The unity of the faith...

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KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
794
306
63
#1
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,121
1,557
113
#2
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
I felt that I was to look at this in the complete Jewish bible and am glad I did.

Furthermore, he gave some people as emissaries, some as prophets, some as proclaimers of the Good News, and some as shepherds and teachers

. 12 Their task is to equip God’s people for the work of service that builds the body of the Messiah,

13 until we all arrive at the unity implied by trusting and knowing the Son of God, at full manhood, at the standard of maturity set by the Messiah’s perfection.

The we all would be His body.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,239
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
#3
And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?
All of your OP is exclusively referring to the body of Christ - the church of God > the Pentecostal Bible obedient scripture believing
church of the saints wherein these signs shall follow them that believe.
For in the first century there was only ONE church with one doctrine > Mark 16:15-20 and Acts 2:38
and where all the saints enjoyed the Bible evidence of praying in tongues.
The Spirit-filled church that is blessed with all nine gifts of the Holy Spirit for the edification and admonishment of the saints.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,536
3,362
113
#4
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
When we come to believe Jesus, Yeshua, we are new members of His Body. He is the Head. Just as we are living stones of the Temple, and He is the Chidf andthe Corner Stone rejected of men and taken up to His throne, until He returns we cannot be perfect,. Yet we are being perfected every moment by that Work begun in eaach of us by our blessed Maker.

We will not attain perfection until He has come back to put the "Stones " together. Then we will be just as He, though we will not be Yeshua, we will be jusst like He is, and that is an awesome future for us to await. God bless all the children, boys and girls of the family, amen.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,990
557
113
#5
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
Ephesians is about the mystery that was revealed to Paul, where Gentiles are equally accepted in the eyes of God. That was a huge deal during his time.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,121
1,557
113
#6
Wasn’t the question (have we considered what the unity of the faith means)?

I can’t give an answer because I always thought it meant that at some point we would all think the same. Well that was disappointing after coming to forums.

Right now I see unity in the blood sacrifice and that’s about it.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,121
1,557
113
#7
Always be humble, gentle and patient, bearing with one another in love, 3 and making every effort to preserve the unity the Spirit gives through the binding power of shalom.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,469
462
83
#8
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
Ephesians chapter 4 conveys that there is only one faith; meaning one correct doctrine that all should pursue to be in unity. This very truth is witnessed in Matthew 7:14 and 7:21-23 as well:

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


“ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Disunity runs rampant as seen in the many denominations throughout the World. Sadly, many are drawn to denominations whose beliefs most closely conform to one’s personal experience. As seen in Matthew 7:21 above, everyone is required to be obedient to the will of God in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven. God's will can only be found through study and total acceptance of what is found in His Word. Various denominations hold some things relevant and refuse to accept others, and many times elevate tradition above the Word of God.

Paul’s comment to the Ephesian believers indicates that there would be those who would not be in unity concerning established Godly principles. This lack of understanding would hamper a believer’s growth. God knew this dilemma would arise, therefore He equipped individuals and placed them in various ministry offices through which others are given insight and drawn to God’s truth. (Eph 4:5-16) We are told to speak the truth in love.

Only through the steps of faith that God ordained as necessary can one be born again. The biblical record indicates these steps as; belief, repentance, water baptism in Jesus’ name, and receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost. After obedience to the commands an individual has been spiritually reborn.

During the rebirth process one’s spiritual “eyes” are opened. The Word indicates that unless a man is reborn he cannot “SEE” the kingdom of God. (John 3:3) It goes on to make another point. Unless a man is born of both water and Spirit he cannot ENTER into the kingdom. (John 3:5) One act of obedience causes a person to “see” principles of the kingdom of God. After complying with everything God said to do the person will be able to ENTER into God's kingdom when their time on earth has ended.

Once a person steps out on faith and is obedient to the Word their Spiritual eyes open and they are then led by the Spirit of God on a journey into all truth. They see truth through spiritual eyes and conform to it which sets them free.

Have they arrived? No.

The spiritual rebirth and salvation are not the same. After the spiritual rebirth the new creation in Jesus Christ is required to continue their journey learning to live a life acceptable to God. And, confessing Jesus to others until His return is essential to one’s salvation.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,469
462
83
#9
How we will know when it is reached? On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity?
Upon acceptance and obedience to the required components of the one true faith a person is confident in their standing with God through His indwelling Spirit. Romans 8:9-16 speaks of the need for the infilling of the Holy Spirit and how that effects the believer:

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Rom 8:9-11

A Note for Trinitarians: Paul mentions the Holy Spirit is both the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ. He goes on to say "if Christ be in you the body is dead... but the Spirit is life..."
He then says if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus...dwell in you...

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deut 6:4-5
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,169
3,728
113
#10
Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)
It would almost seem from what is stated in Eph 4:13 that Paul is speaking about the future perfection of the saints. It is quite evident that this condition does not exist in Christendom.

