The Sin of Pacifism

[elf3]

We've already been over this. It's not wrong to restrain someone and or to push them out the way so as to run or place them outside so as to get help. It is wrong to want to use lethal force so as to kill an attacker being a New Testament believer. Well, that is if you believe Jesus' words about loving your enemies that is. But let's just ignore what Jesus said and walk by sight instead of by faith. For all things work together for good to them that love God. Do you believe Romans 8:28?

I'll tell you what jason if I had a gun at the time dude would be dead. You are so high on your self righteous horse I am so glad I am her brother and not you. You have no idea what that kind of situation is like.

May God NEVER put you in a situation where force would be needed.

From my driveway after I got out of the car I heard her screams of "STOP!". You think this is a joke or some situation where I should have prayed for the guy or preached to him!

Yeah you think I am pretty upset at your lack of any kind of care for others! You sure bet I am!

Get off your horse get on your knees and pray to God for understanding.

Go ahead call me faithless call me names do what you want.

Like I said skip I have faith and trust in God you couldn't understand.

My sister escaped major harm because I was willing to take serious action. You think that's bad of me? Go ahead and try all you want to prove me wrong. You cannot because I will protect the innocent to the point of killing if I must.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes He did say do not render evil for evil, and to turn the other cheek.
But it is not returning evil for evil when you protect others using force, and you are not to turn the other cheek when you see others persecuted. This is saying it is better to walk away when some one try's to start in with you, then to retaliate against them, because that retaliation would be out of anger.

I need a New Testament verse that confirms this. For surely if it is as important as you say, then the New Testament believer will have a clear verse that conveys these thoughts you have.

No Peter was not living by the sword, and no he was not a physical soldier. Peter was a fisherman before he became a disciple and apostle of Jesus. The only soldier he then was called to be is a spiritual soldier.

Then why did Jesus say to Peter, he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword if he was not a soldier?

Then it is funny how you mention the scripture of not living by bread alone, but every word of God. Because it is you that when mentioned words of God, you say don't apply. Moral teachings of His do apply, that was not talking about nutrients in bread.

Does building an Ark still apply for believers today?

No, God commanded Noah and his family to build an Ark. There are different commands for different people thru out time.

The story of Noah points to Jesus Christ.
Just as the OT law points to Jesus Christ. For it was a school master that brings us to Christ.

Once again, no you don't live by something if you only do it once in awhile.

Not true. A person can die from not eating. But if you were to give them food even just one time, it would keep them alive.

If what you say was true then that would mean we live by sin, and the bible makes it clear if we live by sin you are not saved and go to heaven.

No, Jesus cleanses us from all sin when we confess of our sins and sets back upright and clean again with no record of us having done wrong.

I know Jesus was not talking about hunting to Peter. I was making a point that you can own a gun, but that does not mean you live by it. I still get my food from the store like others, but I also grow some of my own and hunt for some of it.
I am not held to hunting though, and do not live by it. For I could stop hunting and still eat.

The hunting had nothing to do with the Peter incident. Peter response though was in anger, and we are not to make any actions out of anger.

Jesus rebuke was not in reference to hunting, though. So your comparison here doesn't work, my friend.

 

[elf3]

All you pacifist go on and judge me. Judge me for whatever you want because you know what...you aren't my judge.

You think it's wrong I would have shot dude for attacking my sister like that...judge me.

You think I don't have faith in God...judge me

Keep judging me because in the end you will be judged the same...but not by me

 

[blue_ladybug]

No banging of heads here. Just discussing the Word of God.

Yeahhhh, I would not call what is going on here a 'discussion'!! LOL!! More like a fruitless debate of opinions on which none of y'all are ever gonna agree on!! Just sayin'....

 

[elf3]

Oh maybe I should add when dude backed up in the driveway he tried to hit me. I punched his trunk so hard I dented it. After he spun out of my driveway I threw a rock and busted his rear window.....ok now judge me on this too.

