The Trinity

[Meshullam]

Like I said, no use flogging a dead horse. I got my view, you got yours, and some of you guys want to resort to all this insinuation to prove a point. I've got no time for it.

Personally, I think the 'trinity' 3 persons in 1 God thing isn't valid for plenty of reasons, but there's no point in me putting any more of them across, at least not here, and not to you guys.

 

[Bowman]

Like I said, no use flogging a dead horse. I got my view, you got yours, and some of you guys want to resort to all this insinuation to prove a point. I've got no time for it.

Personally, I think the 'trinity' 3 persons in 1 God thing isn't valid for plenty of reasons, but there's no point in me putting any more of them across, at least not here, and not to you guys.

You have nothing.

Now...run along like a good follower of islam...

 

[Bookreader]

Look what you just did!

You quoted Trinitarian-rendered English translations in support of your non-Trinitarain world-view.

Can we say oxymoron!


Further, you are still afraid to show context.


Typical Muslim.

Actually he did exactly what you asked him to.
He quoted many of the translations trinitarians (and other Christians) use and illustrated his point.
Would you rather he use a text you don't use so you can attack him for using improper translations?

That sounds like the behaviour or someone that moves the goalposts when they get what they repeatedly demand and it goes against what they believe, proving the point of the other person.

Also, the passage does not say 'I am not God' but there is no Biblical verse in existence where Jesus says 'I am God' so it's an argument that carries no weight. What was argued is that the way Jesus replies to the man suggests he needed to rethink about calling Jesus good because only God was good. It is Jesus that draws a distinction. He could have just left it as the phrase 'good teacher' would have been commonly used of others at that time.
The rest of the passage has nothing to do with it and certainly doesn't bolster your argument as you seem to think it does.

btw - so you know: I'm a Christian, not a muslim.

 

[Meshullam]

You have nothing.

Now...run along like a good follower of islam...

In the last of days, present times will be difficult. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of personal gains, boastful spiritual vagabonds, arrogant and disdainful, abusive and slanderous, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, profane, without love, unappeasable and unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the right-mind, treacherous, rash and reckless, conceited, morally muddled lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God— having only a semblance of piety and devotion toward that which is worthy of veneration, but denying the true power it has. Turn away from such as these.


My apologies to any Muslim readers.

 

[mark54]

Like I said, no use flogging a dead horse. I got my view, you got yours, and some of you guys want to resort to all this insinuation to prove a point. I've got no time for it.

Personally, I think the 'trinity' 3 persons in 1 God thing isn't valid for plenty of reasons, but there's no point in me putting any more of them across, at least not here, and not to you guys.

Some of 'em damn/condemn Christians if they don't believe in an equal Trinity(Christ is God Himself) so if they do that to their brothers and sisters, what will they do to you?

 

[Meshullam]

Some of 'em damn/condemn Christians if they don't believe in an equal Trinity(Christ is God Himself) so if they do that to their brothers and sisters, what will they do to you?

My Father once told me that assumption is the seed of all destruction. Thank you Mark, and Bookends.

 

[mark54]

My Father once told me that assumption is the seed of all destruction. Thank you Mark, and Bookends.

One more thing. Nerarly all the ministers in the Trinitarian churches don't push this. They don't tell people from the pulpit they must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation. It is their official doctrine, but they don't push it, they tend to leave it up to the individual how they view this, thery mainly just preach you must believe Christ, the Son of God died for you at Calvary
. Actually hardly any plainly even state from the pulpit.
'Christ is the one true God Himself'
Only a very few would push it, I have never heard any. It is mainly an internet thing

 

[Meshullam]

One more thing. Nerarly all the ministers in the Trinitarian churches don't push this. They don't tell people from the pulpit they must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation. I5t is their official doctrine, but they don't push it, they tend to leave it up to the individual how they view this. Only a very few would push it, I have never heard any. It is mainly an internet thing

I never came across it until I set foot in a congregational environment, personally.

