the Sabbath

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SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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Sabbath keeping is not given as a commandment in the NT, no matter how hard you try to insert it.

The Sabbath rest pointed forward to the rest we find in Jesus Christ, who worked
on the Sabbath and said His Father continued to work on the Sabbath also.


Sabbatarians can be so relentless in their pushing of this day that we had one telling
us we were breaking the law to worship God on any other day. How ridiculous is that?
God does not do secular work and Jesus in His own Words said He kept the commandments John 15:10 as should we. I believe Him over the similar teachings that Jesus broke the Sabbath that the Pharisees also claimed and murdered Him without cause.

Jesus in His own Words said He is Lord of the Sabbath (Creator) Mat 2:28 not that He is the Sabbath (creation) such a sad teaching.

You also didn't even acknowledge the teachings of Jesus, almost as if they don't matter - when He tells us to live by every Word. Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 Jesus kept them as our example to follow 1 John 2:6 and tells us not to keep our rules over the commandments of God- my faith is in Him and His every Word.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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God does not do secular work and Jesus in His own Words said He kept the commandments John 15:10 as should we. I believe Him over the similar teachings that Jesus broke the Sabbath that the Pharisees also claimed and murdered Him without cause.

Jesus in His own Words said He is Lord of the Sabbath (Creator) Mat 2:28 not that He is the Sabbath (creation) just a sad teaching.
LOL. Who here has said Jesus broke the Sabbath? Just another sorry tack which
ignores the FACT that Jesus did work on the Sabbath and said His Father did, too.



Galatians 3:10
 

dlj57

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Jan 11, 2024
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Colossians 2:14-17 and Romans 14 is not referring to the weekly Sabbath commandment that was written personally by the finger of God- no greater Authority than He!


There is more than one Sabbath in scripture. The weekly Sabbath which is a commandment of God- finger written personally by God and no man has authority to countermand. The annual sabbath(s) feast days that came after sin has to do with food and drink offerings that were an ordinance handwritten by Moses.

Paul made it clear, the sabbath(s) he was referring to the ordinances handwritten by Moses which the context is in verse Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


The Sabbath is a commandment of God, not a suggestion, finger written personally by our Lord and Savior that is holy and blessed (not the definition of contrary or against)and God said "Remember" because He knew everyone would forget. Once God blesses something as He did the Sabbath day, man cannot reverse. Num 23:20

The seventh day Sabbath is not a shadow of anything because it started at Creation- Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11God's perfect plan before the fall of man. The annual sabbath(s) called holy days that were ordinances Exo 12:43 Num 9:12 added after the fall of man that had to do with food and drink offerings Heb 9:10 Num 29:21 Num 29:24, the context of this passage, that were handwritten by Moses 1 Chro 33:8 that all was a placeholder until Jesus came 1 Cor 5:7 Cor 2:17 Heb 10:1-22 as the blood of animals made nothing perfect but the blood of Christ can cleanse us of all sin and unrighteousness.

Rom 14:15 is referring to opinions of man, not what day God esteems over all others- the Sabbath is My holy day, the seventh day is the Sabbath Exo 20:10 Isa 58:13 which is why Romans 14 never once mentions the Sabbath. Man adds it there because that's their will, not God's. Romans 14:15 correlates with Col 2:14-17 and if one wanted to read Romans 14 in context you would see it is about food and drink, judging and opinions of man- not opinions of God. There is nothing in all the Ten Commandments that is about food or drink offerings.

When God is referring to The or His Commandments or the Law in the NT, He is referring to the Ten Commandments and His Law. The Old Mosaic Law is done away with and has no bearing in the NT.
Col 2:16? He is talking to the Jews and believers, telling them not to let anyone judge them in keeping those things including holding the true Sabbath Day.
Romans 14:5-6 These verses do not concern any days that must be kept holy. It is referring to those recently converted, not yet having grown strong in the faith, refused to eat meat and subsisted mainly on vegetables. (Is what you said also, I agree)

I really liked your post
Blessings, Danny
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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So, we'll be getting a rest from SDA diatribes later this evening, yes?
 

SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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LOL. Who here has said Jesus broke the Sabbath? Just another sorry tack which
ignores the FACT that Jesus did work on the Sabbath and said His Father did, too.