Come on I'm waiting

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh maybe I should add when dude backed up in the driveway he tried to hit me. I punched his trunk so hard I dented it. After he spun out of my driveway I threw a rock and busted his rear window.....ok now judge me on this too.

Come on I'm waiting

HAHAHHA You rock thrower and trunk puncher...If I had a sister that he was assaulting I would have hit him so hard his nose would be flat on his face for the next twenty years!<---I pitched in baseball and know how to roll my shoulder....KA-POW!

 

[elf3]

What happened was I busted thru the door he jumped up, about 8" taller than me good 50lbs heavier, I took out his right knee (I played soccer) he hit the ground I grabbed the back of his collar and started dragging.

I don't talk about it. I am kinda surprised it took me this long to bring it up here with this type of subject though. It's not something to boast about but am sure glad I got home when I did.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I need a New Testament verse that confirms this. For surely if it is as important as you say, then the New Testament believer will have a clear verse that conveys these thoughts you have.



Then why did Jesus say to Peter, he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword if he was not a soldier?



Does building an Ark still apply for believers today?

No, God commanded Noah and his family to build an Ark. There are different commands for different people thru out time.

The story of Noah points to Jesus Christ.
Just as the OT law points to Jesus Christ. For it was a school master that brings us to Christ.



Not true. A person can die from not eating. But if you were to give them food even just one time, it would keep them alive.



No, Jesus cleanses us from all sin when we confess of our sins and sets back upright and clean again with no record of us having done wrong.



Jesus rebuke was not in reference to hunting, though. So your comparison here doesn't work, my friend.

He was warning people that those who retaliate out of anger and hatred, will always retaliate that way.
We are first to consider the consequences, and not just jump and retaliate from that anger. Think first before acting.

He was not actually saying Peter lived by the sword, and once again he was not a soldier.
He was a fisherman, then a disciple/apostle of the Lord. Nothing says he was called to be anything but a spiritual soldier.
What Jesus was saying to Peter is if you go that route, you let that life style drive how you live your life and will affect future areas in your life.
Instance those who commit a crime, and go to prison. Now their future is affected by how much harder getting a job and living a normal life again becomes to them. You live by the consequences of your actions.

I know you will die from not eating, but if I don't eat pizza but once in awhile I am not living by it. For I can still live because there is many other foods I can eat.

Noah building the ark, has nothing to do with God's moral values.
That just showed obedience to God when told to do something.
Knowing right from wrong do to God's moral teaching, and not doing wrong but living in love do apply.
So we know murder is wrong, so we know not to murder.
We know adultery is wrong, so we know not to commit adultery, and so on and so on............

The laws that do not apply from the OT is the written ordinances of the mosaic law.

Yes Jesus does cleanse us from sins, but you must repent ( turn away ) from them and asked forgiveness of those sins and then for future ones to. But this does not give you the right to sin, for it makes it clear if you live in willful sin you will not be saved.

 

[Jason0047]

All you pacifist go on and judge me. Judge me for whatever you want because you know what...you aren't my judge.

You think it's wrong I would have shot dude for attacking my sister like that...judge me.

You think I don't have faith in God...judge me

Keep judging me because in the end you will be judged the same...but not by me

We are not judging you on our own power or authority. We are telling you what the Word of God says. For it is God's Word that will judge every believer. That is the standard and authority. It is not in what we think or say, but it is... "What does God's Word say." And we see nothing in the New Testament for the New Testament believer that would justify lethal force so as to defend themselves. In fact, we see the exact opposite of that shown to us in the New Testament with Jesus, Stephen, and Paul, etc.

 

[jdbear]

Jason,
Here's another one of those ungodly soldiers....Cornelius!!!
A*devout*man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. Acts 10:2

 

[elf3]

We are not judging you on our own power or authority. We are telling you what the Word of God says. For it is God's Word that will judge every believer. That is the standard and authority. It is not in what we think or say, but it is... "What does God's Word say." And we see nothing in the New Testament for the New Testament believer that would justify lethal force so as to defend themselves. In fact, we see the exact opposite of that shown to us in the New Testament with Jesus, Stephen, and Paul, etc.

