The Seven Feasts are all about Jesus.

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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
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#41
Are you sure you know what Acts 20:7 says?

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

The word for "first" is...

G3391
μία
mia
mee'-ah
Irregular feminine of G1520; one or first: - a (certain), + agree, first, one, X other.

And it means first.

Notice the word "day" is in italics? Means it was not in the original, the translators added it.

The words "of the" are rendered from...

G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

And means "of the".

Now here is something interesting, the word for "week" here is...

G4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
sab'-bat-on
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

Sabbath.

Let's put this together, in fact the Diaglott already has...

Act 20:7 In and the first of the sabbaths, having been assembled of us to break bread, the Paul discoursed to them, being about to depart on the morrow; continued and the discourse till midnight.

Now what is the first of the Sabbaths? Bullinger has this...

first, &c. = first day of the sabbaths, i.e. the first day for reckoning the seven sabbaths to Pentecost. It depended upon the harvest (Deu_16:9), and was always from the morrow after the weekly sabbath when the wave sheaf was presented (Lev_23:15). In Joh_20:1 this was the fourth day after the Crucifixion, "the Lord's Passover. "Compare App-156. This was by Divine ordering. But in A.D. 57 it was twelve days after the week of unleavened bread, and therefore more than a fortnight later than in A.D. 29.

Now what is the first of seven Sabbaths about?

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

This is the first of seven Sabbaths during the count to Pentecost. This is not a "Sunday go to metting" but rather the first Sabbath of the seven Sabbaths that one counted to determine Pentecost.

Here is what Bullinger has concerning "break bread"...

break bread. See note on Act_2:42.

OK, then what does he have concerning Acts 2:42?

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

breaking of bread. This was the common meal. Compare verses:##Act_44:46 and Mat_14:19. Isa_58:7.

We call 'em potlucks today.
I'm really glad to see you bring that out. Just want to point to context of verse 6 also bears witness that this "first day of the week" is the counting of 7 Sabbaths after the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Act 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#42
...so, if the Fall Feasts of the Lord are rehearsals for when He returns...why aren't Christians rehearsing?
Scripture please . . .

Thanks.

-JGIG
Right about here is the place for...

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Now what is it that xmas and Ishtar are a shadow of? I forgot.
Your references do not state that the Fall Feasts are a "rehearsal for when He returns".

What are you 'rehearsing' for, anyway?

If you're in Christ, you're ready, and the Final Things, however they play out, are God's show, not yours.

If you want to celebrate the shadows, go for it.

And Celebrating the Birth and Resurrection of Christ are not shadows (hello?), they are the celebrations of the Reality of the coming of and Work of Christ!

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#43
Sure...

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Christ instructed His disciples to do this yearly.
Yep. In remembrance of what?

The Work of Christ, not the deliverance of Israel from Egypt.

And actually, Jesus said, "As often as you do so", not limiting or establishing a 'Mo'adim'; we are free to celebrate His Work as often as we like! Our fellowship does so weekly.

Passover was the shadow; the 'Last Supper', or communion, as it's known today, is a remembrance of the Reality in Christ.

This is not rocket science, guys.

Do you want to live in the shadows or in the Light?

-JGIG
 
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JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#44
...so, if the Fall Feasts of the Lord are rehearsals for when He returns...why aren't Christians rehearsing?
Scripture please . . .

Thanks.

-JGIG
Leviticus 23:2 - spoken to the "children of Israel" and God say they are His Feasts.

Lev 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 23:44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

If you are not one of the "children of Israel", you have nothing to rehearse.
If you 'are' a 'child of Israel', WHAT are you rehearsing for?

Specifically.

Is there a super-secret code or dance or formula that God is going to require that if we haven't 'practiced' the Feasts we won't know a secret hand-shake or something and we won't get into God's Kingdom?

Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but so many HRMers/Torah Folk have been taught and tell us that we're supposed to be 'preparing' or 'practicing' for Christ's return by celebrating the Feasts - have you ever asked yourself what exactly is your part to play in the Final Things besides being in Christ?

-JGIG
 
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Feb 21, 2014
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#45
JGIG: I reckon: Ye must be born again, applies to everyone...
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#46
Leviticus 23:2 - spoken to the "children of Israel" and God say they are His Feasts.

