The tribulation

[Webers.Home]

.
● Rev 13:11 . . .Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had
two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.

This particular beast will be, from all appearances, a seemingly harmless
individual, viz: he won't have the look of a menace.

For example; German SS officer Heinrich Luitpold Himmler had the look of a
classic Mr. Milquetoast; but underneath that facade was an unbelievable
capacity for cruelty, subterfuge, and murder on a grand scale. In other
words: you couldn't tell at first glance that Himmler was a beast in whose
opinion human life is an inconvenience.
_

 

[SomeDisciple]

So, for those who say that the abomination of desolation was a 70 AD thing:

By the time the Romans had made their way to the temple, and made sacrifices to the standards... isn't that a terrible time to be fleeing into the mountains? By that time the Romans have hacked their way through nearly half the city.

Besides that: how many people actually saw this occur? And out of the people that saw it occur, how many could have survived in order to warn others that it happened, and that it was time to flee?

Also, for those who say that it's the appearance of the Roman Army in 67, that doesn't fit the bill; because 3 years is plenty of time to go down and grab your cloak, and maybe even pack some snacks and saddle up your donkey and mosey on out to the mountains at a leisurely pace. Your "flight" (if you even call it that) could go through many sabbaths, and being pregnant probably wouldn't be too much of a problem... you could get pregnant twice and still make it.

Also... "let the reader understand": This is not a translators note- this is the scripture; so, I don't know what kind of mental gymnastic sorcery you have to be under to say "we don't have to understand this"; which is the opposite of what the scripture says. Aside from "Something, something, something ALLEGORY!!!" I don't know how one can get around this.

 

[SomeDisciple]

This particular beast will be, from all appearances, a seemingly harmless
individual, viz: he won't have the look of a menace.

This is great news for everyone that has a tendency to be perceived as a homicidal maniac... at least you aren't the Anti-christ! Sweet!

For example; German SS officer Heinrich Luitpold Himmler had the look of a
classic Mr. Milquetoast; but underneath that facade was an unbelievable
capacity for cruelty, subterfuge, and murder on a grand scale. In other
words: you couldn't tell at first glance that Himmler was a beast in whose
opinion human life is an inconvenience.

Imagine this guy in a polo shirt and khaki shorts. The uniform is the only thing saving him from looking like a total dork... and the only thing saving me from being him, is Jesus Christ.

 

[GaryA]

So, for those who say that the abomination of desolation was a 70 AD thing:

By the time the Romans had made their way to the temple, and made sacrifices to the standards... isn't that a terrible time to be fleeing into the mountains? By that time the Romans have hacked their way through nearly half the city.

Besides that: how many people actually saw this occur? And out of the people that saw it occur, how many could have survived in order to warn others that it happened, and that it was time to flee?

Also, for those who say that it's the appearance of the Roman Army in 67, that doesn't fit the bill; because 3 years is plenty of time to go down and grab your cloak, and maybe even pack some snacks and saddle up your donkey and mosey on out to the mountains at a leisurely pace. Your "flight" (if you even call it that) could go through many sabbaths, and being pregnant probably wouldn't be too much of a problem... you could get pregnant twice and still make it.

Also... "let the reader understand": This is not a translators note- this is the scripture; so, I don't know what kind of mental gymnastic sorcery you have to be under to say "we don't have to understand this"; which is the opposite of what the scripture says. Aside from "Something, something, something ALLEGORY!!!" I don't know how one can get around this.

For clarity:

From this past post in another thread (with regard to Matthew 24):

Verses 16-20 comprise the instructions that the Jew-Christians were to follow according to the recognition of what is being illustrated in verse 15.

'When ye therefore shall see...'

[then]

'follow these instructions'

(And don't waste any time doing it.)

There was a three-year seige before the Romans took the city and destroyed the temple.

The Jew-Christians followed the instructions before/as the seige began.

What did they 'see' - before/as the seige began - three years before the temple was ever touched or destroyed - that they instantly recognized as being what was illustrated in verse 15?

hint:

( whoso readeth, let him understand: )




To repeat:

The Jew-Christians followed the instructions before/as the seige began. ( not three years later )

Three years before any 'physical' AOD could possibly have taken place - the Christians headed for the mountains.

They saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

They understood perfectly.


