the tribulation

Graybeard · Dec 19, 2009

well if that is the case then how come they are back in the promised land, miraculous I might add. they should then never have been gathered back!
A point of interest here, don't you think it extraordinary that a nation who has been scattered all over the world 2000 years ago has managed to keep their traditions and ORIGINAL Hebrew language after so long a period? only with God was that possible.

MahogonySnail · Dec 19, 2009

That is not to say that there will not be a future restoration of Israel. But this "restoration" must be seen in the light of salvation in Christ. i.e. Paul never taught about a restoration of earthly Israel or a return to the old covenant system of Law and priesthood and sacrifices. Instead Paul clearly taught that all Israel would be saved:

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

A restoration of Israel is nothing less than Israel's salvation. Did this happen in 1948 ? No way. This is yet to happen in the future.

In any case thinking practically, a re-built temple at Jerusalem will do no good for the majority of Jews in the world, who do not live in Israel but outside of it.

As an interesting side-note, the 12 disciples of Christ misunderstood Jesus's purpose and intent as well. Not understanding His purpose and nature of His kingdom, they said:

Act 1:6 Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

Thinking that Jesus was a temporal deliverer of Israel out of the hands of the Romans, and that the Jews would rule over the whole earth. But this sort of old worldly ideas is the same sort of worldly thinking that leads to the restoration of Israel beliefs you are talking about. It was only until the Holy Spirit was given that they really understood the true nature of God's kingdom and Christ's mission. So my question is are you really listening to the Spirit or to old wordly ideas , thinking of Christ and the Jews and Israel only in terms of their physical presence in the world, the physical temple at Jerusalem, physical warfare and physical/worldly kingdoms like the USA, Iran, Palestine, Israel, etc. ?

MahogonySnail · Dec 19, 2009

Now here come the worldly arguments/justifications that aren't based on scripture

. Well no, there's nothing extraordinary about a new nation arising due to military/political actions.
They are not the only nation I am sure to have kept their traditions for so long, and so it's not exactly any great miracle. They may have kept man-made traditions, many that Christ spoke against, but that's not so hard. Do you know the more devout Jews - they have laws against turning electricity on or starting cars because that's starting fires? (prohibited on the sabbath). There's nothing noble or praiseworthy about that from Christ's point of view.

Given that it is the anti-Christ's aim to deceive the elect (if possible), be very careful about using your natural mind to interpret world events in light of God's plan. I'm sure many christians will think whoever sits in the temple at Jerusalem is Christ, (when in fact it is the anti-Christ) and so will be deceived. Probably the same Christians who think Israel was restored in 1948 and the temple will be rebuilt (for God). Anyone who knows the new testament and new covenant well understands that salvation of theJews through Christ is God's plan, not restoration of an earthly kingdom. Israel will be restored in the sense of returning to God through Christ and the new covenant, not establishment of an earthly nation called "Israel" due to military action and support from worldly anti-Christ super-powers and anti-Christ governments/organisations like the united nations etc.

MahogonySnail · Dec 19, 2009

PS. look up the Noahide laws + UN.
This website for example:
http://watch.pair.com/law.html#noahide

You have a set of false laws set up for a false messiah and no doubt will sit in a false temple at false Jerusalem in false Israel. Note: The penalty for disobedience to the laws is execution (Jewish equivalent of the Taliban?).

Graybeard · Dec 19, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

That's interesting because here it says:

Ezr 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Ezr 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Ezr 1:3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

Soloman build the Temple to the Lord
2Ch 2:1 Then Solomon determined to build a temple for the name of the LORD, and a royal house for himself.
2Ch 2:4 Behold, I am building a temple for the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, for the continual showbread, for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel.
2Ch 2:5 And the temple which I build will be great, for our God is greater than all gods.
2Ch 2:6 But who is able to build Him a temple, since heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him? Who am I then, that I should build Him a temple, except to burn sacrifice before Him?

so we see that Soloman build the Temple and God did not say anything for Him to stop, in fact God had given Soloman Wisdom because he had asked for it so therefore he did not biuld the Temple out of foolishness, besides when the Temple was completed look what happens:

2Ch 5:13 indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying: "For He is good, For His mercy endures forever," that the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud,
2Ch 5:14 so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God.

look here, you should read verses before and after as well

2Ch 6:8 But the LORD said to my father David, 'Whereas it was in your heart to build a temple for My name, you did well in that it was in your heart.
2Ch 6:9 Nevertheless you shall not build the temple, but your son who will come from your body, he shall build the temple for My name.'
2Ch 6:10 So the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke, and I have filled the position of my father David, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised; and I have built the temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel.

