jesus declared: Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

They didn't have to wait around until two decades later. Jesus built our temple in 3 days just as He said He could:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Through the one sacrifice for sin forever.

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[DannyC]

That certainly puts you in the company of the vast majority of the whole world!

Could you please explain what a so-called "Palestinian" is?

Wikipedia article regarding secular Israeli Arabs: "In contrast, a poll of 507 Arab-Israelis conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute in 2007 found that 75 percent profess support for Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state which guarantees equal rights for minorities. Israeli Arab support for a constitution in general was 88 percent.[31]"

Walid Shoebat once said, “One day during the 1960’s I went to bed a Jordanian Muslim, and when I woke up the next morning, I was informed that I was now a Palestinian Muslim, and that I was no longer a Jordanian Muslim.”

Do you always quote Wikipedia? I find it very unreliable, when I was doing my report regarding the 1972 Munich Olympics and the Israeli and Palestinian conflict afterwards I found Wikipedia in comparison to the books I've read a completely muddled and flimsy source. Not mention I could edit the page you just looked at.

The foundation of Israeli is completely unjustified as the claim to the land is based on a stone age religion, both sides muslims and jews make truth claims based on religious doctrine which they believe both their Gods give creedance to own that land.

If for one moment we remove the false religious doctrine we are left with a humantiarian nightmare of forced refugees, and murders which circulate from both sides, and include well known Israeli and Palestinian terrorist groups.

I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. …the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power….I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain – especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks…

-- Einstein speech in New York, 1938.
​

 

[Agricola]

Apart from the fact I'm anti-zionist, I feel Israel is a completely un-justified and is an in justice to the Palestines.

I wonder if God thinks the same?

Sorry, but I have more chance of believing evolution is fact and man evolved than the anti-Semitic hatred and nonsense being spouted off as fact.

why do people ahve problems with the Jews returning not being beleivers? Have they ever been, even in the days leading out from Egypt most of the people went against God, even when Moses was off receiving the Ten Commandments people were worshipping false gods.

Problem is people are too caught up in hatred for Jews and too guliable falling for all the conspiracy nonsense, they would rather reject the clear facts in Bible regarding the whole issue. Unfortunately the lies and evils of replacement theology is growing in popularity, as we can clearly see on this thread.

I see things for what they are, its simple, its amazing and prophecy in action, the Nation of Israel restored once again with Jews returning home, all under protection and blessing of God. If you dont think God has anyting to do with what's going on then you are as blind as the Jews are to Jesus.

A tiny nation fighting off superior forces time and time again, a lengthy list of disasters punishing people and nations who attack Israel or have been at forefront of making Israel give up land. Of course people dont accept this, but that's your choice.

 

[RedTent]

I am studying the times of the kings in Israel. They talked just as you are talking when they debated about following God, and whether God was in control of their govenments.

God said He would lead the Jews back to the land He gave them. God is doing that. God said that they were to possess that land, and not give parts of it away. They gave parts away in the preChrist as the Messiah days, and we are helping them do it now. It was disasterous to disobey God then, and it is disasterous to disobey God now.

You can study and reason and use all the common sense of the mind that our creator gave you to use, but the bottom line is that God created us, God is in control, and God's ways will win out. We win when we follow Him, and lose when we don't. Always have, always will.

 

[PeteWaldo]

That's what suggestion that it was all over and done with in the first century says.
Obviously I believe that time is yet in the future.

I believe there will NEVER be a time that no gentile will get saved.. so it can't be that interpretation. unless we say there will be a time when no more gentiles will ever be saved again. Not buying it. Not scriptural. Never has happened in the history of the earth, never will happen.

So you reject the resurrection of the dead and the Second Coming of Christ as being yet future events?

 

[Abiding]

Sorry I missed this post. And I may have misread yours, as this is the one I got that impression from:

"Yup thats how i see it. Romans was written in the early to mid 50s. The Gentiles were
fully established in the church and received the revelation of twain one new man. Done deal.
Theres a better word to use for fulness if you mean a number rather than meaning fulness
of blessing and status."

