There have been many claimants to the title of the Messiah as predicted in the Torah. How can we know Jesus is the right one?

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EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
281
162
43
#43
I have no idea what your point is.
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:4-6).
 

Bbrdrd

Active member
Apr 2, 2020
633
212
43
#44
That's a 'begging the question' fallacy.
You asked for evidence of Jesus' Messiahship, the evidence is in the gospels. It is not assuming the end to direct you to the place of evidence.

Matthew's gospel, for instance, lists multiple prophecies Jesus fulfilled often commenting directly on where they are to be found. Luke's gospel gives a more general explanation of how Jesus is the hope of the world. Mark and John's are each a little less useful for this task as they are concerned with demonstrating aspects of Jesus' nature, Mark showing His humanity and John His divinity.

Your response is as if you asked for evidence of a geological phenomenon and someone pointed you to striation tables and you declared they were begging the question.

In fact, in such a denial you are actually begging the question by defining what you will accept as evidence.
 
Apr 14, 2020
263
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#45
Why don’t you find his resurrection from the dead persuasive?

Jesus is the seed of Abraham. All who belong to Jesus, Jews and Gentiles, will receive the land promised to Abraham. Do you doubt that Jesus is the Messiah because the land hasn’t yet been given to Abraham and his seed?
Those who were crucified were left to hang and rot as an example to others. It is highly unlikely Jesus' body would be reclaimed for burial.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,411
2,473
113
#46
Those who were crucified were left to hang and rot as an example to others. It is highly unlikely Jesus' body would be reclaimed for burial.
And yet the bible says He was.

And the bible says He resurrected the 3rd day.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
4,493
923
113
#47
John 19:31 -

Berean Study Bible
"It was the day of Preparation, and the next day was a High Sabbath. In order that the bodies would not remain on the cross during the Sabbath, the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed."



Deuteronomy 21:22-23 -

Cursed is Anyone Hung on a Tree
(Galatians 3:10-14)

"22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God; ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,136
1,416
113
#48
No logical fallacies please.
When John the Baptist was ready to face death .he had some doubts .Doubt is not the opposite of faith .Unbelief, no faith is.

He prayed and sent other disciples to be reassured that the lies he was experiencing from the accuser of the brethren only come out by prayer and fasting . Jesus in a parable in return revealed the kind of fast that is heard on high.

The spiritually blind see. Those who previously did not walk by faith (the unseen) learn how to walk .Those who had no sensitivity to the gospel (lepers) are given a new spirit . those dead in their trespasses and sin are raised given a living hope. And those spiritually bankrupt are filled with the riches of the gospel. the blessing of all who are not offend by the gospel . the true fast (The law of fasting revealed in the parable set aside Isaiah 58 )

Note...(Green) the work of the gospel working in the heart of mankind.

Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. Mathew 11: 2-6

John hearing the gospel mixing what he did hear with faith entered the rest from his own works making the burden lighter .

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
4,493
923
113
#49
[adding to my Post #47]

Mark 15 -

39 And the centurion standing opposite of Him, having seen that He breathed His last,c thus said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”

40 And there were also women looking on from afar off, among whom also were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the least and of Joseph, and Salome, 41 who had been following Him and had been ministering to Him when He was in Galilee, and many other ones having come up with Him to Jerusalem.

The Burial of Jesus
(Isaiah 53:9-12; Matthew 27:57-61; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)

42 And evening having arrived already, since it was the Preparation, that is, the day before Sabbath, 43 having come, Joseph from Arimathea, a prominent Council member, who was also himself waiting for the kingdom of God, having boldness, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate wondered if already He were dead. And having summoned the centurion, he questioned him whether He had died already. 45 And having known it from the centurion, He granted the body to Joseph.
46 And having bought a linen cloth, having taken Him down, he wrapped Him in the linen cloth and laid Him in a tomb which was cut out of a rock. And he rolled a stone to the door of the tomb. 47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Josephd were watching where He was laid.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,883
748
113
#50
My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning? O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; And in the night season, and am not silent. But You are holy, Enthroned in the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in You; They trusted, and You delivered them. They cried to You, and were delivered; They trusted in You, and were not ashamed. But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people. All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, “He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!” But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts. I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother’s womb You have been My God. Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots. But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, hasten to help Me! Deliver Me from the sword, My precious life from the power of the dog. Save Me from the lion’s mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me. I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. You who fear the Lord, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel! For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard. My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who fear Him. The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the Lord. Let your heart live forever! All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord’s, And He rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive. A posterity shall serve Him. It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation, They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, That He has done this.

