-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
N
Revelation 9:4, "They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."
Ezekiel 9:4, "and the Lord said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it."
Is the "seal/mark" of God physical and visible in the natural? The mark of the beast is a counterpart to the seal/mark of God/The Holy Spirit. For we have been "sealed"
2 Timothy 2:18, "Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His,....."
Ephesians 1:13, "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
"Psalm 37:37, "Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright; For the future of that man is peace."
Why should we believe the mark of the beast is any more physical than the seal and mark of the Holy Spirit in/on believers? The mark of the beast is symbolic and it is spiritual. It is in the mind, which the unrenewed mind is the flesh and carnal nature and with it we give our worship and glory to God or with it in rejection of God, as even those who rejected their Messiah and by default worshipped the beast as those today who reject their salvation that do not have the mark or seal of God.
Ezekiel 9:4, "and the Lord said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it."
Is the "seal/mark" of God physical and visible in the natural? The mark of the beast is a counterpart to the seal/mark of God/The Holy Spirit. For we have been "sealed"
2 Timothy 2:18, "Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His,....."
Ephesians 1:13, "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
"Psalm 37:37, "Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright; For the future of that man is peace."
Why should we believe the mark of the beast is any more physical than the seal and mark of the Holy Spirit in/on believers? The mark of the beast is symbolic and it is spiritual. It is in the mind, which the unrenewed mind is the flesh and carnal nature and with it we give our worship and glory to God or with it in rejection of God, as even those who rejected their Messiah and by default worshipped the beast as those today who reject their salvation that do not have the mark or seal of God.
F
its funny when i was hearing about the mark of the beast i wasnt worried about THAT i was worried that i wouldnt be able to see any ones crosses on their foreheads. i was constantly looking for that instead.
The whole thing is just confusing to me, i guess i am waiting to really FEEL the negitivity from some one or something and take that as my indicator that they are anti christ or followers of the anti christ
The whole thing is just confusing to me, i guess i am waiting to really FEEL the negitivity from some one or something and take that as my indicator that they are anti christ or followers of the anti christ
I'm partial to the idea that the mark of the beast has already occurred so that we don't need to worry about it. What we do need to worry about is any sort of controlling political or governmental or monetary system that comes between you and God.
I don't think it's a microchip for a few reasons:
a) they are currently put behind your arm/shoulder in an area not well seen. It needs to be implanted in a fleshy part of the body because they are powered by body heat. Given that the hand and forehead is the most visible and less fleshy parts of the body, it's unlikely that the mark of the beast is an implanted chip .
b) The bible says the mark is visibly on the persons head or forehand , the word for mark means to etch I think, like a tattoo. Given that a microchip is designed to be invisible under the skin (perhaps with small raised bump or redness for a couple of days after), this seems unlikely.
I don't think it's a microchip for a few reasons:
a) they are currently put behind your arm/shoulder in an area not well seen. It needs to be implanted in a fleshy part of the body because they are powered by body heat. Given that the hand and forehead is the most visible and less fleshy parts of the body, it's unlikely that the mark of the beast is an implanted chip .
b) The bible says the mark is visibly on the persons head or forehand , the word for mark means to etch I think, like a tattoo. Given that a microchip is designed to be invisible under the skin (perhaps with small raised bump or redness for a couple of days after), this seems unlikely.
Last edited:
F
To began with, a Mark is a sign. It is a sign that identifies something. Gen. Ch.20: verse 8; "remember the Sabbath day by keeping it Holy" verse 9;" six days you shall labor and do all your work" verse 10; "but the Seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God,on it you shall not do any work" N.I.V.
Now to Exodus Ch.31: verses 12,13;
verse 12;"Then the Lord said to Moses," verse 13;" say to the Israelite s, you must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you Holy." N.I.V.
A sign is the same as a mark. It identifies someone or something. The sign mentioned here is all of God Sabbaths,including the WEEKLY SEVENTH DAY SABBATH. Those who observe this Sabbath are of God, He said that not I.
Now, if God has His Mark or Sign, then why not the Beast System having it's Mark. It does and it will and it is called Sunday. ouch!
We had a little taste of this when the "BLUE LAW" WAS IN EFFECT MANY YEARS BACK, AND STILL IS IN SOME PLACES. When the Law is passed that there will be no buying or selling on Sunday and if everyone does not abide buy it they will pay dearly. This will probably be just before the Great Tribulation.
Now to Exodus Ch.31: verses 12,13;
verse 12;"Then the Lord said to Moses," verse 13;" say to the Israelite s, you must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you Holy." N.I.V.
A sign is the same as a mark. It identifies someone or something. The sign mentioned here is all of God Sabbaths,including the WEEKLY SEVENTH DAY SABBATH. Those who observe this Sabbath are of God, He said that not I.
Now, if God has His Mark or Sign, then why not the Beast System having it's Mark. It does and it will and it is called Sunday. ouch!