But the fact is that the Gentiles were established in the church even before the cross. The veil in the temple was even rent in twain at the cross. Even before the cross Jesus declared: Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

They didn't have to wait around until two decades later. Jesus built our temple in 3 days just as He said He could:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Through the one sacrifice for sin forever.

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

your right. but the gospel didnt go out to the gentiles for a few years, after Paul was called.
Im not trying to get technical about an exact date. But im trying to understand both the intent
of scripture and Gods intent for both the partial hardening and the fulness of the gentiles.
"coming in"

Jesus told then to stay in Jerusalem only. Later through Paul and Peters vision did they go to
Samaria then to Cornelious and the gentiles. About the time of Stephens stoning. Trivial i know.
But anyway im here to hear your view not give mine

 

[DannyC]

I wonder if God thinks the same?

Sorry, but I have more chance of believing evolution is fact and man evolved than the anti-Semitic hatred and nonsense being spouted off as fact.

why do people ahve problems with the Jews returning not being beleivers? Have they ever been, even in the days leading out from Egypt most of the people went against God, even when Moses was off receiving the Ten Commandments people were worshipping false gods.

Problem is people are too caught up in hatred for Jews and too guliable falling for all the conspiracy nonsense, they would rather reject the clear facts in Bible regarding the whole issue. Unfortunately the lies and evils of replacement theology is growing in popularity, as we can clearly see on this thread.

I see things for what they are, its simple, its amazing and prophecy in action, the Nation of Israel restored once again with Jews returning home, all under protection and blessing of God. If you dont think God has anyting to do with what's going on then you are as blind as the Jews are to Jesus.

A tiny nation fighting off superior forces time and time again, a lengthy list of disasters punishing people and nations who attack Israel or have been at forefront of making Israel give up land. Of course people dont accept this, but that's your choice.

What? Evolution? No one mentioned evolution what are you even talking about?

Anti-zionist is not anti-semetic in that case Einstein must have been anti-semetic. I don't hate Jews and your implication is if you don't support Israel your a Jew hater? This is pure nonsense from someone willing to point the finger and jump to conclusions.

I made no inference of a conspiracy theory either. Disasters are God punishing people? You obviously are just venting some preconcieved notion without a slight relfection on what you are saying.

 

[Abiding]

I wonder if God thinks the same?

Sorry, but I have more chance of believing evolution is fact and man evolved than the anti-Semitic hatred and nonsense being spouted off as fact.

why do people ahve problems with the Jews returning not being beleivers? Have they ever been, even in the days leading out from Egypt most of the people went against God, even when Moses was off receiving the Ten Commandments people were worshipping false gods.

Problem is people are too caught up in hatred for Jews and too guliable falling for all the conspiracy nonsense, they would rather reject the clear facts in Bible regarding the whole issue. Unfortunately the lies and evils of replacement theology is growing in popularity, as we can clearly see on this thread.

I see things for what they are, its simple, its amazing and prophecy in action, the Nation of Israel restored once again with Jews returning home, all under protection and blessing of God. If you dont think God has anyting to do with what's going on then you are as blind as the Jews are to Jesus.

A tiny nation fighting off superior forces time and time again, a lengthy list of disasters punishing people and nations who attack Israel or have been at forefront of making Israel give up land. Of course people dont accept this, but that's your choice.

Matt 23:[SUP]36 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.[SUP]37 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

When and how will this take place? What does "left unto you desolate" mean?
What does it mean to say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord"
What are the Old Testament requirements for coming back into the land? And how
were they to treat the people in the land? I think people can debate this without
being called Jew haters especially the blondehair blue eyed ones.

 

[PeteWaldo]

I wonder if God thinks the same?

Sorry, but I have more chance of believing evolution is fact and man evolved than the anti-Semitic hatred and nonsense being spouted off as fact.

why do people ahve problems with the Jews returning not being beleivers?

