The two witnesses

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May 15, 2013
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#61
Deuteronomy 17:6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

Matthew 18:16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’

John 8:17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.

Matthew 21:1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples,

Mark 6:7 Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#62
I think the reason that satan wanted Moses' body was to make it a memorial place...can you imagine the shrine he would have built with the body of Moses in it. It would have kept people stuck to the Law and created an idol out of him. Satan uses the law to accuse us. His name means 'accuser" which is an accuser at law ( Vines ) and devil = adversary which means "to throw through "..satan throws accusations against us.

Revelation 12:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#63
I would only argue that Moses had not received a glorified body. He was resurrected in his earthly body like Lazarus later to die again. Moses was at the transfiguration, which I would conclude that he is alive as is Elijah who was there.


The above is again conjecture. Please provide the scripture that states that the reason that they could not find Moses body was because he had been resurrected. All other people that were raised back to life in scripture died again. The true resurrection is where we will be transformed into those immortal, glorified bodies and never to die again. Of this group Jesus is the first fruits, which means that Moses could not have experienced a true resurrection as mentioned above and that because again, Jesus was the first fruits. The meaning behind not finding his body, is because God buried him where no one could find him, not because he resurrected.
 
May 15, 2013
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#64
Moses and Elijah were for the ones of the old covenant, to witnessed what they were doing. Like those that under the laws sit in Moses' seat, which means that they will judge accordingly to the laws. But under Elijah, they are judge by their faith. Abraham and the rest was judged as being righteous not because of the works of the laws, but by faith. They will never had became righteous through the laws because they were weak and not able to keep from violating the laws. And so now our two witnesses are the O.T. and the N.T. the ones live by the O.T. will perish under them.

Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

And so I would like to be judge apart from the laws because I know that I could not uphold them all, and if no one cannot uphold just one, then they are considered as being worthless. Look what happened to Adam and Eve, they just violated one, and it was just for eating a single fruit, that they were considered as being worthless, that they could not be in the presence of God.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#65
I think the reason that satan wanted Moses' body was to make it a memorial place...can you imagine the shrine he would have built with the body of Moses in it. It would have kept people stuck to the Law and created an idol out of him. Satan uses the law to accuse us. His name means 'accuser" which is an accuser at law ( Vines ) and devil = adversary which means "to throw through "..satan throws accusations against us.

Revelation 12:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
Hello Grace777X70,

I always wondered where Jude got that information from? What was he reading that he knew that Satan and Michael were arguing over Moses body? Because, we don't have that information anywhere in our current scriptures. I would think that it would be more likely that Satan wanted Moses body to deceive Israel in some way.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#66
The Holy Spirit gave him that information. I would say that Satan does not want him returning to be a witness of the Lord's return to rule the kingdom in which Satan is ruling right now.


Hello Grace777X70,

I always wondered where Jude got that information from? What was he reading that he knew that Satan and Michael were arguing over Moses body? Because, we don't have that information anywhere in our current scriptures. I would think that it would be more likely that Satan wanted Moses body to deceive Israel in some way.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#67
Hey brother!....I have no idea where he got that info from either. I checked a few commentaries and they all say.."No one knows for sure"......it was thought to come from some rabbinical writings .



Hello Grace777X70,

I always wondered where Jude got that information from? What was he reading that he knew that Satan and Michael were arguing over Moses body? Because, we don't have that information anywhere in our current scriptures. I would think that it would be more likely that Satan wanted Moses body to deceive Israel in some way.
 
