The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

[Assayah]

The verse you are using here from Daniel 7:25 is speaking of the man of sin who is to come in the tribulation period.
For he will change times and laws because he will stop the daily sacrifices that the Jews will return to doing after the temple has been rebuilt. This scripture was not be taken as those who change the Sabbath from a Saturday to a Sunday, as the bible shows a different way in which the Sabbath is now observed in the new covenant.

Also the Apostles meet on Sundays as well as the bible clearly shows, and by doing a history lesson one will find out they used Saturday's to bring in new converts, and used Sunday to worship on.......

This was not a new thing done by Constantine who allowed his soldiers to keep Sunday as a worship day for God, instead of forcing them and putting a stumbling block on them to change to Saturday.

History often repeats itself. And God's prophecies sometimes have duel meanings. If you study the history of Israel, you'll begin to realize that the antichrist has actually already come.....twice.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. -Ecclesiastes 1:9

By the way, Constantine didn't just "allow" people to worship on Sunday. He murdered anyone who worshipped on saturday. He called them "Judaizers" and enemies of the state. So did Antiochus, the antichrist who came before him. It's a really interesting study.

 

[sparkman]

History often repeats itself. And God's prophecies sometimes have duel meanings. If you study the history of Israel, you'll begin to realize that the antichrist has actually already come.....twice.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. -Ecclesiastes 1:9

By the way, Constantine didn't just "allow" people to worship on Sunday. He murdered anyone who worshipped on saturday. He called them "Judaizers" and enemies of the state. So did Antiochus, the antichrist who came before him. It's a really interesting study.

I challenge you to provide proof from sound, historical sources (not Sabbathkeeping sources) that prove these assertions:

1. Constantine FORCED Sunday observance without allowing Sabbathkeepers to observe Sabbath.
2. Murders occurred in violation of this edict of 321.

It's fairy tales that Sabbathkeepers repeat to themselves until they think they are true.

Find SOUND historians who record these murders which occurred. They would need to occur on a massive scale.

Again, I recommend the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff to prove Scripturally that ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant, including physical circumcision. the Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing apply to Christians.

 

[Assayah]

I challenge you to provide proof from sound, historical sources (not Sabbathkeeping sources) that prove these assertions:

1. Constantine FORCED Sunday observance without allowing Sabbathkeepers to observe Sabbath.
2. Murders occurred in violation of this edict of 321.

It's a widely known fact that Constantine made christianity the official religion of the Roman empire. But not Christianity as definied by the Bible, but by the Roman Catholic Church. He basically hijacked christianity and redefined it.

Now, the following decree was made by the council of Laodecia in A.D. 363:

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

^ If you want proof that this decree was made, just copy and paste it into google search. You'll see dozens of sources come up.

Anyway, if you were declared to be anathema from christ, you were arrested and tortured until you recanted. And if you didn't recant, the torture would continue until you were dead.

 

[prove-all]

Again, I recommend the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff to prove Scripturally that ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant, including physical circumcision. the Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing apply to Christians.

mabe i will read this book, if they follow the bible.

but i bet you goofed and recomended the book,

but said these things apply to christians instead of not apply lol.

why read a mans book when you have direct words from God

 

[flob]

ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant, including physical circumcision. the Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing apply to Christians.

! Tell me you don't mean this...........'Apply' as in keep laws?

 

[sparkman]

It's a widely known fact that Constantine made christianity the official religion of the Roman empire. But not Christianity as definied by the Bible, but by the Roman Catholic Church. He basically hijacked christianity and redefined it.

Now, the following decree was made by the council of Laodecia in A.D. 363:

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

^ If you want proof that this decree was made, just copy and paste it into google search. You'll see dozens of sources come up.

Anyway, if you were declared to be anathema from christ, you were arrested and tortured until you recanted. And if you didn't recant, the torture would continue until you were dead.

Constantine did not ban Sabbathkeepers from observing the Sabbath. He merely required Sunday observance, and even then those with agricultural activities could work on Sunday if needed. This is contrary to what Sabbathkeepers claim in this regard. It can be researched and proven wrong.