Galatians 3:10
Sad, basically this is siding with the Pharisees that accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and sinning. God's work is not secular work- doing good on the Sabbath is not a sin. If Jesus broke one commandment and sinned He could not be our Savior. Jesus said in His own Words He did not break the commandments John 15:10- you can believe what you want, my faith is in Him and His every Word.

This is what Jesus had to say about it.

John 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Sad, basically this is siding with the Pharisees that accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and sinning.
You are denying what Jesus said. Very sad indeed.

My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working.”

Jesus admitted to doing work on a Sabbath. How sad you must deny it.
 

SabbathBlessing

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Love is the foundation of His commandments. He said so right in the commandments Exo 20:6

The summary (love to God and to man) does not delete the details.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
 

SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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You are denying what Jesus said. Very sad indeed.

My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working.”
Sorry you do not understand this scripture and believe His work is secular and not spiritual. There is nothing wrong with doing God's ways on the Sabbath Isa 58:13 which is the work Jesus did- healing people and doing good is not a sin which is why Jesus kept the commandments including the Sabbath, but believe what you want, its what the Pharisees believed and Jesus had some strong Words for them .
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Colossians 2:14-17 and Romans 14 is not referring to the weekly Sabbath commandment that was written personally by the finger of God- no greater Authority than He!


There is more than one Sabbath in scripture. The weekly Sabbath which is a commandment of God- finger written personally by God and no man has authority to countermand. The annual sabbath(s) feast days that came after sin has to do with food and drink offerings that were an ordinance handwritten by Moses.

Paul made it clear, the sabbath(s) he was referring to the ordinances handwritten by Moses which the context is in verse Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


The Sabbath is a commandment of God, not a suggestion, finger written personally by our Lord and Savior that is holy and blessed (not the definition of contrary or against)and God said "Remember" because He knew everyone would forget. Once God blesses something as He did the Sabbath day, man cannot reverse. Num 23:20

The seventh day Sabbath is not a shadow of anything because it started at Creation- Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11God's perfect plan before the fall of man. The annual sabbath(s) called holy days that were ordinances Exo 12:43 Num 9:12 added after the fall of man that had to do with food and drink offerings Heb 9:10 Num 29:21 Num 29:24, the context of this passage, that were handwritten by Moses 1 Chro 33:8 that all was a placeholder until Jesus came 1 Cor 5:7 Cor 2:17 Heb 10:1-22 as the blood of animals made nothing perfect but the blood of Christ can cleanse us of all sin and unrighteousness.

Rom 14:15 is referring to opinions of man, not what day God esteems over all others- the Sabbath is My holy day, the seventh day is the Sabbath Exo 20:10 Isa 58:13 which is why Romans 14 never once mentions the Sabbath. Man adds it there because that's their will, not God's. Romans 14:15 correlates with Col 2:14-17 and if one wanted to read Romans 14 in context you would see it is about food and drink, judging and opinions of man- not opinions of God. There is nothing in all the Ten Commandments that is about food or drink offerings.
You have blustered at length without making your case.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Sorry you do not understand this scripture and believe His work is secular and not spiritual. There is nothing wrong with doing God's ways on the Sabbath Isa 58:13 which is the work Jesus did- healing people and doing good is not a sin which is why Jesus kept the commandments including the Sabbath, but believe what you want, its what the Pharisees believed and Jesus had some strong Words for them .
I do not believe that Jesus broke the law, you false accuser, you.
 

SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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When God is referring to The or His Commandments or the Law in the NT, He is referring to the Ten Commandments and His Law. The Old Mosaic Law is done away with and has no bearing in the NT.
Col 2:16? He is talking to the Jews and believers, telling them not to let anyone judge them in keeping those things including holding the true Sabbath Day.
Romans 14:5-6 These verses do not concern any days that must be kept holy. It is referring to those recently converted, not yet having grown strong in the faith, refused to eat meat and subsisted mainly on vegetables. (Is what you said also, I agree)

I really liked your post
Blessings, Danny
Thank you!

In Col 2:16 if you look at the context it is referring to food, drink holy days and sabbath(s) and it is what was contained in ordinances handwritten by Moses.

This is referring to the annual feasts days, also called sabbath(s) and holy day(s) all written by Moses as ordinances in the law of Moses- nothing to do with the Ten Commandments and the feast days which included animal sacrifices all pointed forward to Jesus who because our Sacrificial Lamb. So instead of sacrificing animals for sin (breaking God's law) we can go directly to Jesus when we have a change of heart and direction and repent of our sins. The blood of animals made nothing perfect Heb 10:4 the blood of Christ is perfect for cleansing us of all sin and unrighteousness.


Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

And what it pointed forward to


Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Sin hasn't changed from the OC to the NC it is still the transgression of God's law the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 but what changed was how we go about the forgiveness of sins. The Ten Commandments just show us our sins like a mirror Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20 and points us to Jesus who can cleanse us of all sin and unrighteousness when we confess so we can receive His mercy, grace and sanctification.
 

dlj57

Active member
Jan 11, 2024
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God does not do secular work and Jesus in His own Words said He kept the commandments John 15:10 as should we. I believe Him over the similar teachings that Jesus broke the Sabbath that the Pharisees also claimed and murdered Him without cause.

Jesus in His own Words said He is Lord of the Sabbath (Creator) Mat 2:28 not that He is the Sabbath (creation) such a sad teaching.

You also didn't even acknowledge the teachings of Jesus, almost as if they don't matter - when He tells us to live by every Word. Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 Jesus kept them as our example to follow 1 John 2:6 and tells us not to keep our rules over the commandments of God- my faith is in Him and His every Word.

I agree with you SabbathBlessing
I do not agree with Magenta.
1) The word rest in scripture means Sabbath Keeping.
2) God started his work on the 1st day and rested on the 7th day. "For 6 days ye shall labor and rest on the 7th day and keep it holly"
3) Jesus and all his apostles kept the Sabbath, the only work that Crist did on the Sabbath was good work.
Q; Show me scripture where Jesus labored on the Sabbath.
Q: Show me one verse where Jesus went into a synagogue on any other day and preached the gospel.
We worship God every day of the week, even Sunday. The got together and broke bread and fellowshipped and even preached the gospel on every day including Sunday, and that by no means implies the Sabbath was changed.
The ten Commandments are all in the NT and the Sabbath is mentioned and observed 60 times in the NT
Q: WHY? Why are the Commandments and Sabbath observance in the NT?
 

dlj57

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Jan 11, 2024
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Since the old covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the old covenant to legally put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10) and out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

2 Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.

1) The word rest in scripture means Sabbath Keeping.
2) God started his work on the 1st day and rested on the 7th day. "For 6 days ye shall labor and rest on the 7th day and keep it holly"
3) Jesus and all his apostles kept the Sabbath, The only work that Crist did on the Sabbath was good work.
Q; Show me scripture where Jesus labored on the Sabbath.
Q: Show me one verse where Jesus went into a synagogue on any other day and preached the gospel.
We worship God every day of the week, even Sunday. The got together and broke bread and fellowshipped and even preached the gospel on every day including Sunday, and that by no means implies the Sabbath was changed.
The ten Commandments are all in the NT and the Sabbath is mentioned and observed 60 times in the NT
Q: WHY? Why are the Commandments and Sabbath observance in the NT?
 

dlj57

Active member
Jan 11, 2024
189
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Thank you!

In Col 2:16 if you look at the context it is referring to food, drink holy days and sabbath(s) and it is what was contained in ordinances handwritten by Moses.

This is referring to the annual feasts days, also called sabbath(s) and holy day(s) all written by Moses as ordinances in the law of Moses- nothing to do with the Ten Commandments and the feast days which included animal sacrifices all pointed forward to Jesus who because our Sacrificial Lamb. So instead of sacrificing animals for sin (breaking God's law) we can go directly to Jesus when we have a change of heart and direction and repent of our sins. The blood of animals made nothing perfect Heb 10:4 the blood of Christ is perfect for cleansing us of all sin and unrighteousness.


Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

And what it pointed forward to


Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Sin hasn't changed from the OC to the NC it is still the transgression of God's law the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 but what changed was how we go about the forgiveness of sins. The Ten Commandments just show us our sins like a mirror Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20 and points us to Jesus who can cleanse us of all sin and unrighteousness when we confess so we can receive His mercy, grace and sanctification.

I agree
I believe in The Ten Commandments and the observance of the true Sabbath.
Blessings, Danny
 

SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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I agree
I believe in The Ten Commandments and the observance of the true Sabbath.
Blessings, Danny
Amen! Jesus just wants spend time with us and to bless Isa 58:13-15 Isa 56:1-6 and sanctify us Eze 20:12, because we can't sanctify ourselves.
 

dlj57

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Jan 11, 2024
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Straw man argument.


