The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[PennEd]

I have never seen anything like it Willie. There are instances in the bible that seem to show a heart that is beyond hard and has no hope left.

Most people think that it comes from immorality and loose living..............I have a tendency to think that a hard heart that is beyond repair is more along the lines of ," You didn't give your shoes away in secret? I would of!"

Sometimes I wonder if we are just being played. It is utterly astounding if this is for real!

I honestly believe the Lord would like us to steer clear of these law keepers. I don't think there is any fruit to be had here and there is a danger to keep engaging those who think they can and must keep the law to be saved. Peace, Grace and Love to you my brothers and sisters who have once, for all been cleansed by the blood of our precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Willie-T]

I have never seen anything like it Willie. There are instances in the bible that seem to show a heart that is beyond hard and has no hope left.

Most people think that it comes from immorality and loose living..............I have a tendency to think that a hard heart that is beyond repair is more along the lines of ," You didn't give your shoes away in secret? I would of!"

Sometimes I wonder if we are just being played. It is utterly astounding if this is for real!

Yeah, he just might be playing games....... compounding what might be coming his way. Who knows, he might be judged by his very own words on this forum.

 

[sydlit]

I have a slightly different understanding because of the way I have experienced God, even while I was still running from Him in disobedience, rebellion, and defiance. I consider myself to have been lost at that time from my present perspective, but God knew exactly where I was. This was quite a few years ago, twenty seven to be more exact. My marriage had broken down following two first-trimester miscarriages, and a still birth that occurred less than two weeks before the nuptials. I also had a lot of baggage from my past that I had been unable to deal with/put "closure" on. It was around Passover in 1988, and a neighborhood evangelical Christian church was showing a movie on the life of Christ based on the Gospel of Luke. I had been brought up in a fairly strict religious environment but did not know Jesus, and was curious, and living in a world of unremitting emotional pain, so I went. As I sat in that church after seeing the first or second part of that movie, I am not sure at what point the following happened: my whole body was filled with the Light of God's unconditional love and forgiveness for me and all I had done, all the ways I had messed up my life, all my failures and mistakes, all of it bathed in the Light of His absolute understanding of how and why I had become the person I was, all of it bathed in the Light of His unconditional love and total forgiveness. I tell you, I wept. I felt so broken and so lost and so unredeemable, but most of all I felt unworthy. And of course I am unworthy.

Even after that, oh yes, it was a cherished experience, but even after that I did not believe in "that" God. I had begun a spiritual seeking phase, and carried on in that for another sixteen years until God clearly called me out of what I was doing. And yes, even after that, even after that clear calling out, my stiff-necked stubbornness was so set against Him it took another year following the calling out for me to surrender my life to Him.

Oh my goodness, thank you thank you thank you for posting this. I had a similar experience that was very brief and because I didnt respond as I now know I should have, I've been so ashamed and feeling like I've been grasping at straws seeking to get back in His grace ever since... Even though I can pray for others and give a word of scripture to try to comfort another, AND I BELIEVE IT FOR THEM, I still struggle to own it myself. Tears have been flowing off and on all day as I've read different posts/threads, and tried to contribute a few myself (tho one long one 'disappeared' the moment I submitted it) Thank you so much for your honesty re: the length of time and the overwhelming patience, grace and love God has shown to and through you, giving me and perhaps others reading a re-newed hope. I need my Lord and Saviour so badly, and on so many levels, and that I'm NOT ashamed of. A heart-felt, tear-laced thank you to you magenta, I'd love to share more about this with you sometime. May Jesus continue to hold you close and continue making you a blessing to us. +Matt.5:8+

 

[Willie-T]

No, you misunderstand. I am not condoning sin. I confess and forsake sin. Forsake means that I do not abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death habitually. Neither do I teach that one can die in unrepentant sin like lying, lusting, and hating and still be saved. Neither do I teach that it is wrong to say that one can stop sinning (Thereby making an excuse that I will sin again in the future). So your version of grace is not the same one that I am teaching in the slightest.

