The second coming of Christ
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"While it is true that the scripture states that the elect/wheat will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, we know from Matt.13:30 that the angels first collect the weeds and then afterwards the wheat. This is why it is important to look at all of the information regarding the same Biblical subject"
No,it says NOTHING OF ANY TARES gathered at the second coming. NOTHING.
You completely ignore that the tares are cast into the lake of fire.
News flash....that is NOT the second coming.
Here we see the wheat dealt with first,the chaff burned later:
luke 3;17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. (the wheat dealt with first)
See that? the wheat gathered first.
"" So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left." - Matt.24:39-40
'''So, in the parable in Matt:24:39-40, we have the Lord saying that at His coming "one will be taken and the other left." Then when we look at the parable in Matt.13:29-31, we see that the harvesters which are figurative for angels, will go throughout the world and collect the weeds and take them back to kill their bodies and their spirits put into Hades. The angels going out to collect the wicked and bring them back is also found in Matt.24:31""
NOW LETS SEE THE CONTEXT.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE DYNAMIC THAT POINTS ANY OF THAT TO POST TRIB EVENT.
In fact that ENTIRE DIALOG IS PRETRIB. Every single bit of it is pretrib.
Still not convinced??
Lets see what Jesus says,as he actually disagrees with your interpretation;
Mat 13
"...and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
That is the great white throne Judgement at the end of the world....after the millineum
No,it says NOTHING OF ANY TARES gathered at the second coming. NOTHING.
You completely ignore that the tares are cast into the lake of fire.
News flash....that is NOT the second coming.
Here we see the wheat dealt with first,the chaff burned later:
luke 3;17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. (the wheat dealt with first)
See that? the wheat gathered first.
"" So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left." - Matt.24:39-40
'''So, in the parable in Matt:24:39-40, we have the Lord saying that at His coming "one will be taken and the other left." Then when we look at the parable in Matt.13:29-31, we see that the harvesters which are figurative for angels, will go throughout the world and collect the weeds and take them back to kill their bodies and their spirits put into Hades. The angels going out to collect the wicked and bring them back is also found in Matt.24:31""
NOW LETS SEE THE CONTEXT.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE DYNAMIC THAT POINTS ANY OF THAT TO POST TRIB EVENT.
In fact that ENTIRE DIALOG IS PRETRIB. Every single bit of it is pretrib.
Still not convinced??
Lets see what Jesus says,as he actually disagrees with your interpretation;
Mat 13
"...and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
That is the great white throne Judgement at the end of the world....after the millineum
Where do you see the following context "fitting" in? [note parallels of Matt24:36-51 and Mk13:32-37]
Luke 12:35-48 -
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [same as the G347 of Matt8:11 and parallel re: the earthly MK], and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch [all watches "IN THE NIGHT" [<--the DOTL-trib portion (7-yrs)]
], and find them so, blessed are those servants. [this parallels the "BLESSED" of Dan12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days"--the context being 2nd Coming to the earth, FOR the commencement of the earthly MK age]
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come [see Rev16:15-16, context: Armageddon time-slot], he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. [ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the MK age, designation (to judge/govern and to reign)]
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward [see Dan12:1-4,10, context: 2nd half of trib ("WISE")], whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant [see again Dan12:12's "BLESSED"], whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
This is parallel to the other passages... and here states "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (that is, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom... not to MARRY these, though some here be "saints" ["faithful and wise"])
Neither statement [per context] refers to our Rapture, but of the context of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.