If you understand what the parenthetical phrase means - then, you know the real actual bona fide AOD occurred in 167 B.C. and not in circa 70 A.D. - and, that there is no second-parallel version of it that occurred later in history.

 

[GaryA]

If you understand what the parenthetical phrase means

The above statement is referring to '( whoso readeth, let him understand: )' and not '( not three years later )'.

 

[SomeDisciple]

There was a three-year seige before the Romans took the city and destroyed the temple.

No their wasn't. The seige was more like 5 months... and the army that showed up in 67 and withdrew from Jerusalem was defeated by the Jews.

... and like I said, that still wouldn't make sense with respect to the "woes" about fleeing during a sabbath. They had plenty of time to escape Jerusalem from 67-70.

 

[GaryA]

When the armies first showed up - the Jew-Christians headed for the mountains.

 

[SomeDisciple]

When the armies first showed up - the Jew-Christians headed for the mountains.

So, are you saying that the armies with their standards in Judea are the abomination of desolation, then? Because, Like I said, the "woes" don't make sense if this is what Jesus was talking about. He must have been talking about something else.

 

[GaryA]

I am saying that there was no AOD at all whatsoever circa 70 A.D.

 

[GaryA]

The mention of the AoD in Matthew 24:15 / Mark 13:14 is an indirect reference to 167 A.D. - it is not actually referring to a future AoD 'event'.

 

[GaryA]

The explanation for this is in the parenthetical phrase. The Jew-Christians understood perfectly.

 

[GaryA]

( whoso readeth, let him understand: ) <<<<< Click

 

[GaryA]

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-started-in-70-a-d.187128/page-3#post-4018271
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...he-modern-church.201091/page-181#post-4711062
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...he-modern-church.201091/page-181#post-4711075
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/post-trib-rapture.209486/page-12#post-5012911

 

[Flannery]

I wonder if that's the abstract week, I've heard it commentated on many times before, and only listened to two interpretations, in spite of the fact that it's the most popular subject for prophecy or evangelism. Some people try to locate the week on a timeline, but the other interpretation is that is represents a sequence of seven equal intervals of time, which is illustrated by the fact that a sabbatical in farming or teaching is a seventh year out of seven years. The one interpretation is a question of when the seven days will be, the other is how long a span of time the seven days represents, and the purely symbolic interpretation is that it is meant to represent seven of any increment of time.

The only other prophecy question even comparable to this one is the question of the identity of the antichrist, and the bifurcation is between seeking a specific person by name and attempting to determine a personal character which is definitively of the antichrist.

 

[Webers.Home]

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● Rev 13:11-17 . . .Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth . . .
and he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come
down from heaven to earth in full view of men . . . he deceived the
inhabitants of the earth and ordered them to set up an image in honor of the
beast . . . He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast,
so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be
executed.

The dimensions of the image aren't given but I should think it will be large
enough to be imposing.

For example: side by side statues of former North Korean leaders Kim Il
sung and Kim Jong-IL, located on Mansu Hill in Pyongyang, are 22 meters
(72+ feet) tall. If one of those statues ever came to life, it would make quite
an impression because something that big would be very difficult to fake for
even a top-notch magician like David Copperfield.

* The Greek word translated "beast" refers to dangerous animals as opposed
to peaceful ones like goats, sheep, prairie dogs, and squeaky little gerbils.
_

 

[Jimbone]

.



Humanity's first generation began with Adam and continued up until the
Flood.

Humanity's second generation began after the Flood and will continue up
until Jesus' return to set up his millennial kingdom.

Humanity's third generation begins with Jesus' return and will continue up
until the fiery obliteration of the entire universe.

Yet a fourth generation begins with construction of a brand new cosmos.

● Matt 19:27-29 . . Jesus said to them: Truly I say to you, that you who
have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on his
glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve
tribes of Israel.
_

All I see is you use eisegesis a lot to make Jesus very clear words say what you want them to say, but see I believe in exegesis and pulling the meaning from the text, not adding to it so it says what I want it to say. I completely reject your interpretation here, I understand it and have been taught it before, I just do not think this is what the text is saying at all, and that one has to literally twist Jesus words to get it to have any hope of holding the meaning you want it to. Besides this verse there are many others that back my view up. We can go through them or we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. I find it troubling that just like the rest of the pre-trib nonsense one has to bring charts, outside ideas, and a guru to get the text to mean what you want it to, and I reject all of that 100%.

