There will be no Rapture!!!

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ and P.S. I agree with the poster saying that His "wrath" commences AT SEAL #1 (when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by opening the First Seal at the START of the 7-yr Trib);

... but, to the argument concerning 1Th1:10 and 5:9<--these passages do not specify "God's Wrath ONLY" [which "FollowerofShiloh" is trying to suggest means IN HELL]... SO "Satan's wrath" (starting at MID-trib) legitimately qualifies as well;
And if it's true that Rev6:4=Ezek38:21 (at the 2nd SEAL), there are also "wrath" words pertaining (Ezek38:18-19);
And if it's true (as I point out) that the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a is parallel to the wording in Lam2:3-4 (with "wrath" words associated), then His "wrath" indeed STARTS with SEAL #1 (WHEN "the man of sin BE REVEALED"<--this isn't at the LATER "SITTETH in the temple of God" point in the chronology at MID-trib 2Th2:4b, no...)... JUST LIKE when the events surrounding Lam2:3-4 came to be (time-wise).

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You are not grasping what I am saying.


Other passages speak of HUMANS ON THE EARTH in the same way [/using the same wording] that Job 1:6 and 2:1 are worded (in the Hebrew).



Those humans on the earth did NOT relocate in order to present before the Lord;

NOR did God relocate His "throne" (to the earth) in order for them to present before the Lord.



They EACH REMAINED in their own distinctive realms, and yet the humans present before the Lord IN THOSE OTHER TEXTS (so why not in Job??)




IF there were NO OTHER passages speaking of this, then you would have a case; but there IS!



____________


In addition to that, I know of NO OTHER [biblical] instance, where it says (of Heaven) "There BECAME A DAY, when..."


Sure, Scripture speaks of specific dates and points of time ON THE EARTH (in relation to Heaven/God), but not UP THERE "There BECAME AND DAY, when...". If you can find a text saying such, then change my mind on that. = )

Not what I was discussing but I understand your position.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [this is why Paul says WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY will not be present on the earth when the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" ARRIVES to unfold upon the earth, followed by MANY MORE "birth pangs" leading up to His Second Coming to the earth]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not what I was discussing but I understand your position.

I know you were referencing 1Ki22:19 / 2Chron18:18. ("the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left.")



I was speaking of the text of Job 1:6 and 2:1 (and its context).



[ ^ for the readers ^ ]

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

There are the first and second resurrections, rapture doctrine is foolishness wrapped up in “christian” idleness fueled by hollywood and the Left Behind cult.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ And yet, in 1Cor15, the text states in v23, "[re: resurrection] But each IN HIS OWN ORDER [/ RANK]" (referring to that which v.2b had just been speaking about, due to the "BUT[-conjunction]" in v.23a);




And in addition to that ^ , there's the point regarding the two distinct words Paul uses (in v.23 and in v.24a), "EPeita" and "eita"... (the LATTER of these two ['eita'] being a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY with NO time-element attached to it; However, "EPeita" [v.23] meaning, "UPON-then," SIMILAR to our English word "thereupon" [carrying a CLOSER-IN-TIME meaning]; EVERYTHING in v.23 is "FUTURE")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

that which v.2b had just

Typo: sorry... "v.22b" (not v.2)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

rapture doctrine is foolishness

So you believe "G726 - ἁρπαγησόμεθα - harpagēsometha " is not a biblical doctrine, ... and thus not worthy of discussion here?



I see...



( )

 

[Genez]

The War already happened.

Satan was booted and Jesus said it was like watching him fall like lightning

That was when he first fell.. As being, Lucifer, the morning star...

He was a special light bearing angel.
That is why some translated his name "Lucifer," for he was a light bearing morning star.

Don't want open a can of worms. But, in the prehistoric creation, certain angels were designated as stars in the sky to possibly guide the prehistoric animals and set seasons.

That is why these angels were called "morning stars!" Light bearers!

Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels (sons of God) shouted for joy?

Job 38:5-7​

grace and peace ..............

 

[cv5]

Wait a sec... don't you believe the "7 Vials," of which it is stated, "for IN THEM the WRATH OF GOD is COMPLETED" takes place ON THE EARTH rather than "in hell" [/somewhere outside the realm of "earth"]??

These vial judgments occur after the AC is indwelt by Satan, which itself must occur before the AC introduces the mark of the beast.

The point being that these vial judgments are cast intentionally upon the irredeemable......those that have no need of mercy.

Much of the earlier judgements have a merciful and salvific purpose. For example torments of various types yet no death for five months. A foretaste of the environment of the lake of fire.....and a warning NOT to take the mark of the beast.