It says, "the FURNACE OF the fire," and we also see another passage that speaks of "tormented in this flame" at a point in time when his brothers are still alive/living and still have "TIME" to change their eternal destination location. IOW, this is not the GWTj context (<--the SECOND of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] ; but instead the FIRST of the TWO... which is then separated by the "time period" before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words take place at the GWTj time frame)
Luke 12:35-48 -
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [same as the G347 of Matt8:11 and parallel re: the earthly MK], and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch [all watches "IN THE NIGHT" [<--the DOTL-trib portion (7-yrs)]
], and find them so, blessed are those servants. [this parallels the "BLESSED" of Dan12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days"--the context being 2nd Coming to the earth, FOR the commencement of the earthly MK age]39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come [see Rev16:15-16, context: Armageddon time-slot], he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. [ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the MK age, designation (to judge/govern and to reign)]
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward [see Dan12:1-4,10, context: 2nd half of trib ("WISE")], whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant [see again Dan12:12's "BLESSED"], whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
This is parallel to the other passages... and here states "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (that is, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom...
not to MARRY these, though some here be "saints" ["faithful and wise"])Neither statement [per context] refers to our Rapture, but of the context of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.
It says, "the FURNACE OF the fire," and we also see another passage that speaks of "tormented in this flame" at a point in time when his brothers are still alive/living and still have "TIME" to change their eternal destination location.
IOW, this is not the GWTj context (<--the SECOND of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] ; but instead the FIRST of the TWO... which is then separated by the "time period" before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words take place at the GWTj time frame)
""This is parallel to the other passages... and here states "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (that is, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom... not to MARRY these, though some here be "saints" ["faithful and wise"]) ""
not to MARRY these, though some here be "saints" ["faithful and wise"]) ""
In the jewish wedding the groom leaves the wedding festivities to fetch his bride. He takes her "home" heaven.
That should be the knock out punch but I'll bet my life savings it wont be.
These ^ are indeed at the same time slot. His Second Coming to the earth point in time (the context is not our Rapture).
The disciples' question to Jesus in Matthew 24:3 (re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]") was BASED ONE what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]").
At the time He spoke the words of His Olivet Discourse, He had not yet spoken to them ANYTHING regarding "the Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (but all about His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth).
So yes, these two CONTEXTS are referring to that same time slot / Subject (not our Rapture).
I believe Scripture consistently shows "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" to be referring to "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom," which will commence upon His "RETURN" there, to the earth. The "INVITATION" to that will be sent out DURING the trib years BY the believing remnant of Israel (having themselves come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture) and that this is what is being referred to in Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7 re: the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and the "MARRIAGE" itself, AORIST and IN HEAVEN by the Rev19 time slot], and that says, "BLESSED are THEY [plural] having been INVITED to the wedding supper of the Lamb" (the "having been INVITED" is what took place on the earth, all through the trib years [Matt24:14(26:13); Matt22:8-14; Dan12:1-4,10; etc]--but "the Church which is His body" will not have been on the earth throughout those years.)
The "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is not "the guests [PLURAL]"/"the INVITED guests [PLURAL]".
[for example, I believe all OT saints will be present for it... and Dan12:13 says that Daniel will be resurrected to stand again (on the earth) at the end of that very specific set of DAYS mentioned in that context, per vv.6-7, i.e. at the end of the SECOND HALF of the trib, that is, at its END]
The "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is not "the guests [PLURAL]"/"the INVITED guests [PLURAL]".
[for example, I believe all OT saints will be present for it... and Dan12:13 says that Daniel will be resurrected to stand again (on the earth) at the end of that very specific set of DAYS mentioned in that context, per vv.6-7, i.e. at the end of the SECOND HALF of the trib, that is, at its END]
These passages (or at least several do) say, "the kingdom OF the heavenS" (which is not "UP IN Heaven" but on the earth upon His RETURN).
