The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)
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S
God does have behavior expectations for Christians. Collectively these could be called "the law". If you are trying to assert that "the law" means the Torah, I have plenty of evidence that this isn't true, including my standard reply.
The law of Christ would be one way of viewing these behavior expectations.
Christ is the full measure of God's holiness. We look to him instead of a written code. The written code was just a faint flicker of holiness, not the fullness that is in Christ.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
The law of Christ would be one way of viewing these behavior expectations.
Christ is the full measure of God's holiness. We look to him instead of a written code. The written code was just a faint flicker of holiness, not the fullness that is in Christ.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
S
You may have meant that to be funny, but there are many things you can't do that are part of Torah, including festival observance.
You can make something up that you call the Torah and pretend like you're observing it, but you can't observe the Old Covenant.
Deut 14:22“You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
My understanding is that this is talking about the Feast of Tabernacles or Booths. How can a person come before the Lord in the place where he will choose, if there is no one to specify this?
In my Sabbath/festival keeping cult, the church leader chose it, but this is not faithful to Scripture, as God himself needed to choose it, and these individuals had no authority to choose the place. There's no proof of their authority. They can claim what they want. Right now about 20 other individuals claim Herbert Armstrong's mantle of authority. In reality, though, they can't prove their authority.
You can make something up that you call the Torah and pretend like you're observing it, but you can't observe the Old Covenant.
Deut 14:22“You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
My understanding is that this is talking about the Feast of Tabernacles or Booths. How can a person come before the Lord in the place where he will choose, if there is no one to specify this?
In my Sabbath/festival keeping cult, the church leader chose it, but this is not faithful to Scripture, as God himself needed to choose it, and these individuals had no authority to choose the place. There's no proof of their authority. They can claim what they want. Right now about 20 other individuals claim Herbert Armstrong's mantle of authority. In reality, though, they can't prove their authority.
S
The word for law is "towrah" and it means teachings in general. The Old Covenant was a faint glimmer of God's holiness, but the full revelation of holiness is in Christ. We have Christ now, through the Holy Spirit and the writings of the Apostles. That is a much fuller revelation than the Old Covenant.
Besides this, orthodox Christians do not think the law has no application for today anyways. The question is whether ceremonial aspects such as the Sabbath, Holy Days, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing are applicable today. The Torah has underlying moral principles which are absolutes in many cases. The specific application doesn't apply, but the moral principles are still valid. David had the Holy Spirit and could see these underlying moral principles. I doubt if he was a legalist like your lot is. In fact, I know he "broke the rules" at times with no consequences, such as when he took the showbread for his men.
S
Maybe because Scripture itself called the Old Covenant bondage and slavery.
Read Galatians 4. A parallel is drawn between Sarai and Hagar.
Sarai is characterized as the New Covenant. Her children are described as those who are under the New Covenant. They are characterized as those who are born through promise. They are characterized as being free.
Hagar, the slave woman, is characterized as the Old Covenant. Her children are described as those who are under the Old Covenant. They are those that desire to be under the law, like the Judaizers Paul was combatting. They are characterized as those who are born under the flesh. Her children are described as born under slavery; the Jews of the time who were under slavery to the Law.
Notice that they will be cast out.
Galatians 4:
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[SUP]e[/SUP] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,[SUP]f[/SUP] brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
In addition, see this Scripture:
Romans 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The law is bondage in the sense that it never really could justify us; it could only condemn us. Not one of us measures up to it. To a person who is honest, this forces them to realize they cannot be holy, so they turn to Christ knowing that they are a sinner and will never measure up. Once they come to Christ, they have the fuller revelation of holiness through the Holy Spirit, which not only leads them into all truth through the Scriptures, but also empowers them to obey that which applies to them. The law really only defines gross immorality, but through the writings about Christ and the apostolic writings, they come to a deeper understanding of holiness through focusing on Jesus Christ rather than the law. The law is mostly for unbelievers, as it only defines gross immorality. It's also full of specific applications that applied to the Israelites, although there are general moral principles behind those specific applications in some cases.
Your basic premise is faulty. The Law is not perfect. Ro 8:2-3
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV
If God had intended the Law to be perfect; he would not have anticipated its failure in: Ge 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
KJV
and Ge 22:8
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
KJV
andLev 17:11
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
KJV
The intent of the Law was to demonstrate its own inadequacy.
S
You specifically told me that non Sabbathkeepers are unsaved. Your whole contemptuous attitude toward others proves your disdain for everyone else.
Anyone with discernment who reads your posts knows that you have contempt for them.
I was the same way as a Sabbath and festival observer, although I wasn't indiscreet enough to be so open about it. You are full of pride and a sense of spiritual superiority. And you have tried to push your views on the Bible study chat room.
Anyone with discernment who reads your posts knows that you have contempt for them.
I was the same way as a Sabbath and festival observer, although I wasn't indiscreet enough to be so open about it. You are full of pride and a sense of spiritual superiority. And you have tried to push your views on the Bible study chat room.
Ro 8:2-3
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I believe that the Law of God, that the psalmist refers to, is and looks forward to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, NOT the law of Moses, which is the law of sin and death.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I believe that the Law of God, that the psalmist refers to, is and looks forward to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, NOT the law of Moses, which is the law of sin and death.
"The intent of the Law was to demonstrate its own inadequacy."
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:7)
Paul disagrees with you.
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:7)
Paul disagrees with you.
=Eliwood;2095658]
The truth that the psalmist delighted in God's Commandments is unchanging.
