Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer
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He called out on the name of the lord and he was saved, His heart believed in righteousness,And by his mouth he was made righteous.
He was saved at that moment. Before (if he even did anyworks) he did one work, Just like Abraham, He believed God (entrusted him) and it was credited to him for righteousness. .
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For the record, we are saved by grace through faith. Period.
Works do not save, but are indeed evidence of conversion.
No evidence = no conversion.
But you all, go on ahead with the attack and accuse me of saying we work our way to eternal life, something I haven't even remotely stated while showing your limited knowledge and disdain for the Gospel and sound doctrine.
Works do not save, but are indeed evidence of conversion.
No evidence = no conversion.
But you all, go on ahead with the attack and accuse me of saying we work our way to eternal life, something I haven't even remotely stated while showing your limited knowledge and disdain for the Gospel and sound doctrine.
Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
1 Corinthians 12:9 - to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit.
God has granted a differing measure of faith to His children. I don't see this as saving faith that all Christians have in Christ, since Paul implies that some in the body have it and others don't. I see it as a special endowment of faith to accomplish certain tasks in ministry.
1 Corinthians 12:9 - to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit.
God has granted a differing measure of faith to His children. I don't see this as saving faith that all Christians have in Christ, since Paul implies that some in the body have it and others don't. I see it as a special endowment of faith to accomplish certain tasks in ministry.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).
The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.
The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.
Yes, I'm for real and faith is a gift. Romans 12:3; Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 3:16.
That you don't know this most basic truth, and the fact that you deny clear things seen in Scripture is remarkable.
He already has.
That you don't know this most basic truth, and the fact that you deny clear things seen in Scripture is remarkable.
He already has.
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Faith in Christ is not a work, and is a gift, Because it is based on the completed work of Christ, and the promises given (eternal life) based on that promise.
It is not based on faith in our work, or righteousness, Our deeds, or anything we do. Which would be faith in self. Another faith in Christ.
Faith to do gifts, is a measure of faith given to children of God. And does not concern salvation.
The hole in this analogy of the Orange tree is that most fruit trees, and specifically citrus trees, give the fragrance of their fruit through their leaves before fruit grows or a blossom is even visible...it takes time for a recently converted babe to grow fruit, but the fragrance of Jesus Christ should abound on them....
2 Corinthians 2.14-16 says:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; [SUP]16 [/SUP]to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?
2 Corinthians 2.14-16 says:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; [SUP]16 [/SUP]to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?
It gets confusing.
When people say repentance is just believing in Christ, that is not biblical repentance.
So it is a legitimate response to say if you redefine repentance to mean this, in our
use of the word, people do not believe in admiting sin is wrong, feelling sorrow for their
sin, desiring not to repeat this sin, and to walk in righteousness, or doing good things,
the right things.
Now I would not call this a lie, but just admiting the truth of definitions.
Why is it a kind of censorship has arisen, if someone redefines a word, they are now
still believing the concept when clearly they are not. But I suppose this is the world
of changes and distortions to create conflict, without clearly saying what you mean
and using different terms than the traditional ones. But then scripture would not
make sense to you, so I suppose I understand why you do it.
When people say repentance is just believing in Christ, that is not biblical repentance.
So it is a legitimate response to say if you redefine repentance to mean this, in our
use of the word, people do not believe in admiting sin is wrong, feelling sorrow for their
sin, desiring not to repeat this sin, and to walk in righteousness, or doing good things,
the right things.
Now I would not call this a lie, but just admiting the truth of definitions.
Why is it a kind of censorship has arisen, if someone redefines a word, they are now
still believing the concept when clearly they are not. But I suppose this is the world
of changes and distortions to create conflict, without clearly saying what you mean
and using different terms than the traditional ones. But then scripture would not
make sense to you, so I suppose I understand why you do it.
Yet the Bible says we should have the fragrance of Christ:
2 Corinthians 2.14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; [SUP]16 [/SUP]to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?
Repentance has to be redefined under the lie Peter.
Examine the starting point or underlying premise of what people believe. Once a point of origin is understood the destination can be more readily understood in context.
The starting premise of most upon these boards are...