Indeed! This is why not a single one of them has attempted the only request I made at the bottom of the OP. Let alone ignoring one of the reasons for the restoration of Jews to their land:

Ezekiel 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols [wherewith] they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These [are] the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

A fulfillment of prophecy so stunning that "the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD" but preterists...... oh well. That's a testament to the power of doctrine.

Have they ever been, even in the days leading out from Egypt most of the people went against God, even when Moses was off receiving the Ten Commandments people were worshipping false gods.

Problem is people are too caught up in hatred for Jews and too guliable falling for all the conspiracy nonsense, they would rather reject the clear facts in Bible regarding the whole issue. Unfortunately the lies and evils of replacement theology is growing in popularity, as we can clearly see on this thread.

Because of the smokescreen of the term "Palestinian" many don't even realize they are taking the Israeli Muslim's side, against Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslim Arabs as well as against the freedom, liberty and right to self-determination of all Israeli citizens.
Working to convert Israel into just another Middle Eastern Islamic slave state. It's stunning the blindness false eschatology can cause to reality itself.
Through Roman Church styled "punitive", or hard, "supersessionism" (a handy term I learned not long ago)

I see things for what they are, its simple, its amazing and prophecy in action, the Nation of Israel restored once again with Jews returning home, all under protection and blessing of God. If you dont think God has anyting to do with what's going on then you are as blind as the Jews are to Jesus.

I believe the reason they have not even as yet answered the only request made in my original post, is because they begin to understand what it really means, and realize the side they have chosen. Again, I asked:

"I would appreciate it if members began their replies as to whether you believe the restoration of Jews to Israel is of the Lord, as millions believe was prophesied - and as Christians anticipated long before that restoration began to take place - or whether you believe it is of Satan, and why, or offer another alternative. "

A tiny nation fighting off superior forces time and time again, a lengthy list of disasters punishing people and nations who attack Israel or have been at forefront of making Israel give up land. Of course people dont accept this, but that's your choice.

Fighting off the most consummate force of evil in the history of mankind. Any surprise that the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem was in bed with Hitler and there was a whole Islamic panzer division in Hitler's army?
Hitler and the Mufti - YouTube

Here's why:Sahih Bukhari B52 #177 Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "the Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Because it's every true follower of Muhammad's job!

Sahih Al-Bukhari - "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite." page 580 of Maktba Dar-us-Salam's Sahih Al-Bukhari
JIHAD

 

[Domenic]

Then how do you explain the physical matter of fact of the restoration of Jews to their land?

I would think you would agree that it did not take place in a spiritual vacuum. So from a Christian perspective it is either of the Lord, or it is of Satan, wouldn't you agree?

Pete, I have been standing between the same thing for some time…is it Satan, or God doing this?

Gods people are Israel. The tribes who are in Israel, are the tribes of Judah. The other ten tribes broke off with the tribes of Judah when Solomon’s son became King.
The tribes of Israel, have been suing the Jews for stealing their name Israel? The Jews have been working hard to make the people of the world believe Gods people, (all of them) are Jews. This never has been so. The USA gives the State of israel million each month, because they believe the Jews are gods people.
My understanding of the scriptures, Because the tribes of Judah rejected Jesus, God took their portion away from them, and gave it to the Gentiles. The apostils were commanded to preach the Good News of the Kingdom to the tribes of Israel, and not to the tribes of Judah (Jews.). Paul was a gentiles, and was commanded to only spread the Good News of the Kingdom to gentiles.
Jesus mother Mary was a Levite. Joseph her husband was a Jew. Since God planted seed into Mary, Jesus was born a Levite.
I am having a problem seeing why Jesus when he returns, should return to a land under the control of those who rejected him, and still do?
I feel the Anti Christ (Satan) would feel more comfortable there.
But I don’t know. I’m letting it play out as it will. As to the Muslims, are they any worse than others who reject Jesus?

