The Trinity

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I know this puts you in an impossible position, but I have given you three plain and clear verse of scripture as to the belief eternal life hinges on as to who Christ is unto salvation
So far you have given me NONE.
I have given you no extrapolations of scripture to support what I believe, just the plain text, that's it.

As for Peter, James, John and Paul, as you brought it up

Please tell me why you believe they did not clearly and plainly state in their letters what to you is the core of the Christian faith and eternal life hinges on believing. As far as I can see there can only be two possible reasons. Either they were not blessed with the spiirtual insight and knowledge a few of you are on websites like these and elsewhere, or, they woefully failed their readers by not plainly telling them that on which eternal life hinged
Christ, Paul and John can actually be quoted as plainly contradicting what you stress eternal life hinges on believing.

And can you tell me by what authority you refuse to accept the requiremnt of belief unto salvation that Christ himself laid dowmn as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life by adding to it

Again, I have cited 1 John 5.20 as proof, and yet here we are going around again for round two. You just simply just ignore it. If you don't like it, you ignore it. You don't actually deal with any objections that are raised. And I have this gut wrenching feeling that if I were to cite a text of Scripture, you would respond with some with some kind of syllogism. I would argue, if these Apostles thought nothing of the Deity of Christ, they would not have spent their time, as John thoroughly did, even mentioning it. For that matter, they wouldn't even have had to written any form of defense of the faith at all.

My argument has been the same all along, those of Christ's flock know Him in such a way that the NT reveals. To "know" the Son of God does not simply mean to make a profession of faith with a simple "hallelujah, I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God!" But rather to actually know Him in such a way that the NT reveals Him (meaning if you truly are one of Christ's then the NT will not contradict what you believe to be true of the Son of God). If the NT revealed the Son of God as nothing more than a mere man, with no Divine substance, and we were out teaching that the NT teaches a Divine Christ, then I would say the shoe is on the other foot, and that it is the Trinitarian who is condemned.

 

[mark54]

Again, I have cited 1 John 5.20 as proof, and yet here we are going around again for round two. You just simply just ignore it. If you don't like it, you ignore it. You don't actually deal with any objections that are raised. And I have this gut wrenching feeling that if I were to cite a text of Scripture, you would respond with some with some kind of syllogism. I would argue, if these Apostles thought nothing of the Deity of Christ, they would not have spent their time, as John thoroughly did, even mentioning it. For that matter, they wouldn't even have had to written any form of defense of the faith at all.

My argument has been the same all along, those of Christ's flock know Him in such a way that the NT reveals. To "know" the Son of God does not simply mean to make a profession of faith with a simple "hallelujah, I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God!" But rather to actually know Him in such a way that the NT reveals Him (meaning the NT will not contradict what you believe to be true of the Son of God). If the NT revealed the Son of God as nothing more than a mere man, with no Divine substance, and we were out teaching that the NT teaches a Divine Christ, then I would say the shoe is on the other foot.

So you have ignored my questions, you have never if I remember correctly responded to 1John4:15 which absolutely as clear as day states the required belief as to who Christ is unto salvation, so does 1John5:13 which I also quoted, and John 17:3 where Christ plainly states only the Father is the one true God. All of this you have to ignore
Yet you harp on about 1John 5:20 which does not plainly state a person must believe Christ is the Son of God and God Himself unto salvation. If you would like some more plain scriptures to support the belief I know is required as to who Christ is unto salvation, just ask and I will give them to you.

I repeat, as Trinitarian ministers freely admit to me there is no plain verse of scripture in the bible that states Christ is the one true God it seems strange to me you are trying to make a verse fit to your extra biblical demands. But like I say you ignore my questions to you, but I will give you more plain scripture if you want
Bottom line is, I can, you can't

 

[cfultz3]

G-Buy,

It is apparent that Mark is looking for a debate.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[mark54]

G-Buy,

It is apparent that Mark is looking for a debate.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Actually there is no debate for GBUY has no scriptures to support his extra biblical demands unto salvation
Have you any Cfultz?

 

[mark54]

Below is the truth of the matter



And so, neither Christ, Paul, Peter, James, or John commanded anyone to believe Christ was the one true God Himself unto salvation, neither do nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers from their pulpits, neither would at least 90%(proabably far higher than that) of people who go to Trinitarian churches
But people who are well read of scholars and theologians on the internet do demand it

 

[cfultz3]

Mark,

With all due respect to you, of the almost 2000 posts, I assume about 1500 are from exchanging communications between you and others concerning if Jesus is God or not. I have yet to see the slightest change in your stance. Yet, the debate continues with you saying the same thing over and over and not given even the slightest regard to anything anyone is saying. Again, I say this with due respect, but if you are unwilling to even discuss the verses given by others in their rebuttals how do you expect them to give you consideration?

P.S. It is the administration of the Holy Spirit to convince one of the Truth. One can only present what is spoken of God in His humanity, yet conviction is placed on one's conscience by the Spirit.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

1 John 4.15, 5.13 is abundantly clear. However, you're overlooking one small factor. The passage cannot mean that if he merely says so in words, or if he does it insincerely, or without any proper sense of the truth, it will prove that he is a Christian. On the meaning of the sentiment here expressed, see Romans 10.10.

As I said previously, to "know" Christ is to know Him in such a way that the NT reveals Him. And if the NT indicates that the Son is of the same substance as the Father, equal to God, and the authors, who filled with the Holy Spirit, use Septuagint YHWH texts in reference to Christ, then it ultimately tells us something essential about the Son of God.