Feb 21, 2016
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#68
I'll be back on Friday most likely to back this up with scriptures since I don't have my own computer and Typing on a gaming system is too time consuming.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#69
I'll be back on Friday most likely to back this up with scriptures since I don't have my own computer and Typing on a gaming system is too time consuming.
Hello Lifted,

Well that is what I have been saying, there is no scripture to back up what you are proclaiming. Anything that you do provide will most likely be gained from the spiritualizing of scripture. There is just no scripture that would identify the two witnesses as being symbolic representing the word of God. There is however a great deal of detailed information demonstrating that the two witnesses are exactly who scripture says they are, two living beings who will prophecy for 1,260 days. My advice to you is to take what is written of them at face value, that is, in the literal sense..
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
#70
It will be two dudes and most likely Enoch and Elijah as they are the only ones that we know of according to the bible that have not died.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#71
Matt 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

As mentioned before, "These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire." is characteristic of Elijah and Moses (who are also represented in scripture as "Spirit" (although I can see how one can argue for or against this) and the "Law").

And, as I believe that The Revelation was given at the Transfiguration, we also have: Matt 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

The Bible says regarding Peter, "not realizing what he was saying". (Luke 9:33), but I can't help but wonder why he said it. But, I do admit, that he could have said it just because Moses and Elijah were present.

Also, Jesus told them, "“Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”, which would place the writing after Jesus' resurrection. The extremely late dates between 90-100AD have no merit - that I've seen anyway.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#72
oh, regarding taking things literally, I don't know how one could avoid the persistent "soon" and "quickly", as well as “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." and "delay no longer ".

There is a sense of immediacy throughout the Revelation!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#73
oh, regarding taking things literally, I don't know how one could avoid the persistent "soon" and "quickly", as well as “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." and "no longer delay".

There is a sense of immediacy throughout the Revelation!
The word that you are looking for is "Imminency," which means on the horizon, about to happen, in the workings, looming, etc. It carries the same idea that the Lord demonstrated when he said for us to watch because we wouldn't know at what time he would return, only that it is always near (imminent). Regarding "soon" and "quickly," regarding "the day of the Lord," the OT saints used the same words in regards to it being near and coming quickly and the day of the Lord has yet to take place.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#74
The word that you are looking for is "Imminency," which means on the horizon, about to happen, in the workings, looming, etc. It carries the same idea that the Lord demonstrated when he said for us to watch because we wouldn't know at what time he would return, only that it is always near (imminent). Regarding "soon" and "quickly," regarding "the day of the Lord," the OT saints used the same words in regards to it being near and coming quickly and the day of the Lord has yet to take place.
Well, I would have to disagree.

You, I'm sure, have noticed that many of prophets spoke of things happening in a present tense when they didn't actually happen for hundreds of years. The NT shows how these things were fulfilled in Jesus' lifetime and shortly after. And I am also sure that you know that the apostles make several references to those days being the "last days":

in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, [SUP]3 [/SUP]unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, [SUP]4 [/SUP]treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, [SUP]5 [/SUP]holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. (This was addressed to Timothy - how would Timothy avoid these men if they were not there)

But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:[SUP]17 [/SUP]‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Here, Peter testifies to the fulfillment of something specifically assigned to "The Last Days" as being fulfilled at that time.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#75
I would also suggest that when John said, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day", he was speaking of the very same "that day" and "The Day of the Lord".

While I am not certain of that, there seems to be more evidence that he refers to "The Day of the Lord" than just a random Sunday.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#76
John also says, "your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, which futurist deny to be the Tribulation and Kingdom mentioned in scripture.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#77
And I am also sure that you know that the apostles make several references to those days being the "last days":
They spoke in that manner because the Lord's return was imminent to them as well, just as it has been for every generation til this very day. When Peter was quoting Joel, he should have stopped when he got to the part of the prophecy regarding the wonders in the sky, the blood and fire, and vapor of smoke and that because those things had not and still have not taken place. Again, they referred to their time as the last day, because it was imminent to them as well. The sun has not yet been turned to darkness, the moon into blood nor has the day of the Lord come. Nothing from Revelation 4 onward has taken place. But when those seals, trumpets and bowl judgments begin to take place, this world will be in utter chaos!
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#78
Peter or Ahwatukee....who to believe?
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#79
Maybe Peter was confused...being full of the Holy Spirit and all.

Should we take Luke, Acts, 1 Peter, and 2 Peter out of God's inspired Word.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#80
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death



2 Tim 2:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,