Lev 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 23:44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

If you are not one of the "children of Israel", you have nothing to rehearse.
Oh, and another question:

Many in the HRM/Torah Observant/pursuant camps believe that there will be animal sacrifices in a Millennial Reign . . . are you practicing/rehearsing those so you'll 'be ready'?

And who will be presiding over those sacrifices that you believe will be taking place in a Millennial Reign?

If there will be sacrifices, there must be a high priest to oversee it all . . . who will that be?

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#47
Actually, the Bible says NOT to observe the Lord's Supper...

1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
Oh it does not . . . that's not at all what that Scripture says:

17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

He was saying that what they were doing was not partaking in the Lord's supper, but a free for all that was not focused on Christ's Work at all! Then Paul continues, reiterating Christ's instructions:

23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said,
“This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Your assertion that the Bible says NOT to observe the Lord's Supper is ridiculous.

You can call it a space shuttle if you want, but the early church kept the Passover on Nisan 14.

We already saw that Paul said we are not to eat the Lord's Supper. He instructed the Gentile church at Corinth to keep the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread...

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Let's look at the ESV:

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

What is truth? That Christ has done the Work of the Cross; we are to remember that. We are to remember that in Christ, we are a 'new lump, as we really are UNleavened' - all of our sins have been dealt with at the Cross by Christ.

What is one of the major things in preparing for Passover? Getting all the leaven out, right? If you, in Christ, are a NEW LUMP, UNLEAVENED, the Passover preparations are unnecessary - we are pure and holy in Christ (Heb. 10).

So if you want to purge the leaven out and observe Passover, it's like you're saying that Jesus' Work really didn't cleanse you, so you're going back to the shadow preferring it to the Reality.

Not very honoring to Him Who Bled and Died for you, took God's wrath for your sins, and then rose again to give you New Life =o/.

You should look into the Quartodeciman Controversy. You will find that Polycarp, disciple of the Apostle John, argued for the Passover on the fourteenth of Nisan (Abib) and Anicetus argued for Ishtar.
Yes, you should. Here's a good resource: The Quartodeciman Controversy

Oh and about the Jewish Feast thing...

Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

Jesus Christ, the One who is known as the LORD and I AM, said that the Passover is His Feast. If your bible says the Passover is a Jewish Feast here, return it and get your money back, it contains misprints.
It is a Feast which was a shadow that pointed to the Reality that He would bring about.

Dance in the shadows if you wish; I prefer to walk in the Reality Who is Christ.

-JGIG
 
L

Linda70

Guest
#48
Oh, and another question:

Many in the HRM/Torah Observant/pursuant camps believe that there will be animal sacrifices in a Millennial Reign . . . are you practicing/rehearsing those so you'll 'be ready'?

And who will be presiding over those sacrifices that you believe will be taking place in a Millennial Reign?

If there will be sacrifices, there must be a high priest to oversee it all . . . who will that be?

-JGIG
JGIG, animal sacrifices in the Millennial Temple is really not an HRM teaching, it is a dispensational teaching. Before you throw tomatoes at me and call me a "hairy tic", please read this article from the Middletown Bible Church website. It is an article by Dr. John Whitcomb called The Millennial Temple of Ezekiel 40-48

You know that I am NOT HRM/Torah observant, but I am a traditional dispensationalist, and I do believe that the nation of Israel will re-institute animal sacrifices during the Millennium.

Traditional dispensationalism teaches that there is a distinction between Israel and the Church. So, please keep that in mind as you read this article. I am in agreement with Dr. John Whitcomb's article...and I do take a literal interpretation of the Bible, as he does.
 
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D

danschance

Guest
#49
Since Christ was the ultimate sacrifice, for all time, what need is the for any type of animal sacrifice?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#50
Since Christ was the ultimate sacrifice, for all time, what need is the for any type of animal sacrifice?
I dont see any need for any further sacrifice.

There/these could be offerings? (just speculation)

But I would think any further sacrifice would be abomination.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#51
I dont see any need for any further sacrifice.