 

[Musicmaster]

Good job buddy.

Here are a few more comments:

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...bulation-rapture-doctrine.208251/post-5308736

All OT and NT passages need to be taken into account to get the big picture.
These passages are insufficient......but enough to start with.

That is an absolutely true statement. It is only using systematic studies that one is able to piece together the entire portraiture that scripture provides, with Holy Spirit filling in the rest as He deems fit. (1 John 2:27)

Amen

MM

 

[cv5]

There are the first and second resurrections, rapture doctrine is foolishness wrapped up in “christian” idleness fueled by hollywood and the Left Behind cult.

It is your vapid, vacuous posts that are a demonstration of idleness, sloth and willful ignorance.

Ours are loaded with superb Biblical exegetical treatments, logic and truth.

 

[cv5]

These vial judgments occur after the AC is indwelt by Satan, which itself must occur before the AC introduces the mark of the beast.

The point being that these vial judgments are cast intentionally upon the irredeemable......those that have no need of mercy.

Much of the earlier judgements have a merciful and salvific purpose. For example torments of various types yet no death for five months. A foretaste of the environment of the lake of fire.....and a warning NOT to take the mark of the beast.

Proof text:

Rev 14:9
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10
“he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

 

[Musicmaster]

I would imagine you probably never had the following enter your mind before.

A nation does what before going to war? ​

​

It recalls its ambassadors. ​

Hence? The RAPTURE!

There are those, however, who believe Yah does what is practiced by man-made religions that leave their priests, nuns, whatever they have out there, in harm's way. Yah is more than a cut above all those. Loving the Church as He does, and then leaving her to be battered and killed by His enemies...that's just an unthinkable character seen nowhere in scripture. The idea of Yah punishing the entire body of Christ because of those who have departed and/or traipsed back into a life of sin, and who are not watching, in the manner as is commanded in Luke 21:36. that's on them, and they will indeed remain behind, taking their chances at being among the one out of every two who will die in just the first 42 months.

If I believed in luck, I'd say to them, "Good luck," but I don't and won't.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

All of the Angels presenting themselves before God is not happening ever on Earth. God's Throne is in Heaven. During the 1,000 year Reign it will then also be on Earth.

David's throne is on earth, which will be occupied by Yahshuah during His Millennial reign upon that throne on this earth, while God's Throne is in Heaven...always has been and always will be, as is seen while He who sits on that Throne hands the seven sealed scroll to the Lamb Who stands before Him.

MM

 

[cv5]

1260 day time you say?

3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Your problem:

The phenomenon of the AC. Who he is, when he is, what he becomes, what he represents, how the OT types describe him (HINT: GOLIATH THE NEPHILIM!), and much more.

The ONLY person in Scripture that is described to have been indwelt by Satan is......JUDAS. Who was ALWAYS the enemy in the midst, always opposed Christ.

No other person in history fits the description of the AC, therefore, the prophecies of Revelation cannot possibly have come to pass.

Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is ["a" NOT IN TEXT] devil? G1228

"THE devil" (G1228) as in every other place used.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1228/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

[Musicmaster]

There are the first and second resurrections, rapture doctrine is foolishness wrapped up in “christian” idleness fueled by hollywood and the Left Behind cult.

I don't know if your avatar name indicates you're a real Israelite, but I sure am, and what you're saying here is baseless. Back it up with something of substance, if you can.

MM

 

[HeIsHere]

There are the first and second resurrections, rapture doctrine is foolishness wrapped up in “christian” idleness fueled by hollywood and the Left Behind cult.

Agree!

I think this member makes a good argument against the great vanishing.
@Angela53510 states:


This is where not knowing Koine Greek messes up your theology. In fact:

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess 4:17

The key issues, are:

1. that heaven is not mentioned in the verse! ἀέρα or "air" is the air around us. Ouranos is heaven, and does not appear in this verse! So, we are not going to heaven with Jesus.

2. "secret" is not found in this verse. There can be no "secret." In fact, elsewhere it says of the Second Coming of Jesus:

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen." Rev 1:7

This is the Second Coming talked about in 1 Thess 4:17. Every eye will see him! Nothing secret at all!

3. ἀπάντησιν. This word means "to meet" as your translation correctly says. However, the translation neglects to mention the rest of the meaning. Cleon Roger's Jr & Cleon Rodgers III scholarly book, "The
New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament," (which we used in Baptist seminary), gives the complete definition. It refers to the return of a conquering hero. The people go out to meet the victor and accompany him back to their city. This word is found only in 3 places on the NT. In Acts 28:15, it refers to the people going out "to meet" Paul, and then return with him to the Rome.

