The Trinity

[Bowman]

What offends me is the fact that you speak of three persons. I could accept it if you spoke about the three aspects of God.

You are the only one in this conversation to mention 'three persons'.

Again...YOU presented a chart dividing the ONE God into THREE.

Now...defend it...

Simple.

It isn't hard to understand that one omnipresent God can be in heaven and on earth at the same time.

The Trinity already comprehends this.

This is a man-made doctrine to explain Jesus and like all man-made doctrines it gives the cults a foothold to say that Jesus isn't God because trintarians will insist on breaking up the One Almighty Omnipresent God into three small parts.

The Trinity is NOT the result of counted things.

You still don't quite grasp what you are up against, do you...?

Trintarians play into the hand of Satan by weakening and dividing God, and you know the saying, "United we stand and divided we fall."

The Trinity is One God.

 

[mark54]

I thought I told you guys to stop this thread at page 66!

Well I left it anyway

 

[Bowman]

Well I left it anyway

You burnt-out....just as predicted.

 

[PS]

You are the only one in this conversation to mention 'three persons'.

Again...YOU presented a chart dividing the ONE God into THREE.

Now...defend it...

Simple.

The Trinity already comprehends this.

The Trinity is NOT the result of counted things.

You still don't quite grasp what you are up against, do you...?

The Trinity is One God.

Trinity or Triune means three. I believe in One God.

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".

I don't believe in three distinct persons. Neither do I like Jesus being spoken of as a "substance, essence or nature" sorry.

If you said God is One who reveals himself to us in three ways, I could agree with you, or if you said, Jesus in whom his human and divine natures are united, I could agree, but not as "Three distinct persons." That's wrong.

 

[Bowman]

Keep studying...

Trinity or Triune means three. I believe in One God.

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".

I don't believe in three distinct persons. Neither do I like Jesus being spoken of as a "substance, essence or nature" sorry.

If you said God is One who reveals himself to us in three ways, I could agree with you, or if you said, Jesus in whom his human and divine natures are united, I could agree, but not as "Three distinct persons." That's wrong.

Fact is, scripture clearly shows that the Father is not The Spirit is not The Son.

Distinction is shown.

Separate, and yet the same...this is the Trinity.

Perhaps, if you took some time to study the original languages, this would become crystal clear to you...

 

[PS]

Re: Keep studying...

Fact is, scripture clearly shows that the Father is not The Spirit is not The Son.

Distinction is shown.

Separate, and yet the same...this is the Trinity.

Perhaps, if you took some time to study the original languages, this would become crystal clear to you...

Don't talk down to me Bowman.

 

[Bookreader]

The following verses (and many others) say much the same thing

Acts 7:55,56 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Ephesians 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

1Peter 3:21,22 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Please note these verses say God, not 'the Father'
They do not just make Jesus separate from the Father - as the trinity suggests.
They make Jesus distinct from God.
If Jesus sits at the right hand of God, then Jesus is not God. Or are we to believe these verses are wrong?

In addition, the second 1Peter verse also makes it clear that 'authorities and powers' are given to Jesus. That means He didn't have them already.

It is important I think to not repeat over and over what the trinity idea is - those of us that do not share that view know what the idea is. We know what trinitarians believe.

At least some of us that do not believe the doctrine have come to what we believe from the Bible.
Some of us derived our beliefs from the Bible without being taught by other people.
The trinity has to be taught. As it is self-contradictory (3=1) it will not be exegetically arrived at without being taught by others.

Are there believers in the trinity here who claim to have come to their beliefs without it being taught to them?

 

[PS]

The following verses (and many others) say much the same thing


Please note these verses say God, not 'the Father'
They do not just make Jesus separate from the Father - as the trinity suggests.
They make Jesus distinct from God.
If Jesus sits at the right hand of God, then Jesus is not God. Or are we to believe these verses are wrong?

In addition, the second 1Peter verse also makes it clear that 'authorities and powers' are given to Jesus. That means He didn't have them already.

It is important I think to not repeat over and over what the trinity idea is - those of us that do not share that view know what the idea is. We know what trinitarians believe.

At least some of us that do not believe the doctrine have come to what we believe from the Bible.
Some of us derived our beliefs from the Bible without being taught by other people.
The trinity has to be taught. As it is self-contradictory (3=1) it will not be exegetically arrived at without being taught by others.

Are there believers in the trinity here who claim to have come to their beliefs without it being taught to them?

You are dividing God up again, you don't understand about the relationship between Father and Son, yet Christianity teaches about the rapture and if we can be changed in the "twinkling of an eye" and still be ourselves, then so can God on earth and still be himself. Stop limiting God and denying his omnipresence.