There/these could be offerings? (just speculation)

But I would think any further sacrifice would be abomination.
Isayah 66:20-23, "And they will bring all your brothers for an offering to Yahweh--out of all nations, on horses, in chariots, and in litters, on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Yerusalem, says Yahweh: just as the children of Israyl bring an offering in a clean vessel into The House of Yahweh-And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh."
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#53
No worries, Linda =o). You know I love you, sister! I think that when the Final Things do play out, everyone will be thinking, "Oh, that's what He meant in that passage!", and no one will have had it figured out.

I understand the Dispensational view, and even held to it - until I really considered the eternal implications of the once-for-all, for all time, Perfect Sacrifice and High Priesthood of Christ. Here's where I landed:

Millennial Prophecy: Measuring Unrevealed Prophecies in Light of Revealed Truths
This is a post about discerning what anybody tells you about unfulfilled prophecy in general, the example below being specific to many in the Hebrew Roots Movement who assert that “We’re all going to be keeping the Law in the Millennium anyway, so we better start practicing now!”. Most go on to say how we’ll also be offering sacrifices in the rebuilt Millennial Temple. Not to dump on HRMers exclusively, as there are many others in different streams of thought in the Body of Christ who also believe that animal sacrifices will again occur according to Millennial prophecies found in Scripture.

Well, I have a BIG problem with that assertion. Why would redeemed, cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb believers be making animal sacrifices for any reason?!Hebrews 10 is very clear on the issue that Jesus Christ was the FINAL sacrifice. Not only that, but He is purifying us as well, so purification sacrifices are no longer needed either. The only sacrificing going on for those in Christ is described here:

Romans 12:1-2

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


God wants living sacrifices, not dead ones! The Temple, Priests, sacrificial system and other edicts and regulations that God set in place in the Old Covenant were to point to Christ while allowing for atonement for Israel both corporately and individually (temporary atonement that it was), as well as preserving Israel as a nation so that Messiah would be recognized when He came. The thing about being a living sacrifice is that the atonement is a permanently done deal; those in Christ are redeemed and cleansed by THE Blood of THE Lamb – no further cleansing/purifying required!

Why does God want living sacrifices?
God wants living sacrifices not to preserve a people, but to GROW a people! Living sacrifices can go out and fulfill the Great Commission, going out to preach the Good News of Christ to every tongue, tribe, and nation, regardless of cultural differences. Living sacrifices make themselves available to God – renewing their minds, testing God’s will for them. Living sacrifices go out as the Body of Christ, as His Hands and Feet, to serve and love people into the Kingdom.

Let us sacrifice thus:

Hebrews 13:15

15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.​

And what about the ‘Temple’?
Jesus begins to change the concept of the dwelling place of God from that of a Temple of stone to the Body of Christ here:

John 2:19-22

19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

And the concept of God’s dwelling place further shifts from a physical Temple to the spiritual Body of Christ in the writings to the Body of Christ after Pentecost:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Peter 2:4-5
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

So I look at all that, and then I look at a teaching that states sacrifices will be offered in a physical temple during the Millennium, and it just doesn’t add up for me. As I’ve done research about this issue, I’ve found that a broad sampling of streams of thought agree with a literal Millennial Temple, along with literal animal sacrifices being re-instituted, citing God’s ‘final dealing with Israel’ during that time and other such theories. A simple Google search will provide you with a lifetime’s supply of reading material on the subject. I’ve not been able to pin down exactly who might be sacrificing and why beyond a possible memorial to Christ’s work.

But Christ Himself instituted a memorial to His work - commanding us to remember Him in the Bread and the Wine (Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26), what is called the Last Supper or Communion. So the angle of re-instituting the actual slaughter and offering of animals on an altar as a memorial when a memorial is already in place rings hollow to me.
What I do get are lot of references to Ezekiel 40-48 and Zechariah 14 (with condescending statements about how it’s just so obvious what they are talking about) that are far from conclusive and do not prove the point. My take on Zechariah 14 can be read here. I see two flaws in the Ezekiel 40-48 argument, starting with one found in Ezekiel 43:

Ezekiel 43:10-11

10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider the plan, 11 and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.