"The kingdom of the heavens" = "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]" = the "shall sit down [G347 around a table / at a meal]" = the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (to which, the "GUESTS [PLURAL]" will have been "INVITED" all during the trib years [again, to be clear to the readers, "the Church which is His body" will not be present on the earth during those trib years])
"The kingdom of the heavens" = "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]" = the "shall sit down [G347 around a table / at a meal]" = the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (to which, the "GUESTS [PLURAL]" will have been "INVITED" all during the trib years [again, to be clear to the readers, "the Church which is His body" will not be present on the earth during those trib years])
Hey Watermark,
The wedding of the Lamb taking place on earth is not what the scripture shows. The chronological order is as follows:
1). The wedding of the Lamb - Rev.19:6-8
2). The Lord descending from heaven to the earth with the bride following behind Him - Rev.19:14
So, in Rev.6-8 we see the wedding of the Lamb taking place, where the bride/church is receiving her fine linen, white and clean.
Then in verse 14, we see that the armies of heaven are wearing the same fine linen that the bride just received, demonstrating that the armies are the bride/church. After that it states that the bride is following the Lord out of heaven down to the earth.
So the order is wedding of the Lamb, followed by the descent to the earth to end the age. Also, if it is called the kingdom of the heavens, the it is in heaven and not the earth. Then you have the following:
"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
You can't change "the kingdom of heaven" to mean the millennial kingdom on earth. There is a reason why it is called the kingdom of "heaven."
The wedding of the Lamb will take place in heaven, followed by the return to the earth with Lord. The most supportive information is that it shows the wedding of the Lamb taking place first, followed by the Lord returning to the earth. You can't take those out of sequence.
The wedding of the Lamb taking place on earth is not what the scripture shows. The chronological order is as follows:
1). The wedding of the Lamb - Rev.19:6-8
2). The Lord descending from heaven to the earth with the bride following behind Him - Rev.19:14
So, in Rev.6-8 we see the wedding of the Lamb taking place, where the bride/church is receiving her fine linen, white and clean.
Then in verse 14, we see that the armies of heaven are wearing the same fine linen that the bride just received, demonstrating that the armies are the bride/church. After that it states that the bride is following the Lord out of heaven down to the earth.
So the order is wedding of the Lamb, followed by the descent to the earth to end the age. Also, if it is called the kingdom of the heavens, the it is in heaven and not the earth. Then you have the following:
"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
You can't change "the kingdom of heaven" to mean the millennial kingdom on earth. There is a reason why it is called the kingdom of "heaven."
The wedding of the Lamb will take place in heaven, followed by the return to the earth with Lord. The most supportive information is that it shows the wedding of the Lamb taking place first, followed by the Lord returning to the earth. You can't take those out of sequence.
You keep saying that about my posts (the bold and underlined)… except that is NOT what I am saying in my posts.
I always say (and said in these past few posts) that "the MARRIAGE" itself [Rev19:7] (pertaining to the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]") is what is "AORIST" ALREADY TAKEN PLACE IN HEAVEN at the Rev19 time slot. That's what I said. Read my post again.
I always say (and said in these past few posts) that "the MARRIAGE" itself [Rev19:7] (pertaining to the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]") is what is "AORIST" ALREADY TAKEN PLACE IN HEAVEN at the Rev19 time slot. That's what I said. Read my post again.
You keep saying that about my posts (the bold and underlined)… except that is NOT what I am saying in my posts.
I always say (and said in these past few posts) that "the MARRIAGE" itself [Rev19:7] (pertaining to the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]") is what is "AORIST" ALREADY TAKEN PLACE IN HEAVEN at the Rev19 time slot. That's what I said. Read my post again.
I always say (and said in these past few posts) that "the MARRIAGE" itself [Rev19:7] (pertaining to the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]") is what is "AORIST" ALREADY TAKEN PLACE IN HEAVEN at the Rev19 time slot. That's what I said. Read my post again.
Blessings!
Sorry about that, but with all of the parenthetic pauses and the like, it becomes hard to follow. The main idea of what you're saying gets lost.
Blessings!
Blessings!
That's why I summed it up (in one post) by saying:
"The "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is not "the guests [PLURAL]"/"the INVITED guests [PLURAL]"."
[He's not MARRYING the "guests [PLURAL]" nor the "TEN [nor FIVE] Virgins [PLURAL]" (<--none of these ever lift off the earth! they are the trib saints!)]
