The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It

[Inquisitor]

I said that I don't claim to be sinless in the sense that I don't claim that I have never sinned, not in the sense that I have not had my sins forgiven. The works of the flesh are all against the Mosaic Law, so the position that Christians have died to works of the flesh is the portion that Christians live in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

How can you say, ' that Christians live in obedience to the Mosaic Law'. While you keep sinning, i.e., disobeying the law?

The law is very clear that the soul that sins will die.

You can't tell other folk to obey the law when you by your own admission. Are transgressing the law constantly?

 

[rogerg]

The Mosaic Law was superseded by and ended with Christ. That which the law addressed were the earthly patterns of that which are in the heavenly but not the true of heavenly themselves. Christ's offering addressed the true of the heavenly, not its earthly patterns.

Continuation of my prior post. I should have also included in it that adherence to Mosaic Law was never, ever intended by God to bestow salvation upon anyone. Salvation was always intended by God to be only through Christ.

[Heb 9:11-14 KJV]
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[Heb 10:1, 3-4 KJV]
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. ...
3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.
4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

[Soyeong]

This is the root of your error. Jesus didn't follow the Torah to set an example for us, but to fulfill all righteousness so that He could be the perfect sacrifice for our sin. You don't walk in right relationship with God by trying to follow the Law. If that is your plan, you must follow the Law perfectly, never having sinned once. You have already failed, and there is no second chance to be perfect.

Jesus didn't set you free so you could strive to follow the Law; He set you free from the curse of the Law so that you could live in freedom and confidence by the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Perhaps one day you will understand that.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:22) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so by claiming that Jesus didn’t follow the Torah to set an example for us to follow, you are essentially denying that Jesus came to save us. In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, so the fact that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is in accordance with him following the Torah to set an example for us to follow. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from the curse of lawlessness, not the freedom to do the things that God revealed to be sin through the Torah

The whole point of a disciple/rabbi relationship is for disciples to learn how to follow the Torah by following their rabbi’s example, which is the basis for spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom. In 1 Peter 2:21-22, we are told to follow Christ’s example, in 1 John 2:6, we are told that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are told to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ, but according to you the way to follow Jesus is by refusing to follow his example.

The Bible often describes the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the whole point of the Torah is to teach us how to have a right relationship with Him, so the way to have a right relationship with God is not by refusing to follow His instructions for how to do that. In Exodus 31:33, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that He and Israel might know him, which refers to having a right relationship with Him. The Spirit leads us to have a right relationship with God by leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

[Dino246]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:22) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so by claiming that Jesus didn’t follow the Torah to set an example for us to follow, you are essentially denying that Jesus came to save us.

That’s an amazing leap; you should try out for the Olympics.

smh…

 

[rogerg]

The Bible often describes the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the whole point of the Torah is to teach us how to have a right relationship with Him,

The only way for anyone to have a right relationship with God is exclusively through/by the Saviour, Jesus Christ, and not in any manner by the keeping of law. A marriage relationship between God and Israel the nation was terminated by God as He divorced it due to spiritual adultery.

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

 

[jamessb]

Why is this subject even being discussed? The torah applies to practicing Jews only (people of the Jewish religion), not to Jews by ethnicity or Christians or anyone else.

 

[Cameron143]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:22) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so by claiming that Jesus didn’t follow the Torah to set an example for us to follow, you are essentially denying that Jesus came to save us. In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, so the fact that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is in accordance with him following the Torah to set an example for us to follow. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from the curse of lawlessness, not the freedom to do the things that God revealed to be sin through the Torah

The whole point of a disciple/rabbi relationship is for disciples to learn how to follow the Torah by following their rabbi’s example, which is the basis for spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom. In 1 Peter 2:21-22, we are told to follow Christ’s example, in 1 John 2:6, we are told that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are told to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ, but according to you the way to follow Jesus is by refusing to follow his example.

The Bible often describes the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the whole point of the Torah is to teach us how to have a right relationship with Him, so the way to have a right relationship with God is not by refusing to follow His instructions for how to do that. In Exodus 31:33, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that He and Israel might know him, which refers to having a right relationship with Him. The Spirit leads us to have a right relationship with God by leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Jesus didn't come to give us a model to emulate. He came to live by the law perfectly so His righteousness could be imputed to us, and die so His blood could satisfy God's wrath against us. That's it. Until you get beyond emulation, you will always be yoked to the law. Your basic understanding of why He came is flawed. Thus, your understanding of your need before God escapes you. Try as you may to keep the law, your flesh will never be justified by your efforts.

 

[Soyeong]

That’s an amazing leap; you should try out for the Olympics.

smh…

Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Torah by leading us to live in obedience to it is as straightforward as it gets.

 

[Dino246]

Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Torah by leading us to live in obedience to it is as straightforward as it gets.

Jesus set us free from the curse of the Law. What part of "free" don't you understand?

 

[Magenta]

Jesus set us free from the curse of the Law. What part of "free" don't you understand?

John 8:36 plus Romans 8:2 If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus set us free from the curse of the Law. What part of "free" don't you understand?

I agree. According Deuteronomy 27-28, the blessing of the law is living in obedience to it while the curse of the law is lawlessness, so Jesus set us free from lawlessness by leading us to live in obedience to it. In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe that Jesus freed us from the curse of the law.