1. Original Sin - Dual Nature Doctrine - Man is "born" evil and condemned. Sin is associated with the flesh itself and is thus separated from an act of free will, thus man is "disabled" from the virtuous choice. Under this framework of thinking "repentance" can only ever be a "confession of sinfulness" as opposed to a "departure from iniquity."
2. Substitution - Jesus satisfied divine justice via means of a legal or judicial exchange - The exchange provides the basis upon which God justifies the sinner. Thus when the sinner "confesses their sinfulness" and "trusts Jesus" the exchange kicks in and covers the sinners sinfulness and condemnation.
Most people on these boards believe in some version of those two points thus they are intellectually forced to view salvation in an abstract context. Salvation is thus a mere POSITION or STATUS ADJUSTMENT totally disconnected from the true condition of the heart.
The Bible teaches Ransom and Covenant, a context of being "rescued from the bondage of sin" and entering into covenant with God in which one is granted a fresh start (sins forgiven). This is what the very early Church taught. They did not teach any notion of a dual nature whereby one the flesh itself is blamed for the ongoing service of evil (ie. sin never stops and thus righteousness can only ever be partial). They also did not teach any notion of substitution in which Jesus obedience replaced theirs whereby God made some kind of positional legal adjustment.
Trying to debate people without understanding the underlying fallacies which have trapped their minds is akin to trying to treat the symptoms of a sickness when the real issue is the ongoing intake of poison.
Think about it.
Examine the starting point or underlying premise of what people believe. Once a point of origin is understood the destination can be more readily understood in context.
The starting premise of most upon these boards are...
1. Original Sin - Dual Nature Doctrine - Man is "born" evil and condemned. Sin is associated with the flesh itself and is thus separated from an act of free will, thus man is "disabled" from the virtuous choice. Under this framework of thinking "repentance" can only ever be a "confession of sinfulness" as opposed to a "departure from iniquity."
2. Substitution - Jesus satisfied divine justice via means of a legal or judicial exchange - The exchange provides the basis upon which God justifies the sinner. Thus when the sinner "confesses their sinfulness" and "trusts Jesus" the exchange kicks in and covers the sinners sinfulness and condemnation.
Most people on these boards believe in some version of those two points thus they are intellectually forced to view salvation in an abstract context. Salvation is thus a mere POSITION or STATUS ADJUSTMENT totally disconnected from the true condition of the heart.
The Bible teaches Ransom and Covenant, a context of being "rescued from the bondage of sin" and entering into covenant with God in which one is granted a fresh start (sins forgiven). This is what the very early Church taught. They did not teach any notion of a dual nature whereby one the flesh itself is blamed for the ongoing service of evil (ie. sin never stops and thus righteousness can only ever be partial). They also did not teach any notion of substitution in which Jesus obedience replaced theirs whereby God made some kind of positional legal adjustment.
Trying to debate people without understanding the underlying fallacies which have trapped their minds is akin to trying to treat the symptoms of a sickness when the real issue is the ongoing intake of poison.
Think about it.
The same group that says nobody should judge their belief or evidence of their salvation seem to be the only ones labeling others, getting mad, breaking their arms off patting each other and themselves on the back...
Lets just reduce this stew down shall we....
Salvation is by grace and faith in what and through what Jesus did alone.....period.
Jesus said that one must produce fruit that remains....not as evidence of salvation, but as a fulfillment/confirmation of the great commission. Jesus did not say GO & SIT and REST, he said GO and MAKE. Jesus own fruit of his ministry were the 13-minus Judas + Paul
A Gospel message that does NOT produce fruit that remains[making disciples and followers of Jesus] is not the true Gospel....
Belief is not simple mental assenting, it is a heart condition brought about by the Holy Spirit's conviction that brings forth a Godly sorrow, which produces a repentance without regret, which is a faith response, that leads to salvation.
Easy believing and grace alone produces a mental assenting worldly sorrow that leads to death....
A new convert should at minimum have the fragrance of Christ....for example, I have had many new converts come back and freaking out that their old friends suddenly do not want to be around them....This is the example of genuine conversion...Light cannot have fellowship with darkness and darkness cannot comprehend the light.
Those that suggest fruit is not EVER needed after salvation need to read and heed Jesus own words.
The Bible doesn't teach that anywhere.
The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast, for we are His workmanship.