In 1 Thess 4:17, it refers to Christians meeting Jesus in the air around us, and then returning to earth for Judgement Day. Heaven is not where we go, apantesin means the people "meet and return" to earth with Jesus. Paul used that word on purpose, just as Luke did in Acts 28:15.

4. Finally this supposed rapture! Only one Bible contains a transliteration of "harpazo" into rapture and that is Jerome's Latin Bible, translated in the 4th century AD. So 400 years after Christ, and Jerome did not know Koine Greek well, as it was starting to die out. Harpazo means "to snatch, grab!" This refers to the suddenness of the Second Coming! Jerome transliterated, not translated harpazo to sound like a similar Latin word. That being rapiere, which means "abduct" according to one source. Will Jesus abduct us? Not likely. But he will suddenly grab us, so we can meet him in the air.

Further, hermeneutics or Bible interpretation requires we do not make a major doctrine out of one verse in the Bible. There must be many references, for anything to become a pivotal doctrine, which rapture does not have. In fact, the word "Rapture" does not appear in the Bible at all, but the Second Coming does!

1 Thess 4:17 is a reference to Jesus Christ's Second Coming! We are waiting for Jesus to return, not a nonsensical "secret rapture to heaven." Not one of those words is present in 1 Thess 4:17, in Koine Greek or English!

 

[cv5]

Agree!

I think this member makes a good argument against the great vanishing.
@Angela53510 states:


This is where not knowing Koine Greek messes up your theology. In fact:

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess 4:17

The key issues, are:

1. that heaven is not mentioned in the verse! ἀέρα or "air" is the air around us. Ouranos is heaven, and does not appear in this verse! So, we are not going to heaven with Jesus.

2. "secret" is not found in this verse. There can be no "secret." In fact, elsewhere it says of the Second Coming of Jesus:

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen." Rev 1:7

This is the Second Coming talked about in 1 Thess 4:17. Every eye will see him! Nothing secret at all!

3. ἀπάντησιν. This word means "to meet" as your translation correctly says. However, the translation neglects to mention the rest of the meaning. Cleon Roger's Jr & Cleon Rodgers III scholarly book, "The
New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament," (which we used in Baptist seminary), gives the complete definition. It refers to the return of a conquering hero. The people go out to meet the victor and accompany him back to their city. This word is found only in 3 places on the NT. In Acts 28:15, it refers to the people going out "to meet" Paul, and then return with him to the Rome.

In 1 Thess 4:17, it refers to Christians meeting Jesus in the air around us, and then returning to earth for Judgement Day. Heaven is not where we go, apantesin means the people "meet and return" to earth with Jesus. Paul used that word on purpose, just as Luke did in Acts 28:15.

4. Finally this supposed rapture! Only one Bible contains a transliteration of "harpazo" into rapture and that is Jerome's Latin Bible, translated in the 4th century AD. So 400 years after Christ, and Jerome did not know Koine Greek well, as it was starting to die out. Harpazo means "to snatch, grab!" This refers to the suddenness of the Second Coming! Jerome transliterated, not translated harpazo to sound like a similar Latin word. That being rapiere, which means "abduct" according to one source. Will Jesus abduct us? Not likely. But he will suddenly grab us, so we can meet him in the air.

Further, hermeneutics or Bible interpretation requires we do not make a major doctrine out of one verse in the Bible. There must be many references, for anything to become a pivotal doctrine, which rapture does not have. In fact, the word "Rapture" does not appear in the Bible at all, but the Second Coming does!

1 Thess 4:17 is a reference to Jesus Christ's Second Coming! We are waiting for Jesus to return, not a nonsensical "secret rapture to heaven." Not one of those words is present in 1 Thess 4:17, in Koine Greek or English!

Kerfuffle.

The fact is that the rapture MUST occur before the DOTL and Revelation chapter 6 and the time of Jacobs trouble.
In fact, God, having the advantage of being outside of time, keeps the TIME of the rapture secret FROM SATAN so that His end of the age finale comes to pass exactly as specified earlier in prophecy.

The Jewish wedding ritual is the key that unlocks all end-time eschatological doors. If something doesn't match.....it must be jettisoned.

Oh yes....."harpazo" is DEFINITELY a thing. No doubt about that. Goes waaaaaay back.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

David's throne is on earth, which will be occupied by Yahshuah during His Millennial reign upon that throne on this earth, while God's Throne is in Heaven...always has been and always will be, as is seen while He who sits on that Throne hands the seven sealed scroll to the Lamb Who stands before Him.

MM

Amen and I did mention that to the one I happened to be answering at the time