MahogonySnail · Dec 19, 2009

PS. The majority of people believing in this restoration of Israel stuff ( I mean the ones teaching and preaching it) are not exactly people who hold sound doctrine or orthodox christian views. Benny Hiinn, TBN, Paul Crouch, etc etc.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/hinntemple.html

The November 18, 2003 telecast of Benny Hinn's This Is Your Day TV program included a Rabbi Chaim Richman, Founder of "Light to the Nations" (an organization which seeks to build a bridge between Jews and Christians).
Rabbi Richman is also associated with the Temple Institute of Jerusalem, which is "dedicated to every aspect of the Biblical commandment to build the Holy Temple of G-d on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem" (full text at
www.templeinstitute.org/about.html ).
While the Temple Institute's short-term goal is to "rekindle the flame of the Holy Temple in the hearts of mankind," its long-term goal is to "do as much as possible to bring about the building of the Holy Temple in our time" (ibid.).
The Temple Institute also provides research, publications, educational materials and conferences to promote its efforts.
Rabbi Richman is not a Messianic Jew, yet Hinn recognized him as a "brother" and allowed the Rabbi to share updates on the Temple. Hinn also allowed the promotion of the 2004 Jerusalem Temple Calendar to aid in the funding of the Temple.
Of course, Hinn has made the Calendar available to Christians--through his ministry--for $35.00.
A quick Google Search on "Rabbi Chaim Richman" netted the following: "The reason why Jews like myself do not accept Jesus as the messiah is a very basic one - we do not see that he fulfilled any of the requirements for the job. If he never qualified, it is not even a question of rejection. G-d outlined these requirements in the Bible. The identity of the messiah is not up to you or me; it is up to his performance to prove" (Rabbi Chaim Richman, "A Jewish View of the Messiah." Full text at http://members.aol.com/baryeh/richman.html ).

Click to expand...

People like Benny Hinn are basically Judaizers, they preach Christ but also promote the keeping of old covenant laws, for gentiles. In fact this is fairly pronounced within the modern day pentecostal movements. Shofars, rainbow flags, holy water from the river jordan, people calling themselves elijah's and elisha's and this sort of thing and calling themselves prophets,, various anointings of this and that... AND rebuilding of the temple. These are Christians wanting to not only put themselves under the bondage of the old covenant, but assist anti-Christ Jews such as the Rabbi above, bring about a reconstruction of the old temple and bring back the old covenant and bring in the false messiah. !!!

MahogonySnail · Dec 19, 2009

That's quoting from Ezra, not Ezekial, well AFTER construction of the temple by Solomon. As I already showed, it was not God's idea to live in a temple, but David's. Before that, God was happy dwelling in tents/tabernacles.

The difference is, that the temple is basically symbolic of man's attempt to get to God (symbolic of man's efforts/works for salvation - David presumed God required a temple made of human hands, when in fact no human being can provide an earthly dwelling place for God , God provides for us, we don't provide for God).

And yes God reluctantly accepted the offer to have a temple built for Him. Just as God reluctanctly gave Israel a king after their much request for one.
But the temple (man's way) being built, and destroyed, built and destroyed again, is God's way to show that human effort is useless...and that both Israel's requests for a king, and for a temple, were over-ridden in Christ (God's way). God Himself has been building a spiritual body for Himself to dwell in since Christ, and why any Christian would ever think God wants to live in a house made with human hands and made from cedar - I don't know.

Graybeard · Dec 19, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

that's just it!..there is a restoration of Israel and it is happening now, it was only 1948 that the where declared a Nation and hence the restoration begins, it is a process, by no means is the entire prophesy fulfilled yet, it is a work in progress.
I am not saying and don't believe that sacrifices will be brought back or that the old covenant will be back, yes Israel will be saved and that will happen when the Lord Himself descends with a shout to deliver Israel from her enemies, THEN will they know that He is indeed Lord.

......beliefs you are talking about.

Click to expand...

It was only until the Holy Spirit was given that they really understood the true nature of God's kingdom and Christ's mission. So my question is are you really listening to the Spirit or to old wordly ideas , thinking of Christ and the Jews and Israel only in terms of their physical presence in the world, the physical temple at Jerusalem, physical warfare and physical/worldly kingdoms like the USA, Iran, Palestine, Israel, etc. ?

Click to expand...

By no means as we all know it is not flesh and blood that we fight against but principalities and powers, however physical wars still have a role to play as they have been prophesied and Gods word will not return void..they will still happen...I mean when Christ defeats the Anti-Christ that will be a physical war!

Graybeard · Dec 19, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Israel is not a new nation, that's just it!...they have been scattered for so long and God is fulfilling His promises.
They are the only nation who have managed to keep their original unchanged language of Hebrew.
Yes many will be deceived by the anti-Christ and Christians as well when he sits in Jerusalem and declares himself God, we all know how Satan works don't we?..he is the great deceiver and a master counterfeiter, he is counterfeiting Jesus's rule from Jerusalem!