 

[mark54]

Mark,

With all due respect to you, of the almost 2000 posts, I assume about 1500 are from exchanging communications between you and others concerning if Jesus is God or not. I have yet to see the slightest change in your stance. Yet, the debate continues with you saying the same thing over and over and not given even the slightest regard to anything anyone is saying. Again, I say this with due respect, but if you are unwilling to even discuss the verses given by others in their rebuttals how do you expect them to give you consideration?

P.S. It is the administration of the Holy Spirit to convince one of the Truth. One can only present what is spoken of God in His humanity, yet conviction is placed on one's conscience by the Spirit.

I have in this thread three times addressed 1John 5:20, if you or GBUY want to trawl back threough the thread feel free, however, GBUY has not responded to 1John 5:13 or 1John4:15, lets be honest Cfultz, you are totally baised and just trying to help out a friend here, or someone who has your beliefs. Honesty is important you know
Yes, the Holy Spirit leads into truth, and I know He ill lead no one to contradict the requirement of belief unto salvation Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be by adding to it
If you disagree, please confirm this

 

[Bowman]

Again, I have cited 1 John 5.20 as proof, and yet here we are going around again for round two. You just simply just ignore it. If you don't like it, you ignore it. You don't actually deal with any objections that are raised.

Mark is a broken record.

No one ever 'answers' his 'questions'...and he tells everyone that he is putting them on 'ignore'.

He has nothing and he knows it....

 

[mark54]

1 John 4.15, 5.13 is abundantly clear. However, you're overlooking one small factor. The passage cannot mean that if he merely says so in words, or if he does it insincerely, or without any proper sense of the truth, it will prove that he is a Christian. On the meaning of the sentiment here expressed, see Romans 10.10.

As I said previously, to "know" Christ is to know Him in such a way that the NT reveals Him. And if the NT indicates that the Son is of the same substance as the Father, equal to God, and the authors, who filled with the Holy Spirit, use Septuagint YHWH texts in reference to Christ, then it ultimately tells us something essential about the Son of God.

Whichever way you try and spin it, as you do not have the plain scripture, it is a fact, that the BIBLICAL requirement as to who Christ must be believed to be to inherit eternal life is to believe he is the Son of God, it IS NOT to believe he is the Son of God AND God Himself.

the plain scripture backs up what I believe, for I go by scripture, you have none to support your view

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I have in this thread three times addressed 1John 5:20, if you or GBUY want to trawl back threough the thread feel free, however, GBUY has not responded to 1John 5:13 or 1John4:15, lets be honest Cfultz, you are totally baised and just trying to help out a friend here, or someone who has your beliefs. Honesty is important you know
Yes, the Holy Spirit leads into truth, and I know He ill lead no one to contradict the requirement of belief unto salvation Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be by adding to it
If you disagree, please confirm this

Oh, you mean you've given an exposition on 1 John 5.20? No more "plain scriptures"? I just responded to 1 John 5.13, thank you.

 

[cfultz3]

I have in this thread three times addressed 1John 5:20, if you or GBUY want to trawl back threough the thread feel free, however, GBUY has not responded to 1John 5:13 or 1John4:15, lets be honest Cfultz, you are totally baised and just trying to help out a friend here, or someone who has your beliefs. Honesty is important you know
Yes, the Holy Spirit leads into truth, and I know He ill lead no one to contradict the requirement of belief unto salvation Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be by adding to it
If you disagree, please confirm this

I know I broke my word back about 1000 posts when I said that I would not speak to you about this matter again until you humble yourself, but as you wish Mark. Continue denying Christ His Deity. That is between you and Him.

 

[mark54]

Oh, you mean you've given an exposition on 1 John 5.20? No more "plain scriptures"? I just responded to 1 John 5.13, thank you.

You have no plain scripture to support your extra biblical demands for salvation
I havev plenty of plain scripture that states who a person must believe Christ to be to inherit eternal life
That fact stands no matter how much you try and evade it

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Whichever way you try and spin it, as you do not have the plain scripture, it is a fact, that the BIBLICAL requirement as to who Christ must be believed to be to inherit eternal life is to believe he is the Son of God, it IS NOT to believe he is the Son of God AND God Himself.

the plain scripture backs up what I believe, for I go by scripture, you have none to support your view

No, it is to believe whatever, all things that the New Testament, and the Biblical data reveals concerning the Son of God, including His absolute Deity.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Wow. This is STILL going? lol

 

[mark54]

No, it is to believe whatever, all things that the New Testament, and the Biblical data reveals concerning the Son of God, including His absolute Deity.

Arius believed in the divinity of Christ, do you accept someone with his views was saved/a Christian, or is diety not the bottom line here?

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

You have no plain scripture to support your extra biblical demands for salvation
I havev plenty of plain scripture that states who a person must believe Christ to be to inherit eternal life
That fact stands no matter how much you try and evade it

It's not "evading," it's just that you simply have no answer to the objections, so you cry afoul.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Arius believed in the divinity of Christ, do you accept someone with his views was saved/a Christian, or is diety not the bottom line here?

No, because Arius did not believe in the absolute Deity of Christ. He believed Christ to be the first-created of God's creation, and of a lesser substance, and that goes contradictory to the NT data.

 

[mark54]

It's not "evading," it's just that you simply have no answer to the objections, so you cry afoul.

You have no scripture whatsoever from the entire Bible to back up your demands as to what is required belief unto salvation
But you do have your man made exztrapolations

Please tell me, by what authority do you refuse to accept the requirement of belief as to who Christ must be belived to be according to Christ himself unto salvation by adding to it?

 

[mark54]

No, because Arius did not believe in the absolute Deity of Christ. He believed Christ to be the first-created of God's creation, and of a lesser substance, and that goes contradictory to the NT data.

Where is the plainly writen data that states Christ is the one true God Himself and eternal life hinges on believing it?

What you mean is, you and your scholars snd theologians have extrapolated scripture to the point of contradicting the plain text