There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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T

tucksma

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#861
#861
I can explain Elohim being called Yahweh in a way that works with my faith, but it is interesting that it says a man is called Yahweh. I can not (at this time) explain man being called Yahweh. My question though is how would you explain that? Like according to your faith (I'm assuming) Jesus wasn't a man until his birth, so explain man being called God, if Jesus at this time isn't man? Again just curious, I don't have a stand on this yet because I really don't know and will have to do study of my own as well as ask others their opinion to see what makes sense to me of this.
 
Bowman

Bowman

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Nov 19, 2012
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#862
Re: Study up...

tucksma said:
I wouldn't say you can say he wrestled with "the son" because it doesn't say that, but you did bring up some really good points. I'll have to go and look into it myself some and I'll get back to you.
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God The Son was not known as God The Son until He was begotten of a woman.

However, that does not mean that The Son did not appear in the flesh in the OT.

You can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:

· The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
· Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
· Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
· Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
· Man (Gen 32.24)
 
Bowman

Bowman

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tucksma said:
I can explain Elohim being called Yahweh in a way that works with my faith, but it is interesting that it says a man is called Yahweh. I can not (at this time) explain man being called Yahweh. My question though is how would you explain that? Like according to your faith (I'm assuming) Jesus wasn't a man until his birth, so explain man being called God, if Jesus at this time isn't man? Again just curious, I don't have a stand on this yet because I really don't know and will have to do study of my own as well as ask others their opinion to see what makes sense to me of this.
Click to expand...

We know that the second person of the Trinity was in the world from the beginning - and He came to His own, but the majority did not know Him, as thus…

He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him. (John 1.10 – 18)


Scripture clearly informs the reader that the Word occupied flesh when He was in the world and that He was beheld as The Glory of God.

That the second person of the Trinity occupied flesh before being born of a woman and being referred to as God The Son, is made crystal clear by John’s proclamation that ‘He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me’. This is a full admission that The Son was manifest both before John’s time and after John’s time.

These early manifestations of The Son, The God-man, consisted of Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc, etc…
 
T

tucksma

Guest
#864
#864
Bowman said:
We know that the second person of the Trinity was in the world from the beginning - and He came to His own, but the majority did not know Him, as thus…

He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him. (John 1.10 – 18)


Scripture clearly informs the reader that the Word occupied flesh when He was in the world and that He was beheld as The Glory of God.

That the second person of the Trinity occupied flesh before being born of a woman and being referred to as God The Son, is made crystal clear by John’s proclamation that ‘He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me’. This is a full admission that The Son was manifest both before John’s time and after John’s time.

These early manifestations of The Son, The God-man, consisted of Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc, etc…
Click to expand...

Well see I also disagree on the concept that Jesus preexisted. At first I did think it was true but the verses I looked up that "showed" it were very translator's choice of wording that makes it sound like that. This is also a problem I have with the trinity.

The explanation I got, which does make sense to me but I don't know if its true or not because I haven't really looked into it myself (this specific section) is that Jacob starts off calling him man because HE thinks it is a man. There is no reason in the bible to think that angels look any different than us, just that they have different nature. Once it is revealed that it is not a man to Jacob he calls in Elohim, or mighty ones. This refers to angels. Angels can carry God's name by a thing that my faith calls God manifestation. It's the idea that a messenger of God or something doing God's will perfectly (because Idk if we will be angels after death, I just know we will be like the angels) can be called God. It happens when Moses get's the law on the Mountain, as well as in the burning bush. These angels are called Elohim, and also Yahweh not in the sense that they are God but that they carry his name because they are doing his will.
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#865
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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#865
Re: Study up...

tucksma said:
I wouldn't say you can say he wrestled with "the son" because it doesn't say that, but you did bring up some really good points. I'll have to go and look into it myself some and I'll get back to you.
Click to expand...

Which part of the triune GOD appears in human form, and eventually does Create for Himself a body in the womb of Mary that HE can dwell in? AND remember, Mal. 3:6 teaches us that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

The question is, "WHY do you people continue to DENY THAT GOD THE SON CAME AS A MAN?"

2 John 1:7 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
 
Bowman

Bowman

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Nov 19, 2012
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tucksma said:
Well see I also disagree on the concept that Jesus preexisted. At first I did think it was true but the verses I looked up that "showed" it were very translator's choice of wording that makes it sound like that. This is also a problem I have with the trinity.