Show proof that massive martyrdoms occurred due to the Council of Laodicea in regards to this Sabbathkeeping command.

By the way, the Roman Catholic church did not exist as we know it until at least 450 AD and probably more like 550 AD. They made boastful claims as to their superiority but did not exist as we know it until then. There were not executions happening in regards to this council. If there were, then those people died for no reason because the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic laws aren't in effect for Christians anyways.

Christians had already transitioned their main day of worship from Saturday to Sunday after they were persecuted by the Jews about 90 AD relating to the Eighteen Benedictions anyways. Before that, they were meeting with Jews in the Synagogues and hearing the Scriptures read and then meeting on their own on Sunday to discuss them from a Christian standpoint. They simply switched to meeting on Saturday and Sunday to meeting on Sunday alone.

This is part of the whole Sabbathkeeping propaganda....a distorted view of history.

 

[Assayah]

mabe i will read this book, if they follow the bible.

but i bet you goofed and recomended the book,

but said these things apply to christians instead of not apply lol.

why read a mans book when you have direct words from God

Because there is more than one Jesus. There's the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. And there's the world's Jesus. The world's Jesus is whoever you want him to be.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.-2 Corinthians 11:4

The vast majority of christians nowadays are worshipping the wrong Jesus.

 

[sparkman]

! Tell me you don't mean this...........'Apply' as in keep laws?

I'm not sure if I miscommunicated.

Ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant, including physical circumcision, the Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing do not apply to Christians. In other words, Christians do not need to observe those things.

The Old Covenant also had laws that are moral absolutes that apply to Christians. These moral absolutes don't apply because they are part of the Old Covenant, but they apply because they are moral absolutes.

In addition, the Old Covenant gave specific applications to the children of Israel which have underlying spiritual or moral principles. Christians with the Holy Spirit can see the underlying spiritual or moral principles and apply them, without following the specific application. For example, there is a law that requires a man to marry his deceased brothers' wife. The specific application doesn't apply to a Christian, but the concept of providing for your deceased brothers' spouse if needed definitely would apply.

 

[Assayah]

The true Jesus Christ of the Bible is in total agreement with his father, and rests on the true sabbath, just as He commands.

The world's Jesus abolished God's law, and made up new commandments. One of those new commandments is to worship on sunday, isntead of the sabbath.

 

[prove-all]

In 363, Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea prohibited observance of the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday),
and encouraged Christians to work on the Saturday and rest on the false Lord's Day (Sunday).


The fact that the canon had to be issued at all is an indication that adoption of Constantine's decree of 321 was still not universal, not even among Christians. It also indicates that Jews were observing the Sabbath on the Saturday.

 

[sparkman]

mabe i will read this book, if they follow the bible.

but i bet you goofed and recomended the book,

but said these things apply to christians instead of not apply lol.

why read a mans book when you have direct words from God

It's funny that a disciple of Herbert Armstrong would ridicule someone else's book who exposes false teachings of Sabbathkeepers.

I know you have read his literature in detail to derive your theology. I did the same thing. While he said, don't believe me, believe your Bible, what he meant was read your bible alongside his books, as he had the secret decoder ring to understand what Scripture taught.

Before you claim others are simply getting their doctrine from man, you need to acknowledge that you got your theology from a man, Herbert Armstrong, who conveyed unorthodox theology and is well recognized as a cult leader.

By the way, the man who is criticizing this book believes in Armstrongism, which teaches that man must be perfected in order to become a God being in the resurrection. Pure blasphemy.

 

[sparkman]

Show evidence that Christians were being martyred due to the Council of Laodicea. There would be a record of mass martyrdoms if this was true.

In 363, Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea prohibited observance of the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday),
and encouraged Christians to work on the Saturday and rest on the false Lord's Day (Sunday).


The fact that the canon had to be issued at all is an indication that adoption of Constantine's decree of 321 was still not universal, not even among Christians. It also indicates that Jews were observing the Sabbath on the Saturday.