King David had written this a few hundred years before the birth of Christ. In fact it was written before Rome even knew and adopted crucifixion as a capital punishment.
The more surer word for seekers is prophecy.
God does not stretch the truth when it comes to prophecy but yet gives precise wordage and details in prophecy. Unlike the other wivestales or fallacies which you need to stretch the imagination to come to a conclusion.

For example.

He will be born in Bethlehem.
He will come out of Egypt.
He will be born of a virgin.
He will be the seed of David.
The Jews will reject him.
He will heal the sick, raise the dead, cleans the leper.
He will give his life as a ransom.
Even his name was prophesied.

This may peak your interest...the book of Luke was written about 30 yrs after as a investigated search on the claims of Jesus. Luke was not a believer at first but was sent to find out the truths or disclaims of Christ. Interviewing the people and their claims he became a believer finding evidence.
Josephus a historian and a atheist was well known for keeping accurate accounts of the history back then and if you read his book will show that the biblical accounts were not fallacies but actually factual.

I challenge you to disprove the contents of the Bible and pray that the Holy Spirit guides you into the truth of the word. Many have tried and by the grace of God and the truth have become faithful followers of Christ.
 
Apr 14, 2020
263
15
18
#52
My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning? O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; And in the night season, and am not silent. But You are holy, Enthroned in the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in You; They trusted, and You delivered them. They cried to You, and were delivered; They trusted in You, and were not ashamed. But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people. All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, “He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!” But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts. I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother’s womb You have been My God. Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots. But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, hasten to help Me! Deliver Me from the sword, My precious life from the power of the dog. Save Me from the lion’s mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me. I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. You who fear the Lord, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel! For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard. My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who fear Him. The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the Lord. Let your heart live forever! All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord’s, And He rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive. A posterity shall serve Him. It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation, They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, That He has done this.

King David had written this a few hundred years before the birth of Christ. In fact it was written before Rome even knew and adopted crucifixion as a capital punishment.
The more surer word for seekers is prophecy.
God does not stretch the truth when it comes to prophecy but yet gives precise wordage and details in prophecy. Unlike the other wivestales or fallacies which you need to stretch the imagination to come to a conclusion.

For example.

He will be born in Bethlehem.
He will come out of Egypt.
He will be born of a virgin.
He will be the seed of David.
The Jews will reject him.
He will heal the sick, raise the dead, cleans the leper.
He will give his life as a ransom.
Even his name was prophesied.

This may peak your interest...the book of Luke was written about 30 yrs after as a investigated search on the claims of Jesus. Luke was not a believer at first but was sent to find out the truths or disclaims of Christ. Interviewing the people and their claims he became a believer finding evidence.
Josephus a historian and a atheist was well known for keeping accurate accounts of the history back then and if you read his book will show that the biblical accounts were not fallacies but actually factual.

I challenge you to disprove the contents of the Bible and pray that the Holy Spirit guides you into the truth of the word. Many have tried and by the grace of God and the truth have become faithful followers of Christ.
Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,492
7,813
113
#53
Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem.
On what do you base this contrabiblical assertion?

Come on Buffy, you want others to step up and provide non-fallacious evidence for their claims, but you make quips like this with no evidence. You need to do at least as much as you expect from others.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,492
7,813
113
#54
Well if the Bible says so it must be true.
Your snark is quite unnecessary. Again, it makes you seem like a troll instead of a truth seeker.

We Christians hold the Bible to be truth. Many of us have tested its content and found it reliable. You haven't... yet. That's fine, but don't expect us to embrace your viewpoint in order to satisfy your evidentiary demands.
 