The explanation I got, which does make sense to me but I don't know if its true or not because I haven't really looked into it myself (this specific section) is that Jacob starts off calling him man because HE thinks it is a man. There is no reason in the bible to think that angels look any different than us, just that they have different nature. Once it is revealed that it is not a man to Jacob he calls in Elohim, or mighty ones. This refers to angels. Angels can carry God's name by a thing that my faith calls God manifestation. It's the idea that a messenger of God or something doing God's will perfectly (because Idk if we will be angels after death, I just know we will be like the angels) can be called God. It happens when Moses get's the law on the Mountain, as well as in the burning bush. These angels are called Elohim, and also Yahweh not in the sense that they are God but that they carry his name because they are doing his will.
Click to expand...

No angel is ever called Yahweh unless He IS Yahweh.

You are referring to Malek Yahweh which is The Son in the OT.



Who is Jesus quoting in Mark 12.26?

Mark 12:26,

But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?



He is quoting Himself, God the Son, as thus…



Exodus 3.1 - 6

And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.


These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.

Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.

Who occupied the burning bush?

• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)







That Malek Yahweh is actually Yahweh, and that Moses spoke to Malek Yahweh, is proven in these verses, as thus…



Deut 4.15 - 19

Therefore you shall carefully watch over your souls, for you have not seen any likeness in the day Yahweh spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire, that you not deal corruptly, and make for yourselves a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female, the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens; the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth; and that you not lift up your eyes towards the heavens and shall see the sun, and the heavens, and you be drawn away and worship them, and serve them; which Yahweh Elohim has allotted to all the peoples under all the heavens.





It really should not come as any surprise that Moses saw and spoke to The Son, as the NT also records that Abraham did likewise…


John 8.56 – 58

Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
 
K

krow

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#867
#867
Jesus as the Messiah has equality with God and He had control over the elements, life and death, could do only the works God can do, the lame walked, the blind saw, the deaf heard, the dead were raised to life and He brought life to the souls of those who believed in His name. We know by Genesis God SPOKE the world into existence. Jesus is the Word that He spoke. This is why He told the Jews. "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM". No angel will allow a human to worship it as that would be a sin egregious enough to be cast from God's presence and damned, and no mere angel would claim God's name. Remember when Gabriel appeared to Mary for example? He claimed his own name and merely told that he stood in the presence of God and had instructions for Mary. Pre-incarnate Christ giving a message for the father can be called an angel in mission but He can still claim God's name.
 
VCO

VCO

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Gjolll said:
Both are clutching at straws. Matt 28;20 may well be a later interpolation (google it) and the natural meaning of Gen 1;26 is God in his council of angels that is elsewhere alluded to in the Old Testament. The Son and the Spirit are manifestations of God, not proof that God is divided into parts or persons, even if, in some way, the risen son remains notionally distinct from the Father by being given his own throne of judgement.
Click to expand...

NO, FIRMLY HOLDING THE TRUTH, AND IN TRUTH, WE KNOW HIM.
 
T

tucksma

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#869
#869
Re: Study up...

VCO said:
Which part of the triune GOD appears in human form, and eventually does Create for Himself a body in the womb of Mary that HE can dwell in? AND remember, Mal. 3:6 teaches us that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

The question is, "WHY do you people continue to DENY THAT GOD THE SON CAME AS A MAN?"

2 John 1:7 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Click to expand...
Because the bible as a whole does not teach that Jesus is God. There are so many clear cut differences between the two that only make sense if you add in "The father" after the word god. Like "God cannot die" but Jesus did. It doesn't say God the father, it says God. Or "no one has seen God" It doesn't say God the father it says God. That is where my problem is. My friend made a Giant chart of differences between the two that would only make sense if "the father" was put into scripture. Also John 17 tells us Jesus wants us to be one in him the same way he is one with God, if this talks about a trinity, then it would mean we could join this trinity, which makes no sense.
 
T

tucksma

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#870
#870
krow said:
Jesus as the Messiah has equality with God and He had control over the elements, life and death, could do only the works God can do, the lame walked, the blind saw, the deaf heard, the dead were raised to life and He brought life to the souls of those who believed in His name. We know by Genesis God SPOKE the world into existence. Jesus is the Word that He spoke. This is why He told the Jews. "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM". No angel will allow a human to worship it as that would be a sin egregious enough to be cast from God's presence and damned, and no mere angel would claim God's name. Remember when Gabriel appeared to Mary for example? He claimed his own name and merely told that he stood in the presence of God and had instructions for Mary. Pre-incarnate Christ giving a message for the father can be called an angel in mission but He can still claim God's name.
Click to expand...
Then explain verses that specifically say that The father is over the son? If Jesus and God are equal, then Jesus was wrong in saying that, which all know Jesus was never wrong.
 
K

krow

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#871
#871
tucksma said:
Then explain verses that specifically say that The father is over the son? If Jesus and God are equal, then Jesus was wrong in saying that, which all know Jesus was never wrong.
Click to expand...
Jesus had to humble Himself and take on human form and lay down some of His rights, namely to avoid the condition of mankind in His body etc, He was fully God and fully man at the same time so He could have real temptations and have to submit to God fully. Something we could never do. But He must be both to be the bridge between both man and God.

