"The Soul That Sinneth, It SHALL Die."

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throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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Agreed. The debate is not about if hell is real - it's about how long it burns.
Well I don't think its ' Dantes inferno ' . I read that it is ' everlasting ' . And that it was created not for man ,but the devil and fallen angels.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Agreed. The debate is not about if hell is real - it's about how long it burns.
that is red herring no is saying that hell is real what is the debate is the context of How Jesus described the place Hell and His meaning of eternal torment.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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That is absolutely what you teach...that you can keep willfully sinning and still go to heaven. The Bible says the exact opposite in Hebrews 10:26 KJV - once we receive the knowledge of the truth, and turn back to sin, the Cross ceases to benefit us.

Not "hear" or "become aware" or "contemplate" or "entertain" -- but receive in our hearts, our minds, our spirit -- once we receive the knowledge of the truth and the converting power of Christ which is bound up in it, and turn back to a life of sin, it's all over.
Heb 10:26 does not have reference to hell fire but to the wrath of God
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Yes, He died for everyone, but most are going to hell, right? Trump sent out stimulus checks to everyone, but if you refuse deposit into your bank account, what good is it?

Likewise, Jesus died to pay the sin debt for everyone, but if you refuse to except payment, you have to pay the debt yourself in the Lake of Fire.. that's why there are varying degrees of suffering in the Lake of Fire, depending on the amount of dirt you did in this life. For instance, Hitler's gonna suffer way more than some impenitent crack dealing pimp. Comprendo?
Jesus did not die for all mankind, just for those that his Father gave him. and he said that he would lose none of them.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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You and me...He told us that if we failed to abide continually in Him, we would wind up in the fire...the Lake of Fire.

I think you should cease from all this rationalization and focus on why you and your likeminded people work so hard to formulate a false Gospel that allows you to hold onto sin and Jesus at the same time.
We all interpret the scriptures differently. The key to understanding them, is that they all have to harmonize with each other.
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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If people would only put any preconceived ideas out of their minds and then gather all scripture about the fiery judgement on the unsaved, it becomes clear what the lake of fire is and how long it lasts. Without scripture appearing to contradic itself.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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Many claim this verse, and the others below, refers to a future "spiritual death" of the soul where it will spend eternity in torment.

This can't be referring to the future...why?

When the Bible speaks of "spiritual death", it puts it in the present tense, not future tense:

"She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." -- 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV
Clearly, spiritual death has nothing to do with the future, but with the present, and therefore the soul that resists Jesus until the end will experience a literal death, not a spiritual death BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

Other texts which point to this future literal death of the soul:

"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner...shall save a soul from death..." -- James 5:20 KJV

"...can destroy (in the future) both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28 KJV

...every living soul died in the sea." -- Revelation 16:3 KJV

"And it shall come to pass that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed..." -- Acts 3:23 KJV
We are born in sin, thus we are born separated from God, thus we need to receive BY FAITH the gift of Salvation, which makes us heirs with Jesus Christ, and thus we attain life eternal through Jesus Christ.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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Correct. Had Ellen G. White (or whoever) carefully checked the incorrect translation of Sheol and Hades as "the grave" or "the pit" (in the KJV), when Sheol/Hades is in "the heart of the earth", or "the lower parts of the earth" (or near the core of the earth), a lot of doctrinal error could have been avoided. There are no souls sleeping in the ground six feet under the surface. There is just plain old dust, "for dust thou art, and into dust shalt thou return".

Physical death is THE SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body. Souls either go directly to Heaven to be with Christ, or directly to Hades to await judgment.

The Second Death is ETERNAL SEPARATION of the individual from God (in the Lake of Fire), "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
The scriptures say different, and I do not like Ellen G. White, but even a clock is right twice a day.

The bible clearly says that NOT ALL SHALL SLEEP.........So, is Paul telling us an UNTRUTH? Of course not. Where these souls rest I have no idea, but they are Resurrected from the Graves, say 1 Cor. 15. Lets us look at what Paul actually said:

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.(Sin Flesh can't inherit Heaven)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(with NO SIN FLESH, of course), and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible(sin flesh) must put on incorruption(Spirit man), and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Verse 44 tells us those who died are RAISED UP AT THE LAST TRUMP, as Spirit men, it doesn't say they went straight to Heaven !! How are they raised up? Without CORRUPTIBLE sin flesh, that is what Paul is saying, they are RAISED UP as Spirit men. We go to Heaven, we are judged, then we receive our Glorious bodies.