Jesus Paul stephen..different situations as we have said so many times before I figured you might just maybe somehow possibly even by accident understand...THEY ARE DIFFERENCE SITUATIONS!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Again the bible states to establish everything by the mouth of two or three witnesses...what we see here is OPINION, Conjecture and NOT ONE verse much less two or three in context that would condemn a man for defending a helpless child and or woman being raped and killed...even if it resulted in the death of the attacker....We also see a rejection of the O.T. principles that have been set while denying the consistency of GOD and his given principles as found in the O.T. by someone who has gone to seed on his own views...!

We are telling you what the word of God says<------If this wasn't such a farce and sick, sad joke it would almost be laughable!

 

[Jason0047]

He was warning people that those who retaliate out of anger and hatred, will always retaliate that way. We are first to consider the consequences, and not just jump and retaliate from that anger. Think first before acting.

But Jesus was speaking directly to Peter and not to these other people that you are talking about, though. Jesus' rebuke was for Peter and not these other hypothetical imaginary people. Jesus is speaking to the Peter's of this world who seek to trust and live by thw sword. For it only took one bad action by Peter for Jesus to say these words to Peter.

He was not actually saying Peter lived by the sword, and once again he was not a soldier.
He was a fisherman, then a disciple/apostle of the Lord. Nothing says he was called to be anything but a spiritual soldier.
What Jesus was saying to Peter is if you go that route, you let that life style drive how you live your life and will affect future areas in your life. Instance those who commit a crime, and go to prison. Now their future is affected by how much harder getting a job and living a normal life again becomes to them. You live by the consequences of your actions.

It only takes one crime for a criminal to have a hard road ahead of them. That is what Jesus is saying to Peter. Don't trust in the sword. Not now. Not tomorrow. Not Tuesday. Not Sunday. Jesus did not give an exception to the rule. He said if you live by the sword (Which is what Peter did in that moment) then you will die by the sword if you were to repeat that action in any way.

In other words, I can say, he that lives by doing drugs, will die by doing drugs. This applies to the person who sometimes even does drugs just once. For cocaine can kill a person if they just snort it once.

I know you will die from not eating, but if I don't eat pizza but once in awhile I am not living by it. For I can still live because there is many other foods I can eat.

People live by eating food. You can't get around that fact.
People in war trust or live by the sword (their weapon) to survive war.
People who have a shotgun behind their bedroom door to keep away bad guys from their house is also trusting or living by that weapon for their protection. However, what about the children who have killed themselves from parents who had guns in their homes?

Noah building the ark, has nothing to do with God's moral values.

Pacificism is not an eternal moral law because if it was then Jesus' act of pacificism to save us from our sins would have been wrong. But it was not. Jesus died so as to set an example for us.

That just showed obedience to God when told to do something.

Very good. Not all commands are moral laws.

Knowing right from wrong do to God's moral teaching, and not doing wrong but living in love do apply.

My morality is intact just fine without me having to put a bullet in someone's brain or without me having to karate chop a certain organ in their body that would kill them. My morality rests upon trusting in God's commands under the New Testament so as to resolve a situation without using lethal force. Sometimes this involves me picking up the phone and calling the police. Other times this might involvve me restraining an attacker. Other times this might involve me praying and or rebuking them in the name of Jesus Christ.

So we know murder is wrong, so we know not to murder.
We know adultery is wrong, so we know not to commit adultery, and so on and so on............

The laws that do not apply from the OT is the written ordinances of the mosaic law.

Yes Jesus does cleanse us from sins, but you must repent ( turn away ) from them and asked forgiveness of those sins and then for future ones to. But this does not give you the right to sin, for it makes it clear if you live in willful sin you will not be saved.