But coming back to the meaning of the unity of the faith, we are not left to wonder at what it means (Eph 4:5-6). This is what must unite all Christians:

Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one Body,
[the Body of Christ]
and one Spirit, [the Holy Spirit]
even as ye are called in one Hope of your calling; [the hope of eternal life]
One Lord, [the Lord Jesus Christ]
one Faith, [the total teachings of Bible Christianity]
one Baptism, [the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which precedes water baptism]
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 

Pisteuo

Active member
Oct 22, 2018
984
141
43
#11
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
Could you please post the first 12 verses of that chapter?
For better context?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,388
115
63
#12
Key things

..knowledge
..a measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ

..having reached. No longer tossed to and fro by every word of doctrine


.. at a future time starting from the time of the ephesian church

If it was the second coming of Christ..then there would be no need for anything afterward. So this doesn't really fit. There would be no 'hence forth '

The completed bible canon does fit because it is

1 a point of unity of the faith
2 it is knowledge
3 it is a 'measure '
4 it does stop 'every wind of doctrine' allowing the Christian to be mature
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,121
1,557
113
#13
It’s the unity of the Spirit. One with and in God through Jesus Christ which is one faith.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,100
17,427
113
#14
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
Many read too much universalism into the scriptures and then go beyond the context. What I mean is this.....

This was written to the church located at Ephesus....it is a church letter and directed at the body.....yes, there are many truths individually applied to believers, but we cannot alleviate the over all direction of these truths.....each and every body of believers (church(s)) are to be unified in THE FAITH <--THE system of teaching found within the bible...that is the overall jist of what is being said......!
 

jacob_g

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
296
134
43
#15
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
When I read your question the first thing I thought of was the tower of Babel.... They were all one like minded and could do anything they set their minds to achieve.... Imagine if all christians were oneminded in Messiah; I do not think He would come down and split us apart (like He did then) but I think the world, or close to it, could be saved and He would come back!!!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,121
1,557
113
#16
Unity in the Body of Christ


Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,


Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;


Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;


Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


The one and only door to the Father. Through His Son.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,014
594
113
#17
Unity in the Body of Christ
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

The one and only door to the Father. Through His Son.
We know what God wants, we quote scripture. We are to not be gentile and Jew but one family, we are to be united. We are to accept each other, warts and all. We are to be one family and I can't see but what a family should be united in goals and principles but we are not. How can we heal ourselves?

When I retired and had time to really study I decided that I should not be ignorant about the old testament. I had often tried to read it but it seemed to be written in a different language, nothing added up. David was dealing with enemies in Psalms, the flood was a mass killing, marriage was not honored by the most beloved of God, I couldn't make sense of it as being a guidepost in my life. Even commentaries didn't help. I had given myself to the Lord through Christ and I couldn't understand His words, I had to fix that. I needed someone who could explain it to me, and choosing that person had to be done carefully, it must be someone as interested in only facts about God, no religious stuff of imagination and fancy. In my search for this person I discovered that the dead sea scrolls had unearthed history that was throwing new light on scripture. Thousands of years had gone by and the people used to explain God's principles often had different attitudes and understanding of life and the words they used. I was like it would be if we read of Shakespeare thinking they had computers and cars like we do. Shakespeare is only 500 years old, very recent in comparison. I found a man who had put in eight full time years studying scripture in far east schools, what the dead seas scrolls said about those people and history, Those scrolls have had a huge influence on ancient history knowledge, understanding old languages, the authenticity of scripture, and if you will check your footnotes in new bibles, even changed translations. I also studied ancient Hebrew history, being sure my text books were up to date.

When I understood the old testament, it changed my understanding of God. The man who led my studies always worked with the way the new testament referred to what I was learning in the old, so what I was learning in the OT had to have new testament study with it. I changed. My minister wouldn't work with me, he threw up his hands and then one day he stopped me in the hall and told me it seemed I was right!! When I came to the law of Moses I rebelled and devoted over three months to that one principle checking what I was learning for truth. I cried over that, for changing years of training is that hard.

When I say I began studying scripture, it wasn't a so so study. I was retired and living alone, I took it on as taking on a full time job.

The only thing that can unite us is truth. The Holy Spirit within us must have truth to be effective, it cannot work on what is not true.

I think those dead sea scrolls were hidden by the Lord, and they came to light when they were needed. It began in the 1940's. Many things began happening about then. Hitler brought the holocaust, bible prophecy has finally started to come about, and a remnant of God's people are beginning to accept the entire scripture, not just the new testament.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
794
306
63
#18
Ephesians chapter 4 conveys that there is only one faith; meaning one correct doctrine that all should pursue to be in unity. This very truth is witnessed in Matthew 7:14 and 7:21-23 as well:

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


“ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Disunity runs rampant as seen in the many denominations throughout the World. Sadly, many are drawn to denominations whose beliefs most closely conform to one’s personal experience. As seen in Matthew 7:21 above, everyone is required to be obedient to the will of God in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven. God's will can only be found through study and total acceptance of what is found in His Word. Various denominations hold some things relevant and refuse to accept others, and many times elevate tradition above the Word of God.