 

[Meshullam]

I find, when looking at many faiths, that there is a 'scope of translation' in which different translations can be carried and followed from the same text. Because it is highly possible in the bible to look at the original writings and make distinctions that other people don't.

I thought a place like this was created to share viewpoints and analyze text and give perhaps afore-hidden insight that others mightn't have come across, all done without snideness and rudeness, (qualitites which should be the 'milk from the teet', long before the 'strong meat'), but it seems that it was, or has become, a fraternity which is only accessible with simple civility to people who belong to a certain 'clan' of faith. Anyone else, can, as they love to say, 'go to hell'.

It's disheartening to say the least.

 

[Bowman]

Actually he did exactly what you asked him to.

Indeed he did....and just as predicted of anyone ignorant of scripture...

He quoted many of the translations trinitarians (and other Christians) use and illustrated his point.
Would you rather he use a text you don't use so you can attack him for using improper translations?

That sounds like the behaviour or someone that moves the goalposts when they get what they repeatedly demand and it goes against what they believe, proving the point of the other person.

As a Trinitarian, I would never use a Unitarian translation in order to make my point for the Trinity.

However, Unitarians that use Trinitarian rendered scripture, do so ignorantly, and cannot defend their version of the rendering against the very translation that they posit for their position.

Also, the passage does not say 'I am not God' but there is no Biblical verse in existence where Jesus says 'I am God' so it's an argument that carries no weight.

Wrong.

What was argued is that the way Jesus replies to the man suggests he needed to rethink about calling Jesus good because only God was good. It is Jesus that draws a distinction. He could have just left it as the phrase 'good teacher' would have been commonly used of others at that time.
The rest of the passage has nothing to do with it and certainly doesn't bolster your argument as you seem to think it does.

Jesus affirms that He is God in that passage.

There is no rebuke made by Jesus to the individual, only acceptance.

btw - so you know: I'm a Christian, not a muslim.

If you deny the Trinity and Jesus' deity, you are definately NOT Christian.

Period.

 

[Bowman]

In the last of days, present times will be difficult. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of personal gains, boastful spiritual vagabonds, arrogant and disdainful, abusive and slanderous, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, profane, without love, unappeasable and unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the right-mind, treacherous, rash and reckless, conceited, morally muddled lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God— having only a semblance of piety and devotion toward that which is worthy of veneration, but denying the true power it has. Turn away from such as these.


My apologies to any Muslim readers.

How do you feel about the authors of the Koran proclaiming that Jesus is God, and the Truth of the Trinity?

 

[Meshullam]

How do you feel about the authors of the Koran proclaiming that Jesus is God, and the Truth of the Trinity?

Do not be mistaken; God of all things is not mocked with disdain, for anything that a man sows, it shall also be reaped. Whoever sows to the carnal of himself, this shall reap corruption and decay, and whoever sows alongside the spirit of holiness, from this he shall reap the ageless life. And in well-doing, we should not lose heart, for in due time we will reap, not fainting. So then, as this occasion we have, we should work in good-will toward all, especially to these intimate of the faithfulness to this.

 

[Bowman]

Do not be mistaken; God of all things is not mocked with disdain, for anything that a man sows, it shall also be reaped. Whoever sows to the carnal of himself, this shall reap corruption and decay, and whoever sows alongside the spirit of holiness, from this he shall reap the ageless life. And in well-doing, we should not lose heart, for in due time we will reap, not fainting. So then, as this occasion we have, we should work in good-will toward all, especially to these intimate of the faithfulness to this.

In addition to using Trinitarian-rendered scriptures for your islamic-stance, how is it that you even used a Bible verse in the first place when islam tells you that the Holy Bible is corrupted?

Your whole argument is a complete farce!

 

[Meshullam]

In addition to using Trinitarian-rendered scriptures for your islamic-stance, how is it that you even used a Bible verse in the first place when islam tells you that the Holy Bible is corrupted?