Apr 14, 2020
263
15
18
#55
On what do you base this contrabiblical assertion?

Come on Buffy, you want others to step up and provide non-fallacious evidence for their claims, but you make quips like this with no evidence. You need to do at least as much as you expect from others.
No historical evidence of the census requiring everyone to move to the town of their birth (so I guess the economy is gonna shut down whilst x% of people are travelling?). The Romans were scrupulous record keepers, yet there is no mention of this census.
 
Apr 14, 2020
263
15
18
#56
Your snark is quite unnecessary. Again, it makes you seem like a troll instead of a truth seeker.

We Christians hold the Bible to be truth. Many of us have tested its content and found it reliable. You haven't... yet. That's fine, but don't expect us to embrace your viewpoint in order to satisfy your evidentiary demands.
Do you believe everything it says in the Bible?
 

Mattathias

Active member
Jun 6, 2020
326
35
28
#57
Those who were crucified were left to hang and rot as an example to others. It is highly unlikely Jesus' body would be reclaimed for burial.
”Highly unlikely,” but not impossible. Even in your skepticism you leave room for God vindicating Jesus.

Have you ever visited a synagogue? Jesus isn’t welcome there. Even in the synagogue his enemies have admitted to me that Jesus was buried. It’s his resurrection they deny, not his burial.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,492
7,813
113
#58
When John the Baptist was ready to face death .he had some doubts .Doubt is not the opposite of faith .Unbelief, no faith is.

He prayed and sent other disciples to be reassured that the lies he was experiencing from the accuser of the brethren only come out by prayer and fasting . Jesus in a parable in return revealed the kind of fast that is heard on high.
Wow, you have really mixed up the Scriptures. John had doubts, and he sent some of his followers to Jesus with a simple but important question. No fasting, no prayer, no lies from the accuser... and it's NOT a parable!

The spiritually blind see. Those who previously did not walk by faith (the unseen) learn how to walk .Those who had no sensitivity to the gospel (lepers) are given a new spirit . those dead in their trespasses and sin are raised given a living hope. And those spiritually bankrupt are filled with the riches of the gospel. the blessing of all who are not offend by the gospel . the true fast (The law of fasting revealed in the parable set aside Isaiah 58 )
Those literally blind had their eyesight restored. Those who literally could not walk were restored to mobility. Those who were literal lepers were cleansed. Those who were literally dead were raised again to earthly life. Those who were literally poor received good news. When you take away the literal interpretation, the entire earthly ministry of Jesus becomes meaningless, because the spiritual truth is left with no basis in tangible reality.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,136
1,416
113
#59
I thought the messiah was meant to secure a homeland for the Jews?

We must be careful on how we hear or say we do?

Not all Israel, the "born again" name, are of the the true Israel . We walk by faith (the unseen eternal ) not by sight (the temporal flesh and blood)

The messiah used the temporal corrupted land to revel the unseen eternal land. Some Jews did not mix faith in what they heard or saw. and walked by sight. no faith. Out of sight out of mind (the pagan foundation.)

It did for the inward Jew "born again" .But she as the chaste virgin bride the church was renamed "Christian" in Acts. A more befitting name in respect to a kingdom of priest from all the nations. Men and woman. The promised time of reformation came nearly two thousand years ago. But not the outward Jew according to the corrupted flesh of mankind. They rejected him, even members of His own family.

The Son of man Jesus revealed his Jewish flesh profits for nothing, zero. But did reveal what does profit. It is the Spirit of God who worked in the Son of man , Jesus . . the apostle and prophet .

The fathers words are Spirit and spirit life giving. The Father of all the breath of life. The breath of faith (not of ourselves) is that which works in these earthen bodies of death.

The experience of our first love. (Believing God not seen). It is the same love we return to when we do fail . Only Jesus kept them perfectly without sin, doing the will of of Christ our God and lord. He did not do the will of his flesh. .He suffered with the father to do the will of the father .Together as one God creating the peace of God that surpasses our understanding .Again giving us his faith so we can hear and understand our first love.