In those verses Jesus gave His teachings then His followers asked Him "when will these things happen", and He looked at them in the eyes and said "this generation will not pass away before ALL these things take place". Do you think they thought He was saying in thousands of years it would happen? No way on earth to make that future to us without twisting it. No way. If you're right Jesus is a false prophet, never mind that even historically it happen exactly how He said it would right?

I see you jumped on this verse and question before answering anything about the 3rd temple dilemma. I assume like usual it's because you can't answer it. There's a reason why, can you guess what that reason is?

 

[cv5]

I actually believe the 7 years of Tribulation are not consecutive, they are split 3 1/2 and 3 1/2.

Jesus Christ the True Christ came first and is the time of peace in the first 3 1/2 years.

The Anti-Christ will get the last 3 1/2 years….and will follow almost the same script as Jesus Christ.

Jesus’ mother and John the Baptist mother were cousins; likewise, the anti-Christ and false prophet’s mothers will be cousins…

The star of Bethlehem- astronomical sign announcing Jesus Christ’s birth; likewise, Mayan calendar ending late December 2012…the end of the world - the birth of the anti-Christ.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem; the anti-Christ is born in Assyria… both places suffered massive slaughter 1 to 2 years after birth.

Syria was slaughtering children in 2014; tons of Syrian refugees fleeing…

December 2024 Satan will enter the anti-Christ because he will be 12 years old with a desire to be about his father’s business…

He’ll enter the public arena when he is 30 years old… December 2042. The false prophet, like John the Baptist will announce his arrival.

He’ll have 3 1/2 years…. then, it’s over. Amen.

The thing is.....
-first seal the AC is revealed
-second seal peace is TAKEN AWAY from the earth

IMO, this may be why Israel is pressured to solicit the AC for the enforcement of the covenant of Dan 9:27 made at the very beginning of the 70th week. In other words, a covenant was made but broken almost immediately. And there seems to be little in the way of peace during the first 3-1/2 years of the 70th week.

Labor pains = seals. There seems to be the HOPE of "peace and security” BEFORE the AC is revealed.
This too is as vain a hope as it is today.

1Th 5:3
While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Rev 6:1
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The Second Seal--War
Rev 6:3
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 

[Webers.Home]

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● Rev 13:5a . . And there was given unto the Beast a mouth speaking great
things

That's pretty much describes the rhetoric of most every politician, viz:
promises of a better world under the auspices of their own administrative
practices.

● Rev 13:5b . . and blasphemies

In this scenario, the Beast is God's political opponent. Well political
opponents in today's world make it their mission in life to destroy the other
guy's reputation and call into question his motives. I suspect the Beast's
tactics will be no different because it's to his advantage to emphasize the old
God's perceived faults and failures and show how himself as the new God
can do a much better job managing the world's affairs.

"He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is
worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to
be God." (2Thess 2:3-4)

NOTE: I would imagine that a first order of business for the Beast will be to
come up with a plausible explanation for the world-wide extraction described
by 1Thess 4:13-18 wherein nigh unto 2,000 years of deceased Christians will
appear out of thin air all over the globe and join those alive to go up and
rendezvous with Christ in the clouds.
_

 

[cv5]

.
NOTE: I would imagine that a first order of business for the Beast will be to
come up with a plausible explanation for the world-wide extraction described
by 1Thess 4:13-18 wherein nigh unto 2,000 years of deceased Christians will
appear out of thin air all over the globe and join those alive to go up and
rendezvous with Christ in the clouds.
_

Totally agree. The pre-trib rapture will be THE sign whereby the elect Israelites and gentiles come to faith.
That among many other signs (angels flying and prophesying, overt demonic activity etc) happening during the 70th week of Daniel.

2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[cv5]

Totally agree. The pre-trib rapture will be THE sign whereby the elect Israelites and gentiles come to faith.
That among many other signs (angels flying and prophesying, overt demonic activity etc) happening during the 70th week of Daniel.

2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The Two Witnesses, 144,000 and the Scripture itself will be the primary witness during that time. The rapture will be the sign that indicates that the 70th week has commenced.