Your whole argument is a complete farce!

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine.

Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives into waywardness whilst among the wayward.



Bowman, it is not what goes into the mind that shows pollution and corruption, it is what comes out of it. Be careful not to adjudge what is not known in fullness.

 

[Bowman]

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine.

Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives into waywardness whilst among the wayward.



Bowman, it is not what goes into the mind that shows pollution and corruption, it is what comes out of it. Be careful not to adjudge what is not known in fullness.

More Biblical paraphrasing of what you must take as truth.

 

[Bowman]

For followers of Islam to understand the concept of the Biblical Trinity, this can only be accomplished through the teachings found in their very own book of faith.

Since the goal of islam is to instruct Muslims that the Holy Bible is corrupt – no Biblical verse, or analogy will mean anything at all to them.

They will simply reject it.

Period.

All Muslims revere and trust their Koran. Thus, whatever is stated therein is the way that it must be.

To get through to them, you will need to use Koranic verses which demonstrate the concept of the Biblical Trinity.

One such Koranic ayah (which, ironically Muslims are trained to use all the time for their position) actually plainly states that the Trinity is not “three”, but instead, it is “one”, and then proceeds to list out Father, Son, and Spirit…

يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and they do not say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and what is in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.



Observe that this ayah is directed at ‘The Book’s family’ (ahla alkitabi) – which refers to the followers of the Holy Bible; i.e. Christians.

For the Muslim, it then gives instruction as to what the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible needs to be regarding (among numerous things), the concept of the Trinity.

In this classic Islamic one-hit-wonder we are told not to refer to the one “allah” as “Three”, as even his messengers do not say “Three” - because he is not the result of counted things (thalathatun)….and yet, in the very ayah itself it lists-out directly, Father, Son, & Spirit.

This is a classic Koranic example in which the authors display their understanding of the Biblical concept of the Holy Trinity, and give the example of what it is not by the usage of the word “Three”…and what it is, by the example of “one”.

 

[Meshullam]

More Biblical paraphrasing of what you must take as truth.

I have sorrow and pity for you, for whatever you feel like I'm doing that is so horrible. Because it obviously makes you very angry, Bowman. And I'm curious as to why that is?

Does it extend to every person who does not conform to your belief system?

Because, if it does, the days must be very difficult. Genuinely I wouldn't like to feel that way all the time.

 

[Bowman]

I have sorrow and pity for you, for whatever you feel like I'm doing that is so horrible. Because it obviously makes you very angry, Bowman. And I'm curious as to why that is?

Does it extend to every person who does not conform to your belief system?

Because, if it does, the days must be very difficult. Genuinely I wouldn't like to feel that way all the time.

Just admiring the astute ignorance of the followers of the islamic machine...as they use Biblical verses which they do not understand (nor believe in) for their world-view.

 

[Meshullam]

Just admiring the astute ignorance of the followers of the islamic machine...as they use Biblical verses which they do not understand (nor believe in) for their world-view.

4:171

You, brothers and sisters of the book, be certain of this; do not go into excess in your faith; for It (reserved faith) does not say on Allah anything but that which is the truth. The Messiah, the son of Mary, was a carrier of Allah's word (a messenger of Allah), a spirit from God whom was directed TOWARDS Mary from Him (Allah). Do not say: 'three': desist - it is better for you, indeed, because Allah is One God. He is too glorious to give birth to a son (arabic humour about them being 'one'). But to God belongs everything that is in the heavens and the Earth, and He Himself would be a sufficient guardian alone.

Bowman, I'm sorry to disappoint you, I might have studied the Koran, but I'm not a Muslim .. And in fact, there isn't one of these posts where I said I was, either .. that was all your assumption.

It was interesting to experience first hand and sit on the receiving end of how some people decide to treat other faiths though.

 

[Meshullam]

In-case it was my screen name, 'Meshullam' is a Hebrew name, meaning 'Paid for'.