Perhaps Gleason Archer will explain about the Father Son relationship:

"God had to become one of us in order to redeem us from the guilt and penalty of our sin. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth’ ‘(John 1:14).

God as God could not forgive us for our sins unless our sins were fully paid for; otherwise He would have been a condoner and protector of the violation of His own holy law. It was only as a man that God in Christ could furnish satisfaction sufficient to atone for the sins of mankind; for only a man, a true human being, could properly represent the human race.

But at the same time our Redeemer had to be God, for only God could furnish a sacrifice of infinite value, to compensate for the penalty of eternal hell that our sin demands, according to the righteous claims of divine justice. Only God could have devised a way of salvation that made it possible for Him to remain Just and at the same time become the Justifier of the ungodly and instead of sending them to the everlasting perdition they deserved it was the perfect Man who was also infinite God that furnished an effectual sacrifice for all believers of every age."

I'm having the same debate with you about the deity of Jesus as I do with Jehovah Witness and others. Remember Isa 9:6 tells us "his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Don't forget that Immanuel means “God with us.”

Anyway I believe in the deity of Jesus and apparently you seem to think he was just a man and with that I shall put you on ignore. Goodbye.

 

[Meshullam]

I know for certain the God and Jesus are not of equal stature.

Consider these verses, the first in luke;

'Good (agathe) teacher, what must I do to inherit life in fullness?'

'Why do you call me good (agathe)?' Said Jesus, 'There is no-one who is good but One - God'

Agathe means 'instrinsically good, specifically of origin in God. Wholly, completely good'.

Jesus refuses this title.

But he does call himself another kind of 'good', in matthew.

'I am the good (kalos) shepherd, and the good (kalos) shepherd dies for his flock'.

kalos actually means 'worthy, noble', specifically as someone who has attraction which causes others to be infected by their nobility.

Therefore, Jesus and God are NOT of equal stature. Therefore Jesus cannot be THE SAME as God.

Also, I have noticed when reading the hebrew and aramaic root words, everytime 'the HOly Spirit' is used, it is personified in English, but the correct translation is 'the spirit of Holiness', used in context like our English 'in the spirit of good-will', as more a perspective that is gleaned and cultivated for one to 'walk in the path of', rather than a physical, or metaphysical entity floating around.

And likewise, being 'touched', is akin to 'being inspired' (which is actually a form of the word 'spirit').

 

[Meshullam]

I also came across many other slightly wayward translations in the KJV, and subsequent bibles that had been used as reference in translation.

So, personally, I do not see the trinity myself. I do see how God has the spirit of holiness in fullness, and how his will is done by the man Jesus who was born of the 'seed' of God. and I do see how the Son is the perfect Son who came to 'do the will of my Father who sent me', but as for them being of one conjoined entity, rather than 'one mind' or 'one perspective', I do not see that.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Keep studying...

Don't talk down to me Bowman.

Pick a verse which you feel 'supports' your world-view, and we can review it together, and see who has the better understanding of it.

Continually posting a name and number to a verse, and claiming it supports your position is not going to convince anyone...

 

[Bowman]

I know for certain the God and Jesus are not of equal stature.

Consider these verses, the first in luke;

'Good (agathe) teacher, what must I do to inherit life in fullness?'

'Why do you call me good (agathe)?' Said Jesus, 'There is no-one who is good but One - God'

Agathe means 'instrinsically good, specifically of origin in God. Wholly, completely good'.

Jesus refuses this title.

Wrong.

If you had bothered to show the context of your paraphrased example you will quickly see that Jesus is NOT denying that He is good.

No where does Jesus rebuke the individual for applying this title to Him.

In fact, the conversation continues on without hesitation.

This is a classic lame argument used by unitarians such as Muslims....

 

[PS]

Re: Keep studying...

Pick a verse which you feel 'supports' your world-view, and we can review it together, and see who has the better understanding of it.

Continually posting a name and number to a verse, and claiming it supports your position is not going to convince anyone...

There is one God. It says so in the Bible and there can only be One God. Just because you don't understand how Almighty God can be body, soul and spirit isn't my problem.

I'm finished with this topic. I had put you on ignore, or I thought I had, I don't know how you post appeared. I will try again.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Keep studying...

There is one God. It says so in the Bible and there can only be One God. Just because you don't understand how Almighty God can be body, soul and spirit isn't my problem.

I'm finished with this topic. I had put you on ignore, or I thought I had, I don't know how you post appeared. I will try again.

So...

When the going gets tough, you place people on 'ignore'....nice!

Nope....not very convincing at all...

 

[Meshullam]

Wrong.

If you had bothered to show the context of your paraphrased example you will quickly see that Jesus is NOT denying that He is good.

No where does Jesus rebuke the individual for applying this title to Him.

In fact, the conversation continues on without hesitation.