Thank God!

 

[senzi]

It's actually both. For the Scriptures do say ...."....by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).

You said why bother to do good if we are forgiven all future sin. Simple answer is because we love God with great love and gratitude for a free salvation. You may need the penalty of sin in place to encourage you to do good I do not

 

[Magenta]

Oh my goodness, thank you thank you thank you for posting this. I had a similar experience that was very brief and because I didnt respond as I now know I should have, I've been so ashamed and feeling like I've been grasping at straws seeking to get back in His grace ever since... Even though I can pray for others and give a word of scripture to try to comfort another, AND I BELIEVE IT FOR THEM, I still struggle to own it myself. Tears have been flowing off and on all day as I've read different posts/threads, and tried to contribute a few myself (tho one long one 'disappeared' the moment I submitted it) Thank you so much for your honesty re: the length of time and the overwhelming patience, grace and love God has shown to and through you, giving me and perhaps others reading a re-newed hope. I need my Lord and Saviour so badly, and on so many levels, and that I'm NOT ashamed of. A heart-felt, tear-laced thank you to you magenta, I'd love to share more about this with you sometime. May Jesus continue to hold you close and continue making you a blessing to us. +Matt.5:8+

We love because He first loved us, and yes, His long suffering toward us is amazing, the gift of Grace through faith completely unmerited, but you have that gift now, have accepted in your awakened spiritual self what the dead-to-God natural man could not. How could I see myself for who I truly am and think I deserve to be loved by anyone, let alone God? But love us He does. God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Would that I could bear some of the burden of your shame, but there is no need of such shame now, lay it down brother, and place your trust fully on Him who relentlessly pursued you and freely purchased you with His own blood. As Jesus would say, Go forth and sin no more. Oh! To be that person whose process of sanctification is fully completed, but no, we have our journey, day by day, this is the cross we bear, and thank you so much for the gift of your truth and your heart for God. I feel like such a babe in Christ, but I know I have grown, and am growing, continue to grow in Him, just as surely, surely, surely, you are.

 

[Jason0047]

I have never seen anything like it Willie. There are instances in the bible that seem to show a heart that is beyond hard and has no hope left.

Most people think that it comes from immorality and loose living..............I have a tendency to think that a hard heart that is beyond repair is more along the lines of ," You didn't give your shoes away in secret? I would of!"

Sometimes I wonder if we are just being played. It is utterly astounding if this is for real!

You are also seeing evil where none was intended. I am merely pointing out that if it were possible it would be better to give in secret. Do you disagree with the Word of God? Also, do you think I am against His giving? No. Of course not. Nowhere did I ever say that.

 

[Jason0047]

You said why bother to do good if we are forgiven all future sin. Simple answer is because we love God with great love and gratitude for a free salvation. You may need the penalty of sin in place to encourage you to do good I do not

But see, it really doesn't work like that because a person can easily get the wrong idea that they can sin and still be saved if you tell them that their future sin is forgiven them. It is essentially giving them a license to sin.

 

[Jason0047]

Thank God!

God does not allow His people to think that they can sin and still be saved. Grace doesn't work like that.

 

[Jason0047]

I honestly believe the Lord would like us to steer clear of these law keepers. I don't think there is any fruit to be had here and there is a danger to keep engaging those who think they can and must keep the law to be saved. Peace, Grace and Love to you my brothers and sisters who have once, for all been cleansed by the blood of our precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

First, I do not believe in Works Salvationsim. Second, I do not believe the Law of Moses is binding as a whole anymore. Yes, the moral law has been carried over from the Old on into the New. But we are under a New Covenant with New Commands. For do you honestly think Christians are lawless? Paul said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing. So are you saying you disagree with Paul? Also, the author of Hebrews says Jesus Christ became the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Titus says there are those who deny him in works. James says faith is dead without works. Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not do what I say?


Am I talking about my works? No.

I am talking about the work of God done in the believer.