We had a little taste of this when the "BLUE LAW" WAS IN EFFECT MANY YEARS BACK, AND STILL IS IN SOME PLACES. When the Law is passed that there will be no buying or selling on Sunday and if everyone does not abide buy it they will pay dearly. This will probably be just before the Great Tribulation.
S
You must think we are in the time of tribulation and have been for quite some time or you would not think the mark of the beast has already occurred. Has anyone received the mark that you know of or is it just in place for when the time is right? Is this one of the additional reasons why you do not believe in the rapture of the church taking place before the tribulation? Do you also believe that the Antichrist is active and is putting together a peace treaty for Israel. Has the temple been rebuilt in Jerusalem or is that in the works as well?
Do you believe as 'watchmen' that Micheal, the arch angel, is the restrainer that needs to be taken out of the way for the son of perdition to be revealed? If you don't, can you tell us what the early church believed about the restrainer, who or what it is and what kind of restraining was being performed that held back this son of perdition from being revealed? Can you also tell us what the early church believed about the tribulation that would be coming upon the earth, as never before or ever shall be / Mt 24:21, and how the church (this early church that certainly believed that Christ's return was imminent) would be involved and what their relationship would be with the Jews, especially the 144,000 that would be raised up and receive the seal of God? Did they actually have the Revelation in written form?
Was there any OT prophecy that specifically directed the church (the body and bride of Christ) that they could lean on for direction and instruction (not having the full canon) as there was given to them through the NT scriptures that had been passed around and read to them, some letters but not all? What was the dominant teaching of that time with the limited scriptures and copies of those scriptures they possessed? Did they have a good grasp of the book of Revelation written by the hand of John the apostle or did that come later? Where they able to compare the Revelation with the epistles Paul wrote to the churches in Corinth and Thessaloníki and the gospel that Matthew wrote. I have some other questions but I will save them for a later time. Take your time.
Do you believe as 'watchmen' that Micheal, the arch angel, is the restrainer that needs to be taken out of the way for the son of perdition to be revealed? If you don't, can you tell us what the early church believed about the restrainer, who or what it is and what kind of restraining was being performed that held back this son of perdition from being revealed? Can you also tell us what the early church believed about the tribulation that would be coming upon the earth, as never before or ever shall be / Mt 24:21, and how the church (this early church that certainly believed that Christ's return was imminent) would be involved and what their relationship would be with the Jews, especially the 144,000 that would be raised up and receive the seal of God? Did they actually have the Revelation in written form?
Was there any OT prophecy that specifically directed the church (the body and bride of Christ) that they could lean on for direction and instruction (not having the full canon) as there was given to them through the NT scriptures that had been passed around and read to them, some letters but not all? What was the dominant teaching of that time with the limited scriptures and copies of those scriptures they possessed? Did they have a good grasp of the book of Revelation written by the hand of John the apostle or did that come later? Where they able to compare the Revelation with the epistles Paul wrote to the churches in Corinth and Thessaloníki and the gospel that Matthew wrote. I have some other questions but I will save them for a later time. Take your time.
There have been successive tribulations in the past. There also have been occasions where no one could buy or sell, in the past. There is no rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem nor will there be in the future. People miss that this is referring to the rebuilding of the temple after the Israelites were in captivity i.e. it's a past event. The greatest tribulation has already occurred which was the destruction Jerusalem, there was then a very intense persecution of the christians for 300 years until constantine. Not that there won't be intense persecution of the church in the future, as I said, there are successive tribulation periods. The holocaust in WW2, the Christians in China, the Christians in Africa and India today. When will it be our turn?
Last edited:
The abomination of desolation was when the Roman armies encompassed Jerusalem. It was in Christ's future, but our past of course. Compare Luke with Matthew , as you can see below, verse 20 in luke matches verse 15 in Matthew, so simply, the abomination of desolation is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. They were an abomination because so the Jews thought of all the heathen, particularly the Romans being uncircumcised, with their idols and false gods, images of the emperor and the related various symbols they displayed marching into battle. All of Jerusalem was regarded as the holy place, but also when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols to the temple and sacrificed to them.
Luk 21:20 And when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that its destruction has come.
Luk 21:21 And let those in Judea flee to the mountains. And those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.
Mat 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
Mat 24:16 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
Luk 21:20 And when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that its destruction has come.
Luk 21:21 And let those in Judea flee to the mountains. And those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.
Mat 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
Mat 24:16 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
Last edited:
S
I am going to assume that you are taking your time and checking with as many commentaries and internet sites as needed and you will have some answers forthcoming. However, if that was your only answer to post #87, you have left off without giving us your expertise concerning the early church beliefs, doctrines and writings they followed. You have rebuffed many of us for not learning about the early church, its history and what they followed concerning the truth. Now you have the opportunity to add some early church virtue to our knowledge to inform us, who are weak in the faith, what we should have known and been walking in all this time. Please don't disappoint us, for we are hungry to know.
