The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[eternally-gratefull]

How did this thief overcome his sin?

Ephesians 4:28... Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

this is an excellent example of how we work the law of faith.

God says do not steel. Thats all great and stuff. But it is not going to stop a guy from steeling.. or cause them to not want to (unless they are trying to get something out of it, which would be sin because it is self motivated.)

how do we do it by faith?

1. We trust (faith) God to supply our needs
2. We trust God that says if we work, he will supply those needs.
3. We take the focus off self. (work is hard, Work is laborious and I hate it) and place our focus on God. (work is rewarding)
4. We place focus on others (who am I to take what God Gave them, Better that I should work, so I can help others in need. and allow God to use me)

you see. the law focuses on self, which is what it was intended to do. It is when we focus on others we learn to fulfill the things condemned by the law.

 

[just-me]

Your like the pharisee stuck on a few pet sins, And think because you have kept them you are righteous under the law. When like them you do the outer, but can't see the inner..(you can't even see some of the outer. which is well displayed in here)

Please understand that the Pharisees rewrote the original law from God, given to Moses, according to their own liking. If we reject the truth given to us through Moses, then we have no alternative but to do the same. Remember Jesus' actions and comments toward those Pharisees? No one is saying we want to be under the law. You are the only one advocating that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please understand that the Pharisees rewrote the original law from God, given to Moses, according to their own liking. If we reject the truth given to us through Moses, then we have no alternative but to do the same. Remember Jesus' actions and comments toward those Pharisees? Just sayin.

please understand the pharisees thought they were holy because they tithed, they did not murder, commit adultry and do all the other stuff. And jesus pointed out to them continually they were wrong.

yes they added to the law also. as do so many so called christians. but that does not matter if you think you are holy by the law of moses alone.. non of the rest matters.

I was not given anything through moses, israel was. Unless you plan on joining them for their quest to get their land back apart from god. the law can do you no good..

People who see the law and grow in christ realise how deep their sin is. They become like pau. see themselves as wretched men. The closer he Got to God, the more sinfull he realised he was. That is what the law can do for us. other than that, it can not show us how to live right. only faith in God can.

 

[just-me]

Oh I see. so you live in Isreal. and you are protected by God because you follow Gods law.

You must be special..

The NT never promises any of this, even if we are doing good. We still are never promised prosperity, never promised to be protected from our enemy.

what we are promised is persecuation, hatred, war, famine etc etc..

again, you do not know the law.

Paul said it kills. Your argument is with him..

It's still the Word of God endorsed by john832. Evidently you have forgotten that Jesus is the creator. I submit to you:
Colossians 1:15-16 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

How can one serve a God when they reject the things which He has given since the beginning?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's still the Word of God endorsed byjohn832. Evidently you have forgotten that Jesus is the creator. I submit to you:

It is still given to Isreal. Still only the things John quoted were only promised to them.

You still are ignoring the context of those passages..

Colossians 1:15-16 (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

How can one serve a God when they reject the things which He has given since the beginning?

Who is rejecting them? Abraham did not have them. nor did many of th egentiles who were saved before and after the law was given.

We are rejecting your legalistic view of how God deals with us. And focusing on the things abraham, and others knew..

Why do you want to focus on some law given to some nation who failed to maintain it. When you are no better then they are. Even king david could not do what God commanded.

 

[just-me]

People who see the law and grow in christ realise how deep their sin is. They become like pau. see themselves as wretched men. The closer he Got to God, the more sinfull he realised he was. That is what the law can do for us. other than that, it can not show us how to live right. only faith in God can.

Then we can see that the Mosaic Law is the tool in which we see our short-comings, right?
Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

After faith we judge ourselves
1 Corinthians 5:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1 Peter 4:17-19 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[just-me]

We are rejecting your legalistic view of how God deals with us. And focusing on the things abraham, and others knew..

Why do you want to focus on some law given to some nation who failed to maintain it. When you are no better then they are. Even king david could not do what God commanded.

David loved it though. There you go again claiming that I'm endorsing the legalistic aspects of the Mosaic law. The law is Spiritual, and I am certainly not by-passing that aspect, otherwise I wouldn't want to read this......
Romans 7:14 a(KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual:

 

[homwardbound]

This entire thread started with this somewhat confusing question. Maybe we ought to address it rather than display controversy.
Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Whether Jew or Gentile, faith is the justifier. If one keeps the law of the Old Testament, and has the faith King David had, (approved by God) it doesn’t mean He had a stumbling block in his life because he kept the Mosaic Law.