The whole rest of the passage that those advocating for Millennial sacrifices becomes moot in light of the condition laid out in Ezekiel 43:10-11. God says,“Let them consider the plan and if you are ashamed of all you have done, then . . . “ and has Ezekiel write down in great detail what God would have had in store for Israel, i.e. the new Temple with modified features and protocols, had Israel done the “If”. Another issue comes up in the Ezekiel 40-48 passage is that some think that the ‘prince’ referred to in Ezekiel 45 is the Messiah, who will preside over the sacrifices offered in the Millennial Temple. Let’s take a look:

Ezekiel 45:21-22

21 “‘In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover, a feast lasting seven days, during which you shall eat bread made without yeast. 22 On that day the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.’”

Jesus Christ, the Messiah, is without sin, so the prince mentioned in the above passage cannot refer to Messiah. Some surmise that the prince is David upon his promised throne over Israel – yet the Blood of THE Lamb has been shed, once for all, and from that reality I must base any interpretation of future events.

Questions that come up for me when considering such a view follow these axiomatic statements:

  1. Based on what we know about Christ’s finished work of the Cross, no more animal sacrifices are required, only the living sacrifices referred to above.
  2. Based on what we know about who we are in Christ, it is certain that believers in Christ will NOT be making sacrifices, so that interpretation is OUT.

    • Who does that leave?
    • Will there be a literal Millennium?
    • Who will populate it if there is?
    • If we reign with Christ as priests and kings, will we
      • be administering Mosaic Covenant Law?
      • overseeing sacrifices? Do you actually know what that entails?
      • The Temple was a virtual slaughterhouse. Is there ANY Scripture where we EVER see that as a possibility after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70?
    • Does the Blood of Christ come to no effect once the anticipated Millennial Reign commences?
    • Will He not still have performed the final sacrifice for mankind?
    • Will He not still be Resurrected?
    • Will those things mean nothing at a certain point on the timeline? If you think so, what Scripture do you (speaking collectively to all readers here) have to back up the assertion that the work of Christ ceases to have power at a certain point in history?
  • Will God demand more than the shed Blood of Christ at any point in history after the work of the Cross?


(con't. in next post due to length . . . )
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#54
(con't. from Millennial Prophecy: Measuring Unrevealed Prophecies in Light of Revealed Truths)

This bears repeating: Based on what we know about who we are in Christ, it is certain that believers in Christ will NOT be making sacrifices, so that interpretation is OUT.

So what’s with all the different views?
How do teachers/interpreters of prophecy come up with so many different views in the first place? I think it has a lot to do with what lens we look through and a great desire and/or a perceived need to have everything ‘all figured out’.

There are prophecies that some have extrapolated to mean certain things, but we must always place the unrevealed truths of those interpreted prophecies within the context of revealed Truth – that being the completed work of Christ.

Revealed Truth always supersedes unrevealed truth – that is, with prophecy, much of it is a mystery until it occurs, and as it occurs, it often looks very different than we thought it would.

I recently heard a funny example about how we can get stuff oh-so-wrong simply because we do not have the whole picture, are ignorant (not in a bad way, just in a not-having-all-the-knowledge about something way), and/or are seeing what we want to see:

A redneck family went to the city and went to one of those really big malls. The father and the son noticed a big metal wall. The wall would open up and people would walk into the hole and then it would close up and the people would disappear. They kept looking at this wall and noticed that up above where the wall was there were numbers that would light up and they’d see the count go up: 1, 2, 3. Then they’d keep watching and the numbers would come back down: 3, 2, 1. The wall would open up, and different people would walk out of the hole. This wall - this wall was something incredible!


Then they saw a little old lady. She went up to the wall and she pushed a button . . . the wall opened up and she walked into the hole. The hole closed and she too, disappeared. They saw the numbers count up to three and then count back down to one. And when the wall opened up, a beautiful young woman walked out of the hole! And the father leaned over to his son and said, “Son, go get your mama.”

Nothing against rednecks here . . . trust me, in some ways I are one! But we can see from this story that how that father and son interpreted what they were seeing had no basis in reality. They were interpreting what they saw based on the information and experiences that they had, along with a sizeable pinch of wishful thinking. There were concepts and mechanical workings completely out of their view. The concept of an elevator had nothing to do with their world. Yet they would no doubt fully understand what they had witnessed when looking at the whole picture, instead of seeing the limited view that they had at the time, having interpreted it with the limited knowledge they possessed at the time.