This is a classic lame argument used by unitarians such as Muslims....

'Why do you call me 'agathe''?, no-one is 'agathe' except the God.

Sounds like Jesus din't want the man calling him 'agathe' like God ...

But why would the conversation have to end after that? I see no reason.

Jesus goes on to cite the commandments and the young man tells him he has kept them, then Jesus says 'go and sell everything you have and give oit to the poor' and the man hesitates.

Because, you can't inherit life in fullness when we cling to material possession, and more subtly, when everything we do is for ourselves, or for 'gain'.

He knew the man wouldn't give things away, because he's following commands for the wrong reasons anyway.

So, that's the context ...

And it wasn't paraphrased the first example .. the only thing I added was the greek root word.

 

[Bowman]

'Why do you call me 'agathe''?, no-one is 'agathe' except the God.

Sounds like Jesus din't want the man calling him 'agathe' like God ...

But why would the conversation have to end after that? I see no reason.

Jesus goes on to cite the commandments and the young man tells him he has kept them, then Jesus says 'go and sell everything you have and give oit to the poor' and the man hesitates.

Because, you can't inherit life in fullness when we cling to material possession, and more subtly, when everything we do is for ourselves, or for 'gain'.

He knew the man wouldn't give things away, because he's following commands for the wrong reasons anyway.

So, that's the context ...

And it wasn't paraphrased the first example .. the only thing I added was the greek root word.

You're still paraphrasing.

Why don't you directly quote a rendering or original language if you are confident in your assertion?

 

[PS]

Mar_10:18. Jesus’ object was not to infer that He was not good, for the Scriptures plainly teach His goodness, above all men, but to raise the man’s view of His person. The ruler had called Him “Master” (teacher) and looked upon Him merely as a great man, on the same plane with himself (Mar_10:20). Jesus was God, but until His divinity was acknowledged He could not accept the title “good.”

Jesus used to quiz people to get them to think and acknowledge who he was, he did the same with the woman at the well.

 

[Meshullam]

You're still paraphrasing.

Why don't you directly quote a rendering or original language if you are confident in your assertion?

Because I don't feel like I have to prove anything.

For me, it's simple.

 

[Meshullam]

But anyway, here are all the common translations:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: btext, colspan: 2"]New International Version (©2011)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.New Living Translation (©2007)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Only God is truly good.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
"Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One--God.
International Standard Version (©2012)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Nobody is good except for one—God.
NET Bible (©2006)
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good except the one God.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And Jesus said unto him, Why call me good? none is good, except one, that is, God.
American King James Version
And Jesus said to him, Why call you me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
American Standard Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone.
Darby Bible Translation
But Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, God.
English Revised Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God.
Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God.
Weymouth New Testament
"Why do you call me good?" replied Jesus; "there is no one good but One, namely God.
World English Bible
Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one--God.
Young's Literal Translation
And Jesus said to him, 'Why me dost thou call good? no one is good, except One -- God;[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Jesus is saying to the man 'I'm not what you call me. Don't see me that way. ONLY GOD IS THAT WAY'

Why do you call ME (Jesus) Good. Only GOD (Not Jesus) is Good.

 

[Bowman]

But anyway, here are all the common translations:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: btext, colspan: 2"]New International Version (©2011)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.New Living Translation (©2007)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Only God is truly good.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
"Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One--God.
International Standard Version (©2012)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Nobody is good except for one—God.
NET Bible (©2006)
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good except the one God.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And Jesus said unto him, Why call me good? none is good, except one, that is, God.
American King James Version
And Jesus said to him, Why call you me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
American Standard Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone.
Darby Bible Translation
But Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, God.
English Revised Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God.
Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God.
Weymouth New Testament
"Why do you call me good?" replied Jesus; "there is no one good but One, namely God.
World English Bible
Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one--God.
Young's Literal Translation
And Jesus said to him, 'Why me dost thou call good? no one is good, except One -- God;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Jesus is saying to the man 'I'm not what you call me. Don't see me that way. ONLY GOD IS THAT WAY'

Why do you call ME (Jesus) Good. Only GOD (Not Jesus) is Good.

Look what you just did!

You quoted Trinitarian-rendered English translations in support of your non-Trinitarain world-view.

Can we say oxymoron!


Further, you are still afraid to show context.


Typical Muslim.



Here is the context…



Mark 10.17 – 21

And He having gone out into the highway, running up and kneeling down to Him, one questioned Him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? But Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, God. You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not commit murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your father and mother. (Ex. 20:12-16) And answering, he said to Him, Teacher, I observed all these from my youth. And looking at him, Jesus loved him, and said to him, One thing is lacking to you. Go, sell what things you have, and give to the poor. And you will have treasure in Heaven. And come, follow Me, taking up the cross.


So...where does Jesus say...'I am not God'...?