Interesting point and is why I am glad God is the Judge of all, for God knows the motive(s) of all and by that I am sure truth will be shown in due time, and it is by Faith in God trusting God to do through me what I could never do through self and that is love all equally as God does and shown by the cross of Christ

 

[homwardbound]

The whole purpose for this thread was to differentiate between works of the law that do not effect your salvation, vs. works of faith, which do.
Also, guilt does not keep one in sin, unless you found that in scripture, which I doubt. Your guilt was your conscience speaking, which is the law written in your heart, and helps lead one to repentance, not to continue in sin. It also tells you that you did sin, and you know it as sin. And no, we cannot uphold all the law in our life without the Spirit of Christ in us to cause us to both will and do of His good pleasure.

Faith in God's finished work over works of the law:


There was a person that died and was sent to hell. Upon realizing he was in Hell, He rejected this as to be so! He said he was not to be there in Hell. He did not belong. So he sought out the Devil inquiring why he was in Hell, and stating he did not belong. He asked Why am I here? I am sure I do not belong here.
The devil replies after looking over his list of names that are to be there, and replies, you are right, you are not to be here. You see that door over there, all you got to do is go through that door and you will be in heaven. But before you get to go through it, You need to accomplish a list of tasks first.
So the man sets out to accomplish these tasks given and completes them. He then goes back to the devil and says he has completed the given tasks, and is ready to now go through the door.
The Devil interupts and convinces the man he needs to accopmplish another list, then another one. and on and on. Finally after the man keeps coming back, to go through the door. He now finds new lists taped onto the door for him to do, then he could pass through.
Well this goes on for years and finally the man gives up trying so hard to go through the door and into heaven. Feeling it is useless he takes the latest note on the door and rips it up, then leans against the door in exhaustion, he has had it he is done.
To his amazament the door opens and never was locked, and finds himself in Heaven, realizing he could have just gone through the door the first day. The door was never locked, only his belief kept him from entering into. ( deceived into working for salvation)
I find this so common with man and his feeling of worth. We are loved and all anyone needs to do is just go through the door.

 

[homwardbound]

The whole purpose for this thread was to differentiate between works of the law that do not effect your salvation, vs. works of faith, which do.
Also, guilt does not keep one in sin, unless you found that in scripture, which I doubt. Your guilt was your conscience speaking, which is the law written in your heart, and helps lead one to repentance, not to continue in sin. It also tells you that you did sin, and you know it as sin. And no, we cannot uphold all the law in our life without the Spirit of Christ in us to cause us to both will and do of His good pleasure.

[h=3]Galatians 6:8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

 

[just-me]

It is still given to Isreal. Still only the things John quoted were only promised to them.

Now you are saying that there is a difference between the Jew and the Gentile.
Acts 15:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Romans 10:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then we can see that the Mosaic Law is the tool in which we see our short-comings, right?

Which does what? Shows our need for Christ and his continues mercy right?

So if we continually need mercy. what gives us the right to judge others that need mercy as bad as we do?

Why do we focus on just a few sins like so many do. and judge others who comit those sins. When we need just as much mercy as they do. And if we realised this, we are empowered to help them find what we have.. Not judgment, But mercy and forgiveness.

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

After faith we judge ourselves
1 Corinthians 5:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1 Peter 4:17-19 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

so. why then are we judging others?Should we not look inside, and see and focus on our own sin, and our own growth, and stop trying to place everyone else under the law. or condemn those who do not deel with God this way as licentious. which is not true??

 

[homwardbound]

Just a question concerning the law, not the Mosaic law but the law of our founding fathers in America. Do you think that our country would be better off if we would have kept that law, that was patterned after the Bible law in many respects. I'm not saying that this would make believers in Christ Jesus, just asking about enforcing the law and not legislating corruption like we have been doing for the last few decades. You may think that this question doesn't apply to the subject at hand, but I'm trying to lay a foundation to clarify an answer to the original question of this thread.

The law all law is still in place for the law breaker that needs Christ for salvation period, those that know Christ do not break the two laws of love, for once they have received these laws by first agreeing to die to themselves with Christ at the cross come alive to God freed from law and have no need for it anymore, because the law through is held up by Christ
Romans 3:31 we don't make void the law rather we uphold it, agree with it as Holy, yet know because of sinful flesh that is weak, whenever one tries to obey, we fall short of it and guilt sets in, and if we continue to try, we see our need for the Savior, since we by flesh can't perform as Christ did to present through the death of Christ to God as Holy for new life
Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now you are saying that there is a difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

There is. as far as life on this earth goes.

The law was given to Isreal as a condition for them being in there land.

eternal life was NEVER a isreal vs gentile thing. it has been the same from before the law until after the law. Isreal got it wrong and thought it did have a thing to do with their eternity. Your making the same mistake they did..

