The Sin of Pacifism

[kennethcadwell]

What Jesus rebuked Peter for is evident. He did this because it was His time to go. However what Jesus Christ issued as a doctrinal statement after rebuking Peter is also evident. Do not take the sword....He tells Peter. Why? Because ALL who take the sword will perish with the sword. There are no exceptions. Not just when you take the sword out of anger, otherwise Christ would have said that but He didn't. That qualifies as adding to and taking away from the word of God, which is a grievous thing. Peter was rebuked and Christ felt the need to issue this doctrinal statement that ALL who take the sword will perish with the sword.

Please take a minute and think about this. Why would the word of God issue such a generic statement as ALL who take the sword will perish with the sword. What does it mean to take the sword? It doesn't necessarily mean to live by it. And if it did, that would still disqualify policemen and military members from the kingdom of God. If it means just being randomly violent, then Christ's words are really confusing because if I read this verse on a desert island away from the American culture, I never would have gathered that he simply meant don't do random, evil violence. Especially since that doesn't appear to be what Peter was doing.

A person can live by eating pizza. Whether that person eats pizza once, or for one week, or a year, they live by eating that pizza. If you live by the sword, that means you trust in it to stay alive. You are living by the sword. But he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. This is not a blessing given to someone. Living and dying by the sword is not a good thing. If it was, then why was Jesus so upset with Him?

Hey Ken out where you live what do you hunt? If you hunt deer do you process it yourself?

Yes I hunt deer, and bow season started last Monday and runs all the way to about thanksgiving, then rifle season starts and I use a .50 caliber black powder muzzle loader. Yes me and my dad process our own deer meat.
We make hamburger, ribs, steaks, roasts, and my favorite summer sausage.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Sorry do you prefer ken or kenneth?

Either is fine, my grandma use to only call me KC.

 

[elf3]

My wife won't let me hunt anymore because of my arthritis but I have her family that keeps us supplied lol. We usually have enough for all year. Her brothers and nephews hunt bow, muzzle and rifle. Great now I am hungry....venison is the best.

 

[elf3]

My wife makes a lasagna with the spicy ground that is oh so good.

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

 

[kennethcadwell]

My wife won't let me hunt anymore because of my arthritis but I have her family that keeps us supplied lol. We usually have enough for all year. Her brothers and nephews hunt bow, muzzle and rifle. Great now I am hungry....venison is the best.

Yes it is, and for those who do not like the gamy taste, if you soak the meat in milk for a couple of hours it takes a lot of that flavor away.
Plus I don't know how many times people have told me they don't like the taste of deer meat, but then with out them knowing I would make a steak, spaghetti, or even a roast with deer meat. They would eat it, and say that was real good.
I would smile and laugh, and they would say what. I would say you just ate deer, no I didn't they replied.
Then I would show them the wrapper I took it out of, and how I had more sitting in the freezer.

 

[elf3]

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

Hahaha! Plus it's so lean not as much fat as beef. We actually have to tell some of our friends cause they are allergic to it.

 

[just-me]

Those passages do not say that the Law of Moses is still binding for us to obey. Read Galatians 3. And again, nor do they teach lethal force in self defense, either.

What is the problem? Are we supposed to say that the law of God spoken to Moses causes the sin of pacifism? I was addressing the sin of pacifism, and why it exists and the effects on society. Are we discussing the thread name or the doctrine of the Mosaic law? This is the 3rd time you have corrected me for addressing the op.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Hahaha! Plus it's so lean not as much fat as beef. We actually have to tell some of our friends cause they are allergic to it.

Yeah I make sure by talking to them about how they feel about deer meat, before I surprise them later.
My family for 41 years has owned 20 acres of land in the Ozarks of Missouri, and I live there now taking care of the land and house. Also being a care taker for my dad, since he can not do all the physical work any more.

I have seen a good size doe so far with her fawn, and I came across a 12 point buck two days ago. I could not get close enough to get a clean shot with the bow. I got plenty of time though, and it seems they come through in the same area around the same times when they do. I have seen the doe between 2pm and 4pm three times now, and the buck I have seen twice. Once at about 3:30pm and the other time was at 8:30 in the morning.
They were too far away with grown up brush between them and me. If I shot an arrow at them, it would be like trying to shoot them through chicken wire.

 

[elf3]

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

The Ozarks are beautiful. I went to school way to long ago in NW Arkansas. My mother in law has 27 acres everyone hunts on here in Pa. Pretty good size herd there now about 20 or so largest buck I have seen was 8 point.

 

[elf3]

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

When we drive up the driveway my wife yells out the window.."your gonna taste so good" lol

 

[kennethcadwell]

The Ozarks are beautiful. I went to school way to long ago in NW Arkansas. My mother in law has 27 acres everyone hunts on here in Pa. Pretty good size herd there now about 20 or so largest buck I have seen was 8 point.

My dad got a 32 point buck down here about 15 years ago.
The largest I have gotten so far has been a 12 point buck.
There is a big draw ( valley ) that ones back in behind my land, and a group of hunters usually hunt back there.
One year during gun season it sounded like world war three going off down there, and the shots keep getting closer.
It was like pow, pow-pow, pow pa pow pow pow pow, and so on getting closer. Me and my dad were in tree stands and could see each other we just shrugged our shoulders and thought what the heck they must be bad shooters.

Then we noticed why all the commotion, a herd of at least 15 turkeys came running through on us.