 

[PeteWaldo]

Pete, I have been standing between the same thing for some time…is it Satan, or God doing this?

From a Christian perspective it must necessarily be one or the other. Yet half the church believes it is of the Lord and was prophesied.
While the other must believe it is of Satan. Doesn't that mean that one side of the church is serving Satan in this regard?

Even centuries before they began to be restored: Matthew Henry: "If God will build Jerusalem for the people and their comfort, they must inhabit it for him and his glory. The promises and privileges with which God's people are blessed, should engage us to join them, whatever it costs us."

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Matthew Henry: "If God will build Jerusalem for the people and their comfort, they must inhabit it for him and his glory. The promises and privileges with which God's people are blessed, should engage us to join them, whatever it costs us."[/FONT]

Isaac Newton: “…the final return of the Jews captivity and their conquering the nations of the four Monarchies and setting up a (peaceable) righteous and flourishing kingdom at the day of judgment is this mystery.”

“Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high –mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious”

Gods people are Israel. The tribes who are in Israel, are the tribes of Judah. The other ten tribes broke off with the tribes of Judah when Solomon’s son became King.
The tribes of Israel, have been suing the Jews for stealing their name Israel? The Jews have been working hard to make the people of the world believe Gods people, (all of them) are Jews. This never has been so. The USA gives the State of israel million each month, because they believe the Jews are gods people.

I believe the U.S. does that because Israel is is the only country in the area that shares our western values, and is under constant assault by their enemies. This is a matter of fact paraphrase (I exchanged "Muslims" in place of his "Arabs") of Netinyahu's more politically correct statement:

If the Muslims put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel.

This is what makes it easier to see:
Wikipedia article: "In contrast, a poll of 507 Arab-Israelis conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute in 2007 found that 75 percent profess support for Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state which guarantees equal rights for minorities. Israeli Arab support for a constitution in general was 88 percent.[31]"

The conflict is between Israeli Muslims VS Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslim Arabs.

My understanding of the scriptures, Because the tribes of Judah rejected Jesus, God took their portion away from them, and gave it to the Gentiles. The apostils were commanded to preach the Good News of the Kingdom to the tribes of Israel, and not to the tribes of Judah (Jews.). Paul was a gentiles, and was commanded to only spread the Good News of the Kingdom to gentiles.
Jesus mother Mary was a Levite. Joseph her husband was a Jew. Since God planted seed into Mary, Jesus was born a Levite.
I am having a problem seeing why Jesus when he returns, should return to a land under the control of those who rejected him, and still do?

Please read the prior post. Why did God return them to their land? For their sakes, or for the sake of His holy name? What is prophesied for that "day of the Lord" to which you allude:

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Yet folks in this forum don't hesitate to go around proclaiming God's judgment on Jews that worship YHWH through our Old Testament scriptures, even as they could be numbered among those that come against Jerusalem.

I feel the Anti Christ (Satan) would feel more comfortable there.

Regarding the geographical area of the leopard-bear-lion (Greece, Medo-Persia, Babylon - today Syria/Lebanon, Iran, Iraq) "beast" Satan should feel comfortable there. He gave the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast his power, seat and authority.
Regarding antichrist:

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Mohammed even ordering up his "Allah's" curse on YHWH's people like some sort of a voodoo incantation, while instructing his followers to fight us.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Yet Jews recognize their promised Son. Some that may remain sovereignly blinded just haven't yet realized who that Son is.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Muslims are required to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, deny the Son of God, and REJECT His shed blood as articles of faith in Muhammad alone.

Our Old Testament scriptures require no such thing of Jews. Indeed how many groups do you count in this verse:

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

From my own experience, no Jews that I have been acquainted with who have faith in YHWH and whose lives revolve around Him, would.

But I don’t know. I’m letting it play out as it will. As to the Muslims, are they any worse than others who reject Jesus?

I think it would be worth your while to read the whole thread. It isn't that long yet.