 

[Magenta]

This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

 

[gb9]

But see, it really doesn't work like that because a person can easily get the wrong idea that they can sin and still be saved if you tell them that their future sin is forgiven them. It is essentially giving them a license to sin.

but we need to be honest about what the Bible says. we are saved by grace, God forgives all sins if we confess and repent. if you tell someone the truth, and they mis-use it, that is on them, not us. the adding of personal opinion to Scripture is wrong. and grace being a green light to sin is a Jason opinion that the Bible does not share.

 

[PennEd]

We love because He first loved us, and yes, His long suffering toward us is amazing, the gift of Grace through faith completely unmerited, but you have that gift now, have accepted in your awakened spiritual self what the dead-to-God natural man could not. How could I see myself for who I truly am and think I deserve to be loved by anyone, let alone God? But love us He does. God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Would that I could bear some of the burden of your shame, but there is no need of such shame now, lay it down brother, and place your trust fully on Him who relentlessly pursued you and freely purchased you with His own blood. As Jesus would say, Go forth and sin no more. Oh! To be that person whose process of sanctification is fully completed, but no, we have our journey, day by day, this is the cross we bear, and thank you so much for the gift of your truth and your heart for God. I feel like such a babe in Christ, but I know I have grown, and am growing, continue to grow in Him, just as surely, surely, surely, you are.

Our flesh is dead. Our old fleshly self. The just shall walk by faith. Once this clicked in me, by revelation of the Holy Spirit, these verses in Romans were much better understood: You HAVE the answer! Just embrace it sister!!!![h=3]Law Cannot Save from Sin[/h]13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[senzi]

But see, it really doesn't work like that because a person can easily get the wrong idea that they can sin and still be saved if you tell them that their future sin is forgiven them. It is essentially giving them a license to sin.

There is so much wrong with your statement. If you truly love someone you will want to please them not offend them. Your statement applies to those who have not been truly born again of the holy spirit, not those who have

 

[Jason0047]

but we need to be honest about what the Bible says. we are saved by grace, God forgives all sins if we confess and repent. if you tell someone the truth, and they mis-use it, that is on them, not us. the adding of personal opinion to Scripture is wrong. and grace being a green light to sin is a Jason opinion that the Bible does not share.

So you are saying it is not possible for someone to get the wrong idea to sin all they want while thinking they are saved by you telling them their future sin is forgiven them?

 

[Jason0047]

Our flesh is dead. Our old fleshly self. The just shall walk by faith. Once this clicked in me, by revelation of the Holy Spirit, these verses in Romans were much better understood: You HAVE the answer! Just embrace it sister!!!![h=3]Law Cannot Save from Sin[/h]13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul is talking about his struggle with sin before he accepted Christ. For he says he is sold to sin in Romans 7:14 and then he says he is free from sin in Romans 8:2. Paul is not double minded. He is talking from two different life experiences.

 

[Jason0047]

There is so much wrong with your statement. If you truly love someone you will want to please them not offend them. Your statement applies to those who have not been truly born again of the holy spirit, not those who have

Ah, so you are saying that all saved believers will endure? Is that correct?

 

[gb9]

So you are saying it is not possible for someone to get the wrong idea to sin all they want while thinking they are saved by you telling them their future sin is forgiven them?

the truth is my concern. because that is what we are supposed to speak. truth. if someone has truly accepted Christ, they will not WANT to sin. rebirth. change of heart.

 

[senzi]

Ah, so you are saying that all saved believers will endure? Is that correct?

What did Jesus say about his sheep? No one would snatch them out of his hand. Is jesus right or wrong?

 

[senzi]

Ah, so you are saying that all saved believers will endure? Is that correct?

Think of the person you love the most in this world. Lets call them x. A government official comes to you and tells you if you harm(or kill) x you will not receive the punishment due under the law of your land. The penalty has been removed from you. Would that knowledge encourage you to harm the person you loved most in this world? Of course it wouldnt. What is the first and greatest commandment?