The same can be said for interpreting prophecy. Layer on top of the limited information and experiences that influence our interpretations our individual pet theologies and biases, and you can end up with numbers of different interpretations for the same passages of Scripture. Let me repeat: There are prophecies that some have extrapolated to mean certain things, but we must always place the unrevealed truths of those interpreted prophecies within the context of revealed Truth – that being the completed work of Christ.

Those who were the most learned in the Scriptures completely missed or outright rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They thought they had it all figured out. They had the culture, the language, the history, the education, the Scriptures - yet they still missed Jesus. They were expecting the Messiah to manifest in ways far different than He actually did.

God’s manifestation, fulfillment, and reality of what He foretold did not match what they thought that fulfillment should look like. Beyond the fulfillment in the incarnation of Christ was the work of the Cross and what that would mean for those who would choose to put their faith and trust in Him. There were many looking for a conquering Messiah – they did not count on Him conquering as the sacrificial Lamb of God. That paradoxical reality really messed with their expectations.

We need to be mindful of the above examples when looking at prophecies yet unfulfilled. We also need to recognize that NONE of the end-times doctrines or interpretations out there constitute core issues of the Christian faith beyond the fact that Jesus IS coming back and there WILL be judgement for both the redeemed and the unredeemed. Much of what is beyond that is speculation on our parts and anyone who tells you they have it all figured out beyond a doubt is fibbing.
All that said, I’m completely comfortable stating that I don’t have the end-times timeline and events all figured out. As of this writing, I’m a “Pan-Tribber” and “Pan-Millennialist” with Pre-Trib leanings and an open mind that understands that what I think or don’t think about it is not going to change God’s timetable. That is, I figure God has it all worked out and knows what He’s doing and it will all pan out in the end. My job is to be faithful to that which He has called me in this lifetime, whatever that may bring, all the while keeping in sight the completed work of Christ at the Cross and measuring everything through that lens.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Related to the subjects of Millennial Sacrifices and Theological Perspectives:


-JGIG
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#55
JGIG, animal sacrifices in the Millennial Temple is really not an HRM teaching, it is a dispensational teaching. Before you throw tomatoes at me and call me a "hairy tic", please read this article from the Middletown Bible Church website. It is an article by Dr. John Whitcomb called The Millennial Temple of Ezekiel 40-48

You know that I am NOT HRM/Torah observant, but I am a traditional dispensationalist, and I do believe that the nation of Israel will re-institute animal sacrifices during the Millennium.

Traditional dispensationalism teaches that there is a distinction between Israel and the Church. So, please keep that in mind as you read this article. I am in agreement with Dr. John Whitcomb's article...and I do take a literal interpretation of the Bible, as he does.

please do not lump all dispensationalists in this way.

Actually it is a very small part of us who teach this. I have heard of sacrifices in the tribulation but never in the mellinium, And I do not think they would be any more salvic in the trib as it was in Jesus day, Just unbelieving jews trying to restore the jewish way, Until they find Christ
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56
(con't. from Millennial Prophecy: Measuring Unrevealed Prophecies in Light of Revealed Truths)

This bears repeating: Based on what we know about who we are in Christ, it is certain that believers in Christ will NOT be making sacrifices, so that interpretation is OUT.

So what’s with all the different views?
How do teachers/interpreters of prophecy come up with so many different views in the first place? I think it has a lot to do with what lens we look through and a great desire and/or a perceived need to have everything ‘all figured out’.

There are prophecies that some have extrapolated to mean certain things, but we must always place the unrevealed truths of those interpreted prophecies within the context of revealed Truth – that being the completed work of Christ.

Revealed Truth always supersedes unrevealed truth – that is, with prophecy, much of it is a mystery until it occurs, and as it occurs, it often looks very different than we thought it would.

I recently heard a funny example about how we can get stuff oh-so-wrong simply because we do not have the whole picture, are ignorant (not in a bad way, just in a not-having-all-the-knowledge about something way), and/or are seeing what we want to see:

A redneck family went to the city and went to one of those really big malls. The father and the son noticed a big metal wall. The wall would open up and people would walk into the hole and then it would close up and the people would disappear. They kept looking at this wall and noticed that up above where the wall was there were numbers that would light up and they’d see the count go up: 1, 2, 3. Then they’d keep watching and the numbers would come back down: 3, 2, 1. The wall would open up, and different people would walk out of the hole. This wall - this wall was something incredible!