 

[sparkman]

The true Jesus Christ of the Bible is in total agreement with his father, and rests on the true sabbath, just as He commands.

The world's Jesus abolished God's law, and made up new commandments. One of those new commandments is to worship on sunday, isntead of the sabbath.

If you want to read about those who were teaching a false gospel, read Galatians. It is talking about Judaizers like you guys. Paul called it a "false gospel".

Judaizers would follow him around like dogs trying to teach Gentile Christians to observe the Old Covenant.

Galatians is the antidote for Judaizers and those that might be influenced by them.

 

[prove-all]

It's funny that a disciple of Herbert Armstrong would ridicule someone else's book who exposes false teachings of Sabbathkeepers.

.

first I was l.o.l at youre mistake,

"saying these things apply to christians" instead of [not] apply to christians.


so where did I ridicule his book ? I did not indorce it true, i prefere the bible.

is it not good to read and stick to the bible as the only and every word from God,

that says to become like a child with a blank slate and open mind.



another time you smear and slander me without proff and lie

 

[Assayah]

Hey Sparkman. I'm not sure if you realize this, but a covenant and a law are 2 different things.....

A new covenant does not suggest that there is a new law.

 

[sparkman]

Hey Sparkman. I'm not sure if you realize this, but a covenant and a law are 2 different things.....

A new covenant does not suggest that there is a new law.

That's a clever argument, but it doesn't work if you think that it proves Sabbath and festival observance.

Read Colossians 2:16-17. It obviously identifies Sabbath and Holy Days as shadows that the Gentile Colossians didn't need to observe.

While you are at it, compare these Scriptures to Hebrews 10:1-2 which uses the same language of shadows to apply to the animal sacrifices.

I realize that some groups try to apply a different context to Colossians 2:16-17 but they are taking those verses out of the context of the whole chapter, as well as denying the link to "shadows" of animal sacrifices to the "shadows' of the Sabbath and holy days.

The context of the whole chapter is how we are complete in Christ, and don't need to pursue a higher level of worship through pursuing any other approach of him, regardless if it is Judaizing or worship of angels or "philosophy" or whatever.

 

[prove-all]

. Pure blasphemy.

strong language for not liking youre recommended book

 

[KennethC]

History often repeats itself. And God's prophecies sometimes have duel meanings. If you study the history of Israel, you'll begin to realize that the antichrist has actually already come.....twice.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. -Ecclesiastes 1:9

By the way, Constantine didn't just "allow" people to worship on Sunday. He murdered anyone who worshipped on saturday. He called them "Judaizers" and enemies of the state. So did Antiochus, the antichrist who came before him. It's a really interesting study.

Show me proof on that, that Constantine murdered people who worshiped on Saturday???

I think you have been told a false history about Constantine because he believed in a Saturday Sabbath, and like I showed from a history lesson did not make his soldiers that converted to Christianity change their worship day of Sunday to Saturday because he felt it would cause them to stumble in the faith. Constantine killed people but it had nothing to do with the fact of them worshiping on Saturday, as that is a false history teaching......

Second the spirit of the antichrist has been in the world since the days of the original Apostles, but the main last days end time figure known as the antichrist that is also given the names man of sin, prince of this world, and beast has not come yet. When he does come there will be a period of time (GT) that no other time in the world past or future will be worse then those 3 1/2 years. It will be so bad that Jesus Himself will come back to stop it and issue out God's wrath on him and those who follow him.......

 

[sparkman]

By the way, I know that Hebrew Roots people try to assert that the New Covenant isn't really a New Covenant but a "Renewed Covenant".

This is an unbiblical assertion. We know ceremonial and ritualistic elements no longer apply, and those are the topics of dispute with "Torah observers". No one disputes that moral absolutes apply to Christians.

 

[sparkman]

strong language for not liking youre recommended book

Did you read the book? I don't think you'd be open minded enough to do that.

It would refute your Sabbathkeeping beliefs utterly if you read it along with the Bible and some critical reasoning skills.