Graybeard · Dec 19, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

That's quoting from Ezra, not Ezekial, well AFTER construction of the temple by Solomon. As I already showed, it was not God's idea to live in a temple, but David's. Before that, God was happy dwelling in tents/tabernacles.

The difference is, that the temple is basically symbolic of man's attempt to get to God (symbolic of man's efforts/works for salvation - David presumed God required a temple made of human hands, when in fact no human being can provide an earthly dwelling place for God , God provides for us, we don't provide for God).

And yes God reluctantly accepted the offer to have a temple built for Him. Just as God reluctanctly gave Israel a king after their much request for one.
But the temple (man's way) being built, and destroyed, built and destroyed again, is God's way to show that human effort is useless...and that both Israel's requests for a king, and for a temple, were over-ridden in Christ (God's way). God Himself has been building a spiritual body for Himself to dwell in since Christ, and why any Christian would ever think God wants to live in a house made with human hands and made from cedar - I don't know.

we are going full circle here, at present we are the Temple that Christ dwells in, but when He returns for us we will be with Him and He with us, together we reign from Jerusalem. Back to my previous question..when Christ rules on Earth, where will He rule from and will He not be residing on Earth as well?

MahogonySnail · Dec 19, 2009

I agree. So why does God or we need a temple if those things aren't brought back?

Glad you raised this point. Actually I disagree...sorry. This contradicts the whole "our weapons are not carnal" thing...
2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds,
and Christ or even named Christians, gunning down the anti-Christ and his armies with carnal weapons and such bloodshed and violence? I don't think so. The Prince of Peace wielding a literal sword of violence? Not going to happen. In Revelation it says a sword comes out of His mouth. In other words, Christ will defeat His enemies by spiritual means. Yes there will be physical wars.. but Christ is not going to be defeating the anti-Christ by showing up in an Abram's tank...just as Christ did not come with a sword and an army to overthrow oppressive Rome, as many expected or thought Him to (and Jews today no doubt, still believe this way?).

So how does Christ and God's people defeat the anti-Christ? By keeping the faith, by enduring under trial, by remaining faithful to the end. War between the anti-Christ and Christ/saints is nothing less than religious persecution, under which the believer remains faithful and the persecutor will end up in the Lake of fire. That's a victory for Christ and a defeat for the anti-Christ, that's how the war is won.

MahogonySnail · Dec 19, 2009

I agree. We will always be the temple that Christ dwells in and Christ will dwell in the Jews as well as soon as they come to Him.

When Christ rules on Earth? Good question. Honestly I don't know. But why would He want to or need to rule from a Temple? If Christ is dwelling amongst His people He is free to go wherever He likes. Do you know that the Temple also signifies separation between a perfect and Holy God and an imperfect people? That separation is no longer there and so there won't be any Christians going into the 'holy of holys' to see Christ in a physical temple in Jerusalem. So it won't be a temple, it may be a house, it may be a sleeping bag on the grass, who knows..and if so, why does it need to be at Jerusalem? Maybe Christ will live sometimes in the USA, sometimes in China, sometimes in Israel. Christ may one day show up at your house, and say gday graybeard, hows it going? can I stay with you for a couple of days?. Freely intermingling with His people, going where He pleases, doing what He likes, that's the picture I see of the reign of Christ on earth. Not confined to a particular building in Jerusalem that was a) an idea of David's, fulfilled in Solomon, and b), a temporary arrangement until Christ. and c) Christ never lived in a temple while he was on earth the first time, the chances he will want to the second time, I think are slim. Yet all these people still want to build Christ a fancy temple, but I'm sure Christ would say, no, I don't need that, I'm going to stay at YOUR house today.

Graybeard · Dec 19, 2009

may very well be I agree somewhat but, God is not disorganised, He has order, so He will definitly set up His Kingdom here on Earth,do you not agree that God has a Temple in Heaven?

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

that's just one verse and I'm sure there are more, do you not believe that things in Heaven are imaged here on Earth, that is why Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it, you know that. so if the old law is of no use or has been done away with Jesus would have said so, in fact He said that not one little piece would be done away:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

He then said:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

does this mean we are to follow the old traditions?....NO WAY....I do not fully understand the entire meaning of the law being fulfilled but not done away thing...but I do understand that to obey the two commandments that Jesus gave is to obey all the law as all the law is summed up into those two laws, that is why people who live a Godly life have no problem even with the law of the land as their natural lifestyle will be such that it will be within the law...if you know what I mean.