Then they saw a little old lady. She went up to the wall and she pushed a button . . . the wall opened up and she walked into the hole. The hole closed and she too, disappeared. They saw the numbers count up to three and then count back down to one. And when the wall opened up, a beautiful young woman walked out of the hole! And the father leaned over to his son and said, “Son, go get your mama.”

Nothing against rednecks here . . . trust me, in some ways I are one! But we can see from this story that how that father and son interpreted what they were seeing had no basis in reality. They were interpreting what they saw based on the information and experiences that they had, along with a sizeable pinch of wishful thinking. There were concepts and mechanical workings completely out of their view. The concept of an elevator had nothing to do with their world. Yet they would no doubt fully understand what they had witnessed when looking at the whole picture, instead of seeing the limited view that they had at the time, having interpreted it with the limited knowledge they possessed at the time.

The same can be said for interpreting prophecy. Layer on top of the limited information and experiences that influence our interpretations our individual pet theologies and biases, and you can end up with numbers of different interpretations for the same passages of Scripture. Let me repeat: There are prophecies that some have extrapolated to mean certain things, but we must always place the unrevealed truths of those interpreted prophecies within the context of revealed Truth – that being the completed work of Christ.

Those who were the most learned in the Scriptures completely missed or outright rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They thought they had it all figured out. They had the culture, the language, the history, the education, the Scriptures - yet they still missed Jesus. They were expecting the Messiah to manifest in ways far different than He actually did.

God’s manifestation, fulfillment, and reality of what He foretold did not match what they thought that fulfillment should look like. Beyond the fulfillment in the incarnation of Christ was the work of the Cross and what that would mean for those who would choose to put their faith and trust in Him. There were many looking for a conquering Messiah – they did not count on Him conquering as the sacrificial Lamb of God. That paradoxical reality really messed with their expectations.

We need to be mindful of the above examples when looking at prophecies yet unfulfilled. We also need to recognize that NONE of the end-times doctrines or interpretations out there constitute core issues of the Christian faith beyond the fact that Jesus IS coming back and there WILL be judgement for both the redeemed and the unredeemed. Much of what is beyond that is speculation on our parts and anyone who tells you they have it all figured out beyond a doubt is fibbing.
All that said, I’m completely comfortable stating that I don’t have the end-times timeline and events all figured out. As of this writing, I’m a “Pan-Tribber” and “Pan-Millennialist” with Pre-Trib leanings and an open mind that understands that what I think or don’t think about it is not going to change God’s timetable. That is, I figure God has it all worked out and knows what He’s doing and it will all pan out in the end. My job is to be faithful to that which He has called me in this lifetime, whatever that may bring, all the while keeping in sight the completed work of Christ at the Cross and measuring everything through that lens.
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Related to the subjects of Millennial Sacrifices and Theological Perspectives:


-JGIG

I see where you are coming from now.

It is fooish to think we will return to law in any mellinium. Christ fulfilled the law and we will have him on earth, why would we return to the schoolmaster, when the fulfilment is here with us?


I am sure they would be happy if we returned to law though.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#57
I dont see any need for any further sacrifice.

There/these could be offerings? (just speculation)

But I would think any further sacrifice would be abomination.
Christ fully satisfied God's requirements in all things, including offerings:

5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”


8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

10 And by that will [testament, that which goes into effect at the death of the testator] we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (from Heb. 10)

This passage makes clear that sacrifices AND offerings are set aside in Christ.

-JGIG
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#58
Isayah 66:20-23, "And they will bring all your brothers for an offering to Yahweh--out of all nations, on horses, in chariots, and in litters, on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Yerusalem, says Yahweh: just as the children of Israyl bring an offering in a clean vessel into The House of Yahweh-And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh."
..........
 
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danschance

Guest
#59
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Linda70

Guest
#60
Well, it does seem that in the millennial reign of Christ, animals sacrifices will be made (heavy emphasis on the word "seem"). I don't understand it, so for now I will wait and see.

Here is another article on this subject: Will there be animal sacrifices during the millennial kingdom?
Here's a short (6 min.) youtube video from the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry (not an HRM ministry):

[video=youtube;JQmUfXSeUes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQmUfXSeUes[/video]

This guy brought out some interesting information