You are disobeying God's commands under the New Testament to love your enemies and to turn the other cheek and not render evil for evil. I can tell you that you should repent of your false thinking so as to disobey these commands, but I will let God convict you of that when reading His Word. I can only point out what the Word says to you. It is up to you if you want to receive the seed of the Word of God into your heart on this particular point or topic, my friend.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well.

 

[Jason0047]

Again the bible states to establish everything by the mouth of two or three witnesses...what we see here is OPINION, Conjecture and NOT ONE verse much less two or three in context that would condemn a man for defending a helpless child and or woman being raped and killed...even if it resulted in the death of the attacker....We also see a rejection of the O.T. principles that have been set while denying the consistency of GOD and his given principles as found in the O.T. by someone who has gone to seed on his own views...!

We are telling you what the word of God says<------If this wasn't such a farce and sick, sad joke it would almost be laughable!

There are two witnesses that stand in testimony (With the Word of God) to what you all are saying, though. No New Testament passage states what all of you guys been preaching; And we are New Testament believers and not Old Testament believers.

 

[elf3]

Jesus Paul stephen..different situations as we have said so many times before I figured you might just maybe somehow possibly even by accident understand...THEY ARE DIFFERENCE SITUATIONS!!!

I am sorry everyone I had to post it again....maybe by osmosis or subliminal or something

 

[kennethcadwell]

What you don't understand is that when Jesus was speaking rather it be to Peter, Nicodemus, or any others. What He says applies to us to, which is why I say people.
His teachings to them, was for us as well.

Matthew 28:16-20[h=3]The Great Commission[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20[/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[Jason0047]

I'll tell you what jason if I had a gun at the time dude would be dead. You are so high on your self righteous horse I am so glad I am her brother and not you. You have no idea what that kind of situation is like.

Wow. You would kill the guy even though you resolved the problem without the use of lethal force so as to kill him? What happenns if this man later turned out to be a great preacher? Would you still wish you could have shot him?

May God NEVER put you in a situation where force would be needed.

I believe in Romans 8:28. Do you?

From my driveway after I got out of the car I heard her screams of "STOP!". You think this is a joke or some situation where I should have prayed for the guy or preached to him!

Yeah you think I am pretty upset at your lack of any kind of care for others! You sure bet I am!

Get off your horse get on your knees and pray to God for understanding.

Go ahead call me faithless call me names do what you want.

Like I said skip I have faith and trust in God you couldn't understand.

My sister escaped major harm because I was willing to take serious action. You think that's bad of me? Go ahead and try all you want to prove me wrong. You cannot because I will protect the innocent to the point of killing if I must.

Let's understand something here. God could have stopped that bad guy any time He wanted to. Or do you think God is powerless to stop people in this world? If so, where are the verses that say God is powerless to intervene in man's affairs?

 

[Jason0047]

I am sorry everyone I had to post it again....maybe by osmosis or subliminal or something

No, the Bible says Christ is our example. Do you believe that?

 

[dcontroversal]

There are two witnesses that stand in testimony (With the Word of God) to what you all are saying, though. No New Testament passage states what all of you guys been preaching; And we are New Testament believers and not Old Testament believers.

See that is your problem...two credible witnesses of the which you are not one for sure.....THREE VERSES in CONTEXT that CONDEMS a man from the N.T. for defending a child that results in the death of the attacker!

 

[Jason0047]

What you don't understand is that when Jesus was speaking rather it be to Peter, Nicodemus, or any others. What He says applies to us to, which is why I say people.
His teachings to them, was for us as well.

Matthew 28:16-20The Great Commission

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20[/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Yes, there are many people here who act just like Peter right now and draw their sword to protect Jesus (If they didn't know he had to be crucified). They would even desire him to not go to the cross, too. But Jesus rebuked him again. Do you know what Jesus said, when Peter was thinking carnally minded in trying to protect his Lord again? See, everyone here is thinking outwardly. They are focused on what they are SEEING and they are not focusing on what is UNSEEN which is by faith. For we know that without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Why would you want to operate by sight which runs contrary to faith?