I realize.
That's why I summed it up (in one post) by saying:
"The "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is not "the guests [PLURAL]"/"the INVITED guests [PLURAL]"."
[He's not MARRYING the "guests [PLURAL]" nor the "TEN [nor FIVE] Virgins [PLURAL]"]
That's why I summed it up (in one post) by saying:
"The "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is not "the guests [PLURAL]"/"the INVITED guests [PLURAL]"."
[He's not MARRYING the "guests [PLURAL]" nor the "TEN [nor FIVE] Virgins [PLURAL]"]
https://www.gotquestions.org/marriage-supper-Lamb.html
Well, Ahwatukee, I disagree with your link.
[quoting from gotquestions link] "It is our view that the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven between the rapture and the second coming (during the tribulation on earth)."
I believe Revelation 19:9's wording (distinct from v.7!) is saying "BLESSED [<--see the TEN PASSAGES I listed that speak to this REFERRING to the "promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK"] are they [PLURAL] HAVING BEEN INVITED [<--this "INVITATION" took place on the earth DURING the trib years] to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" (which is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and we "WITH [G4862 - syn - UNIONED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him"... but this is NOT the same "WITH" that is spoken of with regard to the "5 Virgins [PLURAL]" who will go in "with G3326 - meta- ACCOMPANYING" Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER (on the earth/the MK), and who will have never lifted off the earth.
The believing remnant of Israel (having come to faith WITHIN the trib years [FOLLOWING our Rapture]) is who will be DOING this "INVITING" (IN/DURING the trib yrs). [I supplied some references]
[quoting from gotquestions link] "It is our view that the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven between the rapture and the second coming (during the tribulation on earth)."
I believe Revelation 19:9's wording (distinct from v.7!) is saying "BLESSED [<--see the TEN PASSAGES I listed that speak to this REFERRING to the "promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK"] are they [PLURAL] HAVING BEEN INVITED [<--this "INVITATION" took place on the earth DURING the trib years] to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" (which is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and we "WITH [G4862 - syn - UNIONED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him"... but this is NOT the same "WITH" that is spoken of with regard to the "5 Virgins [PLURAL]" who will go in "with G3326 - meta- ACCOMPANYING" Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER (on the earth/the MK), and who will have never lifted off the earth.
The believing remnant of Israel (having come to faith WITHIN the trib years [FOLLOWING our Rapture]) is who will be DOING this "INVITING" (IN/DURING the trib yrs). [I supplied some references]
BTW, peter has noah carried away by the flood.
1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Oh, I'm remembering now your viewpoint, which is very similar to Chuck Missler's later teachings (like, post-2008?) where he embraces the "Millennial Exclusion Theory" [that any member of "the Church which is His body" may be excluded from the Millennial Kingdom]... but, perhaps in your view it is "and/or The Partial Rapture Theory" [that any member of "the Church which is His body" may be excluded from the "Rapture"]... and I recall explaining to you why I disagree with any such ideas.
Missler began embracing this viewpoint [the MK-Exclusion Theory (applied to the Church which is His body)] because of the same mis-applications that you have been presenting (for as long as I've been a member and interacted with you). It is some of these very things that blur certain things into one mish-mash of mush and it is no wonder that much of the Church cannot distinguish "Rapture truths"
[our "Rapture" which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]
Anyway, I'm off for the rest of the day... got a ton of work to focus on! Have a great one, all!
Missler began embracing this viewpoint [the MK-Exclusion Theory (applied to the Church which is His body)] because of the same mis-applications that you have been presenting (for as long as I've been a member and interacted with you). It is some of these very things that blur certain things into one mish-mash of mush and it is no wonder that much of the Church cannot distinguish "Rapture truths"
[our "Rapture" which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]
Anyway, I'm off for the rest of the day... got a ton of work to focus on! Have a great one, all!