Paul’s comment to the Ephesian believers indicates that there would be those who would not be in unity concerning established Godly principles. This lack of understanding would hamper a believer’s growth. God knew this dilemma would arise, therefore He equipped individuals and placed them in various ministry offices through which others are given insight and drawn to God’s truth. (Eph 4:5-16) We are told to speak the truth in love.

Only through the steps of faith that God ordained as necessary can one be born again. The biblical record indicates these steps as; belief, repentance, water baptism in Jesus’ name, and receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost. After obedience to the commands an individual has been spiritually reborn.

During the rebirth process one’s spiritual “eyes” are opened. The Word indicates that unless a man is reborn he cannot “SEE” the kingdom of God. (John 3:3) It goes on to make another point. Unless a man is born of both water and Spirit he cannot ENTER into the kingdom. (John 3:5) One act of obedience causes a person to “see” principles of the kingdom of God. After complying with everything God said to do the person will be able to ENTER into God's kingdom when their time on earth has ended.

Once a person steps out on faith and is obedient to the Word their Spiritual eyes open and they are then led by the Spirit of God on a journey into all truth. They see truth through spiritual eyes and conform to it which sets them free.

Have they arrived? No.

The spiritual rebirth and salvation are not the same. After the spiritual rebirth the new creation in Jesus Christ is required to continue their journey learning to live a life acceptable to God. And, confessing Jesus to others until His return is essential to one’s salvation.
This might sound like a critique, but it's just a clarification of the compliment I'm giving:

For as much as you wrote, there is very little with which I might find fault. I especially like the way you break down the steps so each piece can be discussed.

The two things that sparked my alertness were:
1. the idea of a person "complying with EVERYTHING God said to do" before being able to enter God's kingdom. That one simply reminded me of several of the things God told me to do, which I'd failed to do. (although I think you were mainly talking about salvational requirements rather that 100% obedience to every command, all the time). I also believe that we enter the kingdom a little further each time we comply with a piece of his commandments. (Kind of like there is a financial part of God's kingdom that we can't/won't enter until we begin tithing).

2. The statement that "confessing Jesus to others until his return is essential to one's salvation": That one just has me curious because of the idea that if confessing to others is required, exactly how MUCH is required, and how would we know if we're doing enough or not enough.

But like I said, for as much as you wrote, that is surprisingly little for me to question.

I really liked your post. :)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
2,263
1,367
113
Texas
#19
Some questions for your consideration....

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) says "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Have you considered what "the unity of the faith" actually IS? (It is a reflective question.)

The verses prior to it tell us things God has given us to help us get to this state, but do you know what it will look like? or How we will know when it is reached?

On the other hand, do you think we've already reached it? If so, when, and what made you think we've all come into this unity? What were the markers that let you know "we" had arrived?

And who is this "we all" that is mentioned as needing to be in this unity?


Awaiting your replies with love in Jesus,
Kelby
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Ephesians 4:11‭-‬12 NASB

These versus proceed the ones that you gave and they go together. Christ gave us the former until the latter.
The former being necessary for today until the completion of the ministry. Until we have no use for that anymore which will be in heaven with Christ.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,469
462
83
#20
This might sound like a critique, but it's just a clarification of the compliment I'm giving:

For as much as you wrote, there is very little with which I might find fault. I especially like the way you break down the steps so each piece can be discussed.

The two things that sparked my alertness were:
1. the idea of a person "complying with EVERYTHING God said to do" before being able to enter God's kingdom. That one simply reminded me of several of the things God told me to do, which I'd failed to do. (although I think you were mainly talking about salvational requirements rather that 100% obedience to every command, all the time). I also believe that we enter the kingdom a little further each time we comply with a piece of his commandments. (Kind of like there is a financial part of God's kingdom that we can't/won't enter until we begin tithing).

2. The statement that "confessing Jesus to others until his return is essential to one's salvation": That one just has me curious because of the idea that if confessing to others is required, exactly how MUCH is required, and how would we know if we're doing enough or not enough.

But like I said, for as much as you wrote, that is surprisingly little for me to question.

I really liked your post. :)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I appreciate your "critique" very much. I enjoy getting feedback. If all we do is pat one another on the back there is no growth. We can all learn so much from one another. Your comments made me realize I need to take more care in clarifying what I mean.

Per your comments:
1. My comment you quoted, "complying with EVERYTHING God said to do" before being able to enter God's kingdom," was pertaining to salvation requirements. And as you, I too, believe we partake of more aspects of God's kingdom through continued obedience to His Word.

2. The point I intended to convey was every child of God's new mission in life should be to share/confess Jesus to others. (Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16)