Exactly how did God forgive you? Please explain to me how you became a Christian. How do you answer the question, "what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30-31) Worshipping the Lord on Sunday, commemorating the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a golden calf? Really? o_O SDA's refer to Sunday worship as the mark of the beast. Red flag!

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast (nonsda.org)

Now of course, our best isn't good enough (Romans 3:23) which is why we need a Savior. (Romans 6:23) We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) We are not saved by grace plus law, faith plus works (Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9) as SDA's teach. I was once in a discussion with a former member of Christian Chat who was a SDA and he once made this statement to me below in blue which confirms grace plus law, faith plus works.

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Do you agree with that statement made by the SDA above in blue?

Thats not what I said! I said Organized Sunday worship, referring to so called Christians saying the Sabbath Day has changed to Sunday.
The Sabbath is the 7th Day of the week so why do we go to church on Sunday. I know the history, starting with the Protestant Reformation, wanting to distance themselves from the Jews who was being persecuted by the Romans, so they change their day of worship from the 7th day to the 1st. Notice they did keep the Sabbat and they changed it not God. Then came Constantine who worshiped the Sun and that's where we get Sunday from. He is the first to actually implement a written law enforcing Sunday worship and forbidding Sabbath observance. Then came the Roman Catholic Church forming the Sunday worship we have today. They actually state that there is no bases for Christians to observe Sunday except by the authority of the church itself.
Mark 7:3 describes such a tradition that did not come from God's law but from Halakhah. Jesus says that they rejected the commandments of God so that they might keep their own tradition (verse 7). He also said their traditions destroyed the effect of God's Word (Mark 7:13).
You know in the end day there will be a one world religion forced on the people and that will be Sunday worship.
As for the Resurrection statement-

Burial - Matt 27:57 "as evening approached", Mark 15:42 "It was Preparation Day (The Next day was a high day, an annual Sabbath) So as evening approached", Luke 23:54 "It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin", (Same reference to the High Day or annual Sabbath not the weekly 7th day Sabbath.) John 19:42 "Because it was the Jewish Day of Preparation..." Jesus was buried as evening approached before the next day began, because it was a High Day an annual Sabbath.

Resurrection - Matt 28:1-6 (1) ... at dawn on the first day of the week (6) He is not here he has risen (this statement is in the past tense, already done. It does not imply he rose Sunday morning.) Mark 16: 1-6 (6)"...He has risen" (States the same thing, past tense already done.) Luke 24:1-6 (6)"He is not here, but is risen ... " (States the same thing, past tense) John 20:1-16 (1) Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark (all the information given in John)

Q. If Crist was buried in the evening just before sunset and for exactly 3 days (72hrs) how did he rise in the morning?

Christ was place in the tomb on the 4th day of the week in the evening just before sunset because the following day was a High Day / Annual Sabbath. So, three full days would put his Resurrection on the 7th day in the evening just before sunset and the new day Sunday started. This is the way Scripture lays it out!

Thanx, good speed Danny
 

dlj57

Active member
Jan 11, 2024
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Straw man argument.


Exactly how did God forgive you? Please explain to me how you became a Christian. How do you answer the question, "what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30-31) Worshipping the Lord on Sunday, commemorating the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a golden calf? Really? o_O SDA's refer to Sunday worship as the mark of the beast. Red flag!

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast (nonsda.org)

Now of course, our best isn't good enough (Romans 3:23) which is why we need a Savior. (Romans 6:23) We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) We are not saved by grace plus law, faith plus works (Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9) as SDA's teach. I was once in a discussion with a former member of Christian Chat who was a SDA and he once made this statement to me below in blue which confirms grace plus law, faith plus works.

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Do you agree with that statement made by the SDA above in blue?
Not the first statement in blue... I'm not going to stand in judgment of what anyone's believes unless they come right out and denounce God. I think the primes is correct for the most part in your second statement in blue but not all of it.
The Law of Mosses had to do with the Laws coming from the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible called the Torah.
from the 2nd through the 5th books of the Torah there are 600+ commandments and regulations "the law of Moses" this is on top of the Ten Commandments given by God. We still obey the Ten commandments because they are all moral laws, but we are no longer under all the commandments and regulations that they had to observe before Christ became our sacrificial lamb. So, it did away with the old Mosaic Laws and kept Gods Laws in affect.