 

[elf3]

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

Did you mean 12 point not 32? Either way that's not a deer that's a moose lol

 

[gzusfrk]

My dad shot a lot of deer , but a 32 point, thats not a deer, thats a monster

 

[kennethcadwell]

Did you mean 12 point not 32? Either way that's not a deer that's a moose lol

My dad shot a lot of deer , but a 32 point, thats not a deer, thats a monster

No I meant a 32 pointer.
My dad missed the Missouri state record at that time by two points, somebody else had shot a 34 pointer at some point in the past. I haven't looked into lately to see what the state record is now.

Yes it is a monster, I was not with my dad during that hunt, but I did show up when he was processing it.
When I first saw it from a distance laying on the ground with him cutting on it, I thought man did my dad just kill a horse and now he is trying to process it real quick to hide the evidence. Then I came close and saw the rack.
Needless to say we gave a lot of deer meat away that year do to how much we got from the deer.

 

[elf3]

WOW! That's not a deer that's some type of hybrid moose-elk-deer-king Kong science experiment lol

 

[Calminian]

Do you believe God used the King of Assyria in Isaiah 10 to punish Israel?

If you do, then this is essentially what Romans 13 is partly saying, too. This is important to understand because that means the military and the police (who are primarily unbelievers) are God's ministers of justice just as angels can be God's ministers of justice. Police are not hitmen anymore than angels are. They both carry out the justice of God. So if I call the police, I am trusting in God to execute judgment thru them. .....

But the Bible says nothing about the police, it talks about the government. And the government, according to our ruling document, the Constitution, is the people. If you're going to play the Romans 13 card, and say the government are allowed to carry weapons, then you also have to admit that the people are allowed to carry and use weapons.

Either way, by your own admission, you are living by the sword, whether you call an armed neighbor, or the police.

 

[kennethcadwell]

WOW! That's not a deer that's some type of hybrid moose-elk-deer-king Kong science experiment lol

Yeah I have not seen another one that big since.
But I mainly just hunt on my land, he went down to the conservation land which is closer to the lake do to they had open hunting that year.

 

[Calminian]

... If you live by the sword, that means you trust in it to stay alive. You are living by the sword. But he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. This is not a blessing given to someone. Living and dying by the sword is not a good thing. If it was, then why was Jesus so upset with Him?

Again, Jason, being you openly admit that when trouble comes you'll call in men with swords (or modern weapons), I have to continually ask you, why are you depending on them to stay alive? Why are you living by the sword?

You keep saying God makes this exception that the government is ordained by God to carry the sword, and that we should call them, but that contradicts what you say about living by the sword—depending on it to stay alive.

I think this is a serious conundrum. You hold a contradictory position, which means somewhere you're interpreting something wrong. You can't have this both ways.

 

[Jason0047]

U

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

You misunderstand. I do not believe it is a "sin unto death" to defend your country or city if you are a believer. But it is still disobedience of Jesus' commands to turn the other cheek, and to love your enemies, and to not render evil for evil. In other words, I believe there are saved practicing police and military officers. Obviously God uses the nations ministers of justice for his purposes. But just as a regular Israelite in the OT was not to perform priest like duties, believers under the New Testament are not to commit violience against others.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

Was Peter living by the sword? Was Peter a soldier?

Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God that proceeds out of his mouth.

Surely, this is talking about how men get nutrients from bread and thrive from it whether they eat it a little or a lot.

The same is true if you are trusting in a sword either once or a lot.

See, God doesn't generalize sin or wrong doing into how often you do it. It only takes one wrong thing for it to be wrong.

You live by the sword (whether a little or a lot), and you will take the chance on dying by the sword (Which is not a blessing).

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Jesus wasn't talking about hunting in his rebuke to Peter in regards to the sword.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

Peter wasn't hunting people. Peter was merely protecting Jesus one time. Just one time. That is all it took for Jesus to rebuke Peter in to say "He that lives by the sword shall die by the sword." Peter was not a soldier. He was a fisherman.

 

[Jason0047]

Again, Jason, being you openly admit that when trouble comes you'll call in men with swords (or modern weapons), I have to continually ask you, why are you depending on them to stay alive? Why are you living by the sword?

You keep saying God makes this exception that the government is ordained by God to carry the sword, and that we should call them, but that contradicts what you say about living by the sword—depending on it to stay alive.

I think this is a serious conundrum. You hold a contradictory position, which means somewhere you're interpreting something wrong. You can't have this both ways.

I already explained it several times, and your just not getting it, my friend. The authorities are God's servants. For...

Romans 13:4 NLT says,
"The authorities are God's servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God's servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong."

Just as the King of Assyria (And his army) is God's tool, instrument, or servant.

Isaiah 10:7 NLT
"But the king of Assyria will not understand that he is my tool;"

Isaiah 10:12 NLT
"After the Lord has used the king of Assyria to accomplish his purposes on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, he will turn against the king of Assyria and punish him—for he is proud and arrogant."

Just as the Pharaoh was God's instrument because He raised Pharaoh up into power so that the Lord's name might be declared through out all the earth.

Romans 9:17
"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

In other words, they are God's ministers. God uses the unbelieving world or authorities that are in power to accomplish His plans and purposes. They are the puppets and God is the puppetier. Yes, they have free will, but God is sovereign over everything that happens. Including His executing of justice. For...

Romans 12:19 ESV says,
"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

But make no mistake, though; God is sovereign over His creation. For God is capable of using even bad situations to bring about His ultimate plan of good. This is essentially we see described to us at the end of the story of Joseph.

Genesis 50:15-21 ESV
"When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him.” So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father gave this command before he died: ‘Say to Joseph, “Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” Joseph wept when they spoke to him. His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them."

This lines up with what we see in the New Testament.

Romans 8:28
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Did you catch that? It says ALL things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to His purpose. But somehow you believe evil can disrupt that plan and that not all things work together for good to them that love God.

For God's will be accomplished. For at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:10-11).