Thus those living at the Rapture are CHANGED in the twinkling or FLASH of an eye, and what does that mean? Well, Paul tells us in verse 52, we must CHANGE from the CORRUPTION (Flesh body that has known sin) to the INCORRUPTIBLE (Spirit man that has known no sin, for we were made over in the LIKENESS of Christ Jesus). So, all it means is we SHED THIS SIN FLESH, in a moment, in the flash of an eye, we DIE and then our Spirit man goes to be with the Lord in Heaven where we marry the Lamb and receive our Glorious bodies. Wherever the holding place for Spirits is, that is not relevant per se, if we are dead, we are RAISED without Sin Flesh, the is all I now, which means we have been SLEEPING, just like Paul says, we shall not all SLEEP. Those who say we go straight to Heaven can't point it out in the bible, but I can point out where the Dead are RAISED from sleep at the last trump right here.
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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Come on man! don't try to change my Gumbo, when I provided the recipe. Context is where the interpretation can be found then develop the application. Jesus said the fire WILL NOT GO OUT!
Man, your gumbo recipe got NOTHIN on mine! I done forgot more about makin a New Orleans style Gumbo Roux than you'll ever know, cher! :cool: Bet you don't even have any Gumbo File' on the spice rack either. LOL

BTW, Jesus didn't say the fire won't go out...He said it won't be "quenched" -- which means there ain't gonna be no fire angels runnin around with hoses pumping holy water on the flames...but the fire will eventually go out once there's nothing left to burn, 'cause Malachi says we're gonna tread down the ashes of the wicked and Jesus told the angel to tell John that "the former things are gonna pass away, which includes death, sorrow, crying, and pain and Moses said in Deuteronomy that God is going to set the whole thing on fire from the foundations of the mountains on up...so how can Jesus make a new heaven and new Earth if the fire keeps on burning?

Also, I did not use the Parable of a " certain Rich and Lazarus" because that by it's self doesn't explain the reality and literal Hell Jesus spoke about. But that being said Jesus explained HIS word were not without meaning or significance.
I know, brother, but it's such a popular "proof" text that I threw it in there.
The place Jesus went to is real, the place of Hell Jesus spoke about is real, the devil is real, and the eternal judgment also is very much real. Because Jesus Himself said so. Pull from Pslams and prophet and other books in the Bile if it contradicts the Lord Jesus the error is on your understanding Not the words of Jesus or what he said about the literal eternal punishment of hell.
Peter says the punishment of the wicked -- which is when they are cast into hellfire -- is future, when he told us that God knows how to "reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." See all that future language there? The wicked are not yet burning in hell, they are dead in the graves awaiting the Resurrection of the Damned. Hellfire commences at the end of time when the wicked surround New Jerusalem and "fire (comes) down out of heaven and (destroys) them all."
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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Well I don't think its ' Dantes inferno ' . I read that it is ' everlasting ' . And that it was created not for man ,but the devil and fallen angels.
Nah, it's gonna burn out. People get tripped up over "forever" and it's meaning, but "aionios" simply means "duration, either endless or never ending".
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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that is red herring no is saying that hell is real what is the debate is the context of How Jesus described the place Hell and His meaning of eternal torment.
Of course hell is real...just in the future and also that it will burn out. No such thing as eternal torment, because there's no such thing as an eternal sinner. Remember John said, "...and YE KNOW that NO MURDERER hath eternal life abiding in him."
 

Phoneman-777

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Heb 10:26 does not have reference to hell fire but to the wrath of God
"...fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries" is not hell fire? God's fiery wrath is mentioned throughout the OT and NT. Even Isaiah 66 says He's coming with fire to burn up idolaters and swine eaters and Jeremiah says that fire is going to leave the slain of the Lord "from one end of the Earth even to the other end of the Earth."
 

Phoneman-777

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We all interpret the scriptures differently. The key to understanding them, is that they all have to harmonize with each other.
Exactly, but I find the strategy of many is to run from verses they can't harmonize and reject alternative interpretations that do harmonize what they and their opposition says, so that cherished beliefs may be retained when they should be discarded.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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Nah, it's gonna burn out. People get tripped up over "forever" and it's meaning, but "aionios" simply means "duration, either endless or never ending".
If the bible really did say forever meaning never ending, how should it have said it ?
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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We are born in sin, thus we are born separated from God, thus we need to receive BY FAITH the gift of Salvation, which makes us heirs with Jesus Christ, and thus we attain life eternal through Jesus Christ.
I know, the whole "sin is a condition, not a choice" debate, which conclusion is "since I had nothing to do with winding up in this situation, I have nothing to do with getting out of it."

I assure you that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4 KJV) so babies may be born "in sin" -- with the propensity to sin -- but until you knowingly break the law, you're not guilty of sin, right?

Even if it is argued that babies sin ignorantly, does not God "wink" (Acts 17:30 KJV) at that kind of sin?
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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I know, the whole "sin is a condition, not a choice" debate, which conclusion is "since I had nothing to do with winding up in this situation, I have nothing to do with getting out of it."

I assure you that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4 KJV) so babies may be born "in sin" -- with the propensity to sin -- but until you knowingly break the law, you're not guilty of sin, right?

Even if it is argued that babies sin ignorantly, does not God "wink" (Acts 17:30 KJV) at that kind of sin?
Didn't Jesus pay for all sins ?
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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If the bible really did say forever meaning never ending, how should it have said it ?
Perhaps if the words had been properly translated? You might be surprised at how often
forever is used when that very thing came to an end... once God's purpose had been fulfilled.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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Perhaps if the words had been properly translated? You might be surprised at how often
forever is used when that very thing came to an end... once God's purpose had been fulfilled.
Everlasting?