G
I am inclined to disagree snail
a) with technology advancing at such a rapid pace, take computers for example, you can purchase the most top of the line and and in six months if not less it will be out of date. look at this new industrial diamond they are making, it is far smaller than the silicon chip, holds much more data and operates at a much cooler temperature making it operate faster. when the time comes the chip will probably be so small it won't even be noticeable under the thinnest layer of skin.
b) does it really say visible? (not being funny as I don't think it does) A tattoo or etching surely will not work, the skin sheds and over time will distort, look at ink tattoos how they have to be touched up after a few years besides, the way the monetary system is going it is clearly heading toward a cashless society so what better way to introduce a chip with all your information on and without it you won't be able to work, buy or sell as all shops/workplaces etc will have scanners...makes sense really, no more cash to worry about for someone to steel or losing it.
a) with technology advancing at such a rapid pace, take computers for example, you can purchase the most top of the line and and in six months if not less it will be out of date. look at this new industrial diamond they are making, it is far smaller than the silicon chip, holds much more data and operates at a much cooler temperature making it operate faster. when the time comes the chip will probably be so small it won't even be noticeable under the thinnest layer of skin.
b) does it really say visible? (not being funny as I don't think it does) A tattoo or etching surely will not work, the skin sheds and over time will distort, look at ink tattoos how they have to be touched up after a few years besides, the way the monetary system is going it is clearly heading toward a cashless society so what better way to introduce a chip with all your information on and without it you won't be able to work, buy or sell as all shops/workplaces etc will have scanners...makes sense really, no more cash to worry about for someone to steel or losing it.
F
No, I am Christian by God's Choice. The Seventh Day is the Sabbath that Jesus Christ Himself ( the God of the Old Testament) put in as His Identifying sign, not man. Constantine installed the Sunday Sabbath in 321 A.D. Check your Encyclopedia on Sunday worship. I,m sorry but there was a Blue Law in effect, some stores were not open by choice and certain items could not be sold at that time.(Sunday)
Well I just read about half way through this thread, then had to stop, cause I see that all MahogonySnail is doing is instigating angry arguing. At that isn't something of the lord. I know that for a FACT. The way I see it is. The mark of the beast will be KNOWN when it comes around, and our duty as Christians is NOT to receive it. And if we do, we are not true believers, and will live the rest of our eternity burning in the lake of fire. I rest my case. May god bless you all.
N
I'm in agreement with Mohogany Snail. Most today find it easier to take the word of pastrors/teachers and popular end time books. Not many are willing to search out the Word to find if such things are so.
A temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem today is not the issue. The fact that it will and cannot be made holy and thus called The Holy Place is the issue. For God will not make a place made by hands holy again. So therefore what was spoken of in Matthew 24, referring to Daniel's writings, as an abomination of desolation standing in the holy place could not take place in our day as no building is holy to God and the only way something can be made holy is by God alone. Man never made anything holy.
I find it also interesting that many want to quote Matthew 24 all along disregarding Matthew 23. Matthew 23 holds a key to understanding Matthew 24 regarding this desolation, as Jesus tells in Matthew 23 what is to become desolate and why.
One cannot receive a quick, fast food type of answer concerning things Mohogany Snail has mentioned, because unlike the contemporary ideas of so called end times, these things need take much searching the Scriptures and cannot come together in a short paragraph. It will be had for those who truly desire to search it out.
Are we in an end times? I believe yes, it appears so. Jurst that most of what you will find in teh Word of God concerning the last days and end times is refering not to the end of time, but the time of the end and last days of the Old Covenant system and in a bringing into full, The New Covenant.
Search to see if such things are so as the nobel Bereans did also.
Beloved,
In Christ,
David John (NewJerusalem)
A temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem today is not the issue. The fact that it will and cannot be made holy and thus called The Holy Place is the issue. For God will not make a place made by hands holy again. So therefore what was spoken of in Matthew 24, referring to Daniel's writings, as an abomination of desolation standing in the holy place could not take place in our day as no building is holy to God and the only way something can be made holy is by God alone. Man never made anything holy.
I find it also interesting that many want to quote Matthew 24 all along disregarding Matthew 23. Matthew 23 holds a key to understanding Matthew 24 regarding this desolation, as Jesus tells in Matthew 23 what is to become desolate and why.
One cannot receive a quick, fast food type of answer concerning things Mohogany Snail has mentioned, because unlike the contemporary ideas of so called end times, these things need take much searching the Scriptures and cannot come together in a short paragraph. It will be had for those who truly desire to search it out.
Are we in an end times? I believe yes, it appears so. Jurst that most of what you will find in teh Word of God concerning the last days and end times is refering not to the end of time, but the time of the end and last days of the Old Covenant system and in a bringing into full, The New Covenant.
Search to see if such things are so as the nobel Bereans did also.
Beloved,
In Christ,
David John (NewJerusalem)