 

[Soyeong]

John 8:36 plus Romans 8:2 If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.

In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from lawlessness, not the freedom to do the things that God has revealed to be sin through His law.

In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

In Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul delighted in obeying God's law and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, that was waging war against the law of his mind, and that he served with his flesh, and he contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. After all, the Law of God was given by God and the Spirit is God, so the Law of God is not the law of sin and death.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It

Beware the judiazers and hebrew roots people who seek to bring Christian back under the OT law like the Galatians did causing the Lord to tell them thru the Apostle Pail they have fallen from grace

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Those falling for the devil's fake gospel are no longer saved!

 

[rogerg]

In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from lawlessness, not the freedom to do the things that God has revealed to be sin through His law.

What do you think the meaning of this verse is?

[Rom 5:19 KJV] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Magenta]

In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from lawlessness, not the freedom to do the things that God has revealed to be sin through His law.

In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

In Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul delighted in obeying God's law and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, that was waging war against the law of his mind, and that he served with his flesh, and he contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. After all, the Law of God was given by God and the Spirit is God, so the Law of God is not the law of sin and death.

A very serious problem for you is that you see the law as 613 Mitzvot and not the commandments. Paul was not promoting many
things under the law of Moses. If you think he was, you have not read the NT, and if you have, you have not understood it at all.

 

[Dino246]

According Deuteronomy 27-28, the blessing of the law is living in obedience to it while the curse of the law is lawlessness

That is not what the text says... at all.

so Jesus set us free from lawlessness by leading us to live in obedience to it.

That does not follow. There is no causal relationship between your first statement and your second.

In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works

Following the Mosaic Law is not "doing good works" nor is it being (or becoming) "free from all lawlessness". It does not have the effect of purifying anyone. As Paul stated clearly in Galatians 3:21, "If a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law."

so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe that Jesus freed us from the curse of the law.

Again, that does not follow. It doesn't even make sense.

We attain that freedom from the curse of the Law by faith, not by works of the Law.

 

[The_old_guy]

We are still obligated to obey the Torah. It was never abolished.

After much study and thought trying to interpret Scripture correctly, I came to the conclusion that what disappeared with the new covenant were the outward forms of the old-covenant laws, that is, all the regulations concerning the Sabbath, food laws, animal sacrifices, and the commandments not to murder or have sex outside of marriage, for example.

What continues on are the inner principles or ideas of the old-covenant laws, that is, resting and worshiping on one day in seven, cleansing our inner lives from the uncleanness of sin, trusting in Jesus' one sacrifice to give us his power to overcome sin, and preserving and protecting life and marriage, respectively.

 

[Soyeong]

Beware the judiazers and hebrew roots people who seek to bring Christian back under the OT law like the Galatians did causing the Lord to tell them thru the Apostle Pail they have fallen from grace

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Those falling for the devil's fake gospel are no longer saved! View attachment 261671 [/QUOTE]
In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), which he commissioned his disciples to bring to all nations (Matthew 28:16-20), and which is in accordance with him being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).

In Acts 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in Acts 15:18-19, his Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so he also taught the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). Moreover, Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel. So the Gospel of the Kingdom is not the gospel of the devil and the problem that Paul had with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles to follow the Gospel that Christ taught, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to the Mosaic Law, and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:4 as Paul warning us against doing that and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ's Gospel. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, and this is what it means to be under grace, not the way to fall from him. It would again be absurd to think that he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace.

There is a difference between the position that we need to be obeyers of the Mosaic Law and the position that we are required to have first obeyed the Mosaic Law in order to earn our justification as the result, so it would be incorrect to interpret Galatians 5:4 as speaking against my position even if Paul had been speaking about the Mosaic Law.

 

[Soyeong]

After much study and thought trying to interpret Scripture correctly, I came to the conclusion that what disappeared with the new covenant were the outward forms of the old-covenant laws, that is, all the regulations concerning the Sabbath, food laws, animal sacrifices, and the commandments not to murder or have sex outside of marriage, for example.

What continues on are the inner principles or ideas of the old-covenant laws, that is, resting and worshiping on one day in seven, cleansing our inner lives from the uncleanness of sin, trusting in Jesus' one sacrifice to give us his power to overcome sin, and preserving and protecting life and marriage, respectively.

It is contradictory to think that we should obey the principles of God's laws, but not the laws that are examples of those principles. For instance, righteousness is a principle of God's law, but it would overwhelming to teach that principle by teaching how to be a doer of righteousness in every possible situation, so the way to teach that principle is by giving a smaller set of examples/laws of how to be a doer of righteousness in various situations that all have that principle in common. So if someone has a correct understanding of the principle of righteousness, then it will lead them to take actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with those examples that God has given in His law. If someone thinks that they have correctly understood as principle, so they no longer need to follow the examples that were given to teach that principle, then they are missing the whole point.

 

[Soyeong]

A very serious problem for you is that you see the law as 613 Mitzvot and not the commandments. Paul was not promoting many
things under the law of Moses. If you think he was, you have not read the NT, and if you have, you have not understood it at all.

The Mosaic Law has 613 of God's commandments, which Paul promoted obedience to as a servant of God. It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is and Paul spoke against sin.