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: [SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in very nature[SUP][a][/SUP] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[SUP][b][/SUP] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
 
K

krow

Guest
#872
#872
I realize that unless your a believer with the Holy Spirit ministering to you this must be even harder to take on faith. I have tried to explain it, but I have seen better explanations of the trinity online and I can search for the one I'm thinking of again.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
#873
#873
Bowman said:
No angel is ever called Yahweh unless He IS Yahweh.

You are referring to Malek Yahweh which is The Son in the OT

Who is Jesus quoting in Mark 12.26?

Mark 12:26,

But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?



He is quoting Himself, God the Son, as thus…



Exodus 3.1 - 6

And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.


These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.

Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.

Who occupied the burning bush?

• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)







That Malek Yahweh is actually Yahweh, and that Moses spoke to Malek Yahweh, is proven in these verses, as thus…



Deut 4.15 - 19

Therefore you shall carefully watch over your souls, for you have not seen any likeness in the day Yahweh spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire, that you not deal corruptly, and make for yourselves a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female, the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens; the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth; and that you not lift up your eyes towards the heavens and shall see the sun, and the heavens, and you be drawn away and worship them, and serve them; which Yahweh Elohim has allotted to all the peoples under all the heavens.





It really should not come as any surprise that Moses saw and spoke to The Son, as the NT also records that Abraham did likewise…


John 8.56 – 58

Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
Click to expand...
With John 8 : 56-58
Before there doesn't always mean time line, it can mean in authority. The reason this is shown here is because the jews at the time were putting Abraham over Jesus in importance and in authority. Jesus was trying to show that he was correct. Also by saying this he is also saying he is over Moses because they viewed Abraham over Moses. Which then ties into how Jesus fulfilled the law.

Is Malek Hebrew? Looking at my Lexicon and can't seem to find it. Could be user error though haha.
 
W

weakness

Guest
#874
#874
Re: Study up...

tucksma said:
Because the bible as a whole does not teach that Jesus is God. There are so many clear cut differences between the two that only make sense if you add in "The father" after the word god. Like "God cannot die" but Jesus did. It doesn't say God the father, it says God. Or "no one has seen God" It doesn't say God the father it says God. That is where my problem is. My friend made a Giant chart of differences between the two that would only make sense if "the father" was put into scripture. Also John 17 tells us Jesus wants us to be one in him the same way he is one with God, if this talks about a trinity, then it would mean we could join this trinity, which makes no sense.[/QU As the body of Christ we can join the trinity. We are adopted children into Gods family. We are born of God. Begotten of God. A dog begets a dog, a cat begets a cat, a lion begets a lion, God begets a ????
Click to expand...
 
T

tucksma

Guest
#876
#876
krow said:
Jesus had to humble Himself and take on human form and lay down some of His rights, namely to avoid the condition of mankind in His body etc, He was fully God and fully man at the same time so He could have real temptations and have to submit to God fully. Something we could never do. But He must be both to be the bridge between both man and God.

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: [SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in very nature[SUP][a][/SUP] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[SUP][b][/SUP] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Click to expand...
What verses and version is that?
 
T

tucksma

Guest
#878
#878
Re: Study up...

weakness said:
tucksma said:
Because the bible as a whole does not teach that Jesus is God. There are so many clear cut differences between the two that only make sense if you add in "The father" after the word god. Like "God cannot die" but Jesus did. It doesn't say God the father, it says God. Or "no one has seen God" It doesn't say God the father it says God. That is where my problem is. My friend made a Giant chart of differences between the two that would only make sense if "the father" was put into scripture. Also John 17 tells us Jesus wants us to be one in him the same way he is one with God, if this talks about a trinity, then it would mean we could join this trinity, which makes no sense.[/QU As the body of Christ we can join the trinity. We are adopted children into Gods family. We are born of God. Begotten of God. A dog begets a dog, a cat begets a cat, a lion begets a lion, God begets a ????
Click to expand...
So you think we can become God? Hmmmm yeah I would never say that.
Click to expand...
 
K

krow

Guest
#879
#879
tucksma said:
What verses and version is that?
Click to expand...
Its the newer NIV one is in the chapter of Philippians two and the other is at the end of Matthew I think. It reads the same in KJV but its easier to read modern english.
 
K

krow

Guest
#880
#880
Re: Study up...

tucksma said:
weakness said:
So you think we can become God? Hmmmm yeah I would never say that.
Click to expand...
We become adopted sons of God, and co-heirs with Christ.

[h=3]Romans 8:16-18[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Click to expand...
 
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