The inference that we do well to delight in God's Word (personified by Jesus) is also true.
The WAY of righteousness is and always has been faith in God's provision!
Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Job, among others, found the way to righteousness without the Law.
Ro 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Furthermore, David, an adulterer and a murder is called by God a man after mine own heart:Ac 13:20-22
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
all this in spite of the law!
There are TWO covenants: the OLD and the NEW (actually there are several others but tor the purpose of this discussion I choose to temporarily ignore them).
Heb 8:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Law is unchanged! Both covenants still exist and are NOT in conflict with one another. You can NOT be under both covenants at the same time.
In order to derive righteousness from the Law it is necessary to keep every precept flawlessly and perpetually.
When we allow Jesus to be our righteousness, we accept that He indeed kept every precept flawlessly and perpetually on our behalf; because He knew we could not do so.
The Sabbath is and always will be sundown Friday through sundown Saturday. Under the New Covenant, it is NOT imposed on anyone; but I believe there is great value in observing it.
Jesus IS the WORD (Jn 1:1-14) and he is indeed forever.
The truth that the psalmist delighted in God's Commandments is unchanging.
The inference that we do well to delight in God's Word (personified by Jesus) is also true.
The WAY of righteousness is and always has been faith in God's provision!
Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Job, among others, found the way to righteousness without the Law.
Ro 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Furthermore, David, an adulterer and a murder is called by God a man after mine own heart:Ac 13:20-22
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
all this in spite of the law!
There are TWO covenants: the OLD and the NEW (actually there are several others but tor the purpose of this discussion I choose to temporarily ignore them).
Heb 8:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Law is unchanged! Both covenants still exist and are NOT in conflict with one another. You can NOT be under both covenants at the same time.
In order to derive righteousness from the Law it is necessary to keep every precept flawlessly and perpetually.
When we allow Jesus to be our righteousness, we accept that He indeed kept every precept flawlessly and perpetually on our behalf; because He knew we could not do so.
The Sabbath is and always will be sundown Friday through sundown Saturday. Under the New Covenant, it is NOT imposed on anyone; but I believe there is great value in observing it.
Jesus IS the WORD (Jn 1:1-14) and he is indeed forever.
That is still true; but under the New Covenant our sin(s) is (are) forgiven.
Ro 8:1-11
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Jesus is the Word, and He is God; and He has kept the Law perfectly on our behalf and sacrificed Himself in order that our sin be hidden from the Father's sight by His righteousness, which He graciously imparts to us since we have none of our own.
Ro 3:21-28
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Isa 64:5-6
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
NEVER! All its precepts are still delightful. We now understand that delightful as it is, it is incapable of imparting righteousness; therefore while we delight in the Law, we trust Jesus for our righteousness.
Ro 8:1-11
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Jesus is the Word, and He is God; and He has kept the Law perfectly on our behalf and sacrificed Himself in order that our sin be hidden from the Father's sight by His righteousness, which He graciously imparts to us since we have none of our own.
Ro 3:21-28
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Isa 64:5-6
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
NEVER! All its precepts are still delightful. We now understand that delightful as it is, it is incapable of imparting righteousness; therefore while we delight in the Law, we trust Jesus for our righteousness.
S
I have no issue with this, however, this doesn't prove that the law needs to be observed today, if by that you mean the Sabbath, Holy Days, triple tithing, etcetera.
The prophets also wrote about animal sacrifices during the Millennium, but I doubt those will happen (Zech 14:20-21). Why would animal sacrifices occur if the one Sacrifice has already been made in Jesus Christ? Some say that they would be done as a memorial, but I doubt it. By the way, that is the typical dispensationist view, and I am not classical dispensationist if that is what you mean by dispensationist.
I think the prophets described things in such a manner that the Israelites could understand them. The prophets were describing a return to the true worship of God. I don't know that the specific details were conveyed to them in the prophets, or just the general concept of a return to obedience. Like I said, I think it would be counter-intuitive to re-establish a sacrificial system after the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. The blood of animals never took away any sins.
The focus in the Millennium will be on learning from God. It is a reversal of the situation in the Garden of Eden where we rejected God's guidance and pursued our own self-governance, which will lead to our near-extinction.
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S
I am not worried about my salvation in the least. My faith is in Jesus Christ and his righteousness. I received the merits of his perfect life lived on my behalf when I accepted his sacrifice.
You told me that non Sabbathkeepers are still in their sins and unsaved. I specifically asked that question to you as it was my past view. You may claim it's not your place to condemn others, but what do you believe? Are they still in their sins and unsaved or not? Can a non Sabbathkeeper be a saved person without ever keeping the Sabbath?
You told me that non Sabbathkeepers are still in their sins and unsaved. I specifically asked that question to you as it was my past view. You may claim it's not your place to condemn others, but what do you believe? Are they still in their sins and unsaved or not? Can a non Sabbathkeeper be a saved person without ever keeping the Sabbath?
=Eliwood;2095658]
We are still at liberty to try; but to some of us it seems wiser to believe God's Word, which tells we are not able to do so!
It is still true; and everyone who has ever attempted to do that duty has failed! That is why Jesus, in His grace and mercy has done it for us.
Because we believe God when He tells us we are unable to do so and that Jesus did it for us.
We are still at liberty to try; but to some of us it seems wiser to believe God's Word, which tells we are not able to do so!
It is still true; and everyone who has ever attempted to do that duty has failed! That is why Jesus, in His grace and mercy has done it for us.
Because we believe God when He tells us we are unable to do so and that Jesus did it for us.