I'm going to have to sit you next to Cup the way this is going

NewJerusalem · Dec 19, 2009

Been enjoying the threads. Good stuff..

Problem is so many in the "church" today focus on earthly things even as in ancient times looking for an earthly kingdom. Why are so many "caught up" in the physical?

2 COR 4:18.." while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. "

John 18:36.. " Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

Hebrews 12:22.. " But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, "

The city of our inheritance is not a physical city, not physical Jerusalem and never will be again. But the city of inheritance is an heavenly one. The New Jerusalem. The Old Covenant and its places were all types and shadows, being physical, natural and earthly in nature OF the New Covenant which is spiritual, supernatural and heavenly. No longer do we look for earthly fulfillment and things which are physical/temporary, but that which is in heaven, eternal.

The whole teaching that has been discussed regarding things in the natural is severely flawed.

I encourage all to search to see if such things are so. The tighter one holds to the flawed teaching, the more they will miss the Truth of the matter and less they desire to hear from God. Reject the teaching of men and seek Understanding from God.

greatkraw · Dec 19, 2009

This is quite clearly a progressive process..

Ezekiel 37

1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, Israel dispersed among the nations and estranged from God

2and caused me to pass by them round about; and behold, there were very many in the open valley, and lo, they were very dry.

3And He said unto me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, Thou knowest."

4Again He said unto me, "Prophesy upon these bones and say unto them, `O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live.

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.'"

7So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied,there was a noise, and behold, a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above; but there was no breath in them.
9Then said He unto me, "Prophesy unto the wind. Prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, `Thus saith the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.'"

10So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11Then He said unto me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, `Our bones are dried and our hope is lost. We are cut off from our parts.'

12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, `Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13And ye shall know that I am the LORD when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14and shall put My Spirit in you and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land. This happens first.

Then shall ye know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it, saith the LORD.'"

15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16"Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick and write upon it, `For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.' Then take another stick and write upon it, `For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.'

17And join them one to another into one stick, and they shall become one in thine hand.

18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, `Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these?'

19say unto them, `Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.'

20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21"And say unto them, `Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen whither they have gone, and will gather them on every side and bring them into their own land. More gathering to be done

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be King to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places wherein they have sinned and will cleanse them. So shall they be My people, and I will be their God. Millenial Reign of Christ

24"`And David My servant shall be King over them, and they all shall have one Shepherd. They shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they and their children and their children's children for ever. And My servant David shall be their Prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them. Yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
See Revelation - this is now the eternal state
28And the heathen shall know that I, the LORD, do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.'"

MahogonySnail · Dec 19, 2009

It's true that there is more gathering to be done but since Christ, we know this is in the sense of their coming to Christ and salvation in Christ. Not a gathering back under the old-covenant system and those things which have become obsolete. All the other gatherings refer to the periods after the baylonian captivity, in fact after the assyrian captivity, the punishment God pronounced was utter destruction, which is why most did not return from assyrian captivity but were killed.

The condition for restoration of Israel under the old covenant, i.e. restoration back to their lands, was their repentance and coming back to Mosaic Law. That has never happened yet , unless you can point to a time in 1948 or since where they returned back to God in repentance?

charisenexcelcis · Dec 19, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

lol. I've heard Benny Hinn called a lot of things but a Judaizer. That's new. I disagree with you considering pentecostals. I would suggest that you look at the web sites for the General Council of the Assemblies of God, the Church of God in Christ, the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, the Church of god (Cleveland, TN), and the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World. Check out their statements of faith, etc.

NewJerusalem · Dec 20, 2009

Thought people here may be mature enough to discuss, share and study the Word. Seems like everyone has their minds made up and nothing can change that. I know the more I learn it seems the less I know. I desire to share and reason together. Some here are pretty stuck on their great knowledge it seems.

Mohogany Snail. been really appreciating your comments, because they are the type that makes one want to search further to see if such things are so. Unlike other posts I read of those who have all the answers and knowledge that have need to set you right, set me right and all who would bring differing views than what they are used to.

I did not come here to argue or to be ridiculed. But to reason together and have intelligent conversations about Scripture.

In Christ,

David John.. Still searching to see if such things are so.

greatkraw · Dec 20, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

that is still future

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I willl tell you for free this will happen in the second half of the tribulation while the Church is in heaven and the Jews (that are left)have escaped to Petra

Graybeard · Dec 20, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

don't you see....Israel has to exist for this to take place.....now they exist, from aprox 2500 years ago till 1948 they have been scattered all over the world.
So now that they are a nation again what is the next step?...they will build the Temple for the third time so that they can continue the sacrifice/Mosaic Law. The new Temple will most likely be built next to the Dome Mosk. In fact preparations have already started.

the tribulation

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