Acts 15:9 (KJV)
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Romans 10:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Now your talking eternal things.. which is different. the law was never given to isreal to show them how to get to heaven.. Thats why so many of them failed. they thought it did. this was their error. and the error of so many in the church today!

 

[just-me]

Time to go back to post 262. My comments, address how this country was founded and comparing it to what it is today, and coming to a conclusion as to why. I was explaining what is in our faces. saying that the works of the law of righteousness, and works by faith to justification are not contrary one to another, and how I have determined that.

 

[Michael50]

Interesting point and is why I am glad God is the Judge of all, for God knows the motive(s) of all and by that I am sure truth will be shown in due time, and it is by Faith in God trusting God to do through me what I could never do through self and that is love all equally as God does and shown by the cross of Christ

You made an interesting point when you suggested that we "love all equally".

I have a bit of a problem with that phrase. We are humans. We are biased. We can't understand like God does, because we do not have His Wisdom and Understanding. We can comprehend somthing that has an "end". But our finite minds cannot Comprehend somthing that has no beginning. I'm speaking of God.


I have children. I love them all, "equally". But,, when I see my children standing among their school peers, my affections are for my children! Although I care very much, and even love other children, my children are far more dear to me than sombody elses. I am biased. My love is biased.

Let me be blunt. I love honesty and I love the truth, even when I don't like what I'm hearing.

If 2 kids needed saving and I could only save one. I'm saving my kid. Then, I will attempt to save the other kid as well, even at the cost of my own life. But make no mistake, my love is biased, I'm saving my kid first! And that's just the cold hard Truth!

 

[just-me]

There is. as far as life on this earth goes.

The law was given to Isreal as a condition for them being in there land.

eternal life was NEVER a isreal vs gentile thing. it has been the same from before the law until after the law. Isreal got it wrong and thought it did have a thing to do with their eternity. Your making the same mistake they did..



Now your talking eternal things.. which is different. the law was never given to isreal to show them how to get to heaven.. Thats why so many of them failed. they thought it did. this was their error. and the error of so many in the church today!

We are not of this world, but we are still here, God's word is eternal, so if we are His kingdom and still here we really should be living what is eternal truth right here, and right now. Amen?

 

[homwardbound]

I think the American form of Gov't is a mix of secular and biblical ideas.

The three branches of the federal gov't (judicial, legislative, executive) are described in Isaiah:

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isaiah 33:22
​

The original bases on the freedom that was sought from England got based further on prosperity, cloaked as equality.
If it were based on equality, rather than prosperity freedom, we would have had equality to this day as they did in the days of Acts where they burned all the evil junk and shared with each other giving to the others as they needed, making each equal, yet we do have a great country at the same time. Too Bad it was not set up totally on equality , then there would not be the problems that there are today, as in prosperity, one acting better than the other.
Just what I see

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Time to go back to post 262. My comments, address how this country was founded and comparing it to what it is today, and coming to a conclusion as to why. I was explaining what is in our faces. saying that the works of the law of righteousness, and works by faith to justification are not contrary one to another, and how I have determined that.

answered and thoroughly refuted here

1. American (and world) moral values have declined, Not because of lack of adherance to some law. But because of self serving interests.

2. 100 years ago and more. people were more apt to help and think of others than self. today it is all about self.

3. Trying to go back to law is NOT going to help. The law condemns and it judges.. You go judging people and you will not find renewal and repentance you will find a stiff hand in your face saying how dare you judge me.

what we need to do is get away from self. and get to other thinking. This is the example Jesus showed. he did not go around shoving the law in sinners faces, he did not have to, they already knew they were sinners. you could tell by their reaction. It was the pharisees job to judge, and because of it, they will be judged.

it is no different today. You do not need to tell people they are sinners, THEY ALREADY KNOW. show them love and forgiveness, as Jesus did. and how the things of this world do not make us happy, even though society will tell you different, prove society wrong, people will come in groves. Everyone wants to find what is missing, Christ is the ONLY one who can satisfy our inner selves.. this is what people need ot hear. Not thou shalt not this or that!

Considering you had nothing to say to counter what I wrote. I (and all of us0 can only assume you have no counterpoint.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are not of this world, but we are still here, God's word is eternal, so if we are His kingdom and still here we really should be living what is eternal truth right here, and right now. Amen?

yes we should.

As adam did. Noah did. Abraham did.. As all men have BEFORE THE LAW WAS GIVEN.

through th elaw of faith. Not the law given to a nation as a covenant between God and them.

The old is passed away, all things have become new. But you do not want to hear this. you want to go back to the old way. Well it did not help Israel. and it will not help you.