Grace is the power of God whereby we are quickened (made alive) with Christ...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Faith is simply wholehearted yielding to God because we trust Him. This is why faith is inclusive of obedience (Rom 6:26, Heb 11:8).
We are not out own workmanship, we are God's workmanship who...
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Which is why we have to "work out" our own salvation with fear and trembling...
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
"Work Out" being...
katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).
In other words "saved by grace through faith" is simply HEAR AND DO...
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Not a single writer in the Bible says anything close to...
Not a single writer.
The Bible does say though...
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
There is no disobedience to God in genuine salvation. There is no cloak for wickedness. God is merciful and gracious to us, but we have to repent and yield back to God. If there is no yielding then there can be no regeneration because God will not quicken one who refuses to lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, the Word simply cannot be received into a filthy and rebellious heart.
The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast, for we are His workmanship.
Grace is the power of God whereby we are quickened (made alive) with Christ...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Faith is simply wholehearted yielding to God because we trust Him. This is why faith is inclusive of obedience (Rom 6:26, Heb 11:8).
We are not out own workmanship, we are God's workmanship who...
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Which is why we have to "work out" our own salvation with fear and trembling...
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
"Work Out" being...
katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).
In other words "saved by grace through faith" is simply HEAR AND DO...
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Not a single writer in the Bible says anything close to...
Not a single writer.
The Bible does say though...
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
There is no disobedience to God in genuine salvation. There is no cloak for wickedness. God is merciful and gracious to us, but we have to repent and yield back to God. If there is no yielding then there can be no regeneration because God will not quicken one who refuses to lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, the Word simply cannot be received into a filthy and rebellious heart.
E
I am with you up to here 100 %
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And here is where we depart. If your talking about maintaining salvation.
Because if you are, you just contradicted what you said above.. You can not claim we are saved by faith alone, Then demand Jesus said we MUST (it is a requirement) that we do works.. Those are contradictions.
The only people claim that ANYONE says this is the group of people attacking those who preach salvation y grace alone through faith alone.
No one that I know, nor myself, teaches otherwise..
Again, The only people preaching otherwise are those who are attacking those who believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone.. Maybe you need to start reading what they are saying, then you will understand where we are coming from.
Those who suggest fruit is required to maintain, or get saved, are the ones who are in trouble. Because they are teaching self righteous salvation.
Those who teach salvation by grace alone through true saving faith alone would teach that fruit is an automatic result of being saved and faith (see the faith hall of fame in hebrews)
When you add the word MUST, you are adding law to grace, be careful how you word things, If you do not believe they are required to maintain salvation, The reason you are getting flack is because you add the word must,, Must means it is required, And is far different than WILL..
.
And here is where we depart. If your talking about maintaining salvation.
Because if you are, you just contradicted what you said above.. You can not claim we are saved by faith alone, Then demand Jesus said we MUST (it is a requirement) that we do works.. Those are contradictions.
The only people claim that ANYONE says this is the group of people attacking those who preach salvation y grace alone through faith alone.
No one that I know, nor myself, teaches otherwise..
Again, The only people preaching otherwise are those who are attacking those who believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone.. Maybe you need to start reading what they are saying, then you will understand where we are coming from.
Those who suggest fruit is required to maintain, or get saved, are the ones who are in trouble. Because they are teaching self righteous salvation.
Those who teach salvation by grace alone through true saving faith alone would teach that fruit is an automatic result of being saved and faith (see the faith hall of fame in hebrews)
When you add the word MUST, you are adding law to grace, be careful how you word things, If you do not believe they are required to maintain salvation, The reason you are getting flack is because you add the word must,, Must means it is required, And is far different than WILL..
We are not a "new evolution" - we are a new creation.
Those that have Christ in them have received a new heart. We simply work out what is already in us in Christ in the inner man of the heart as this is done as we have our minds renewed to the truth as we behold the goodness/glory of the Lord as in a mirror - the Holy Spirit transforms us as we participate in it with Him. For it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Man's heart was corrupted with the mystery of iniquity that entered into man-kind through Adam's transgression and it is passed on through the blood which is one of the reasons why Jesus had to be born from the Holy Spirit to by-pass the blood of man contaminating Him.
In the OT man's heart was desperately wicked because people were still "in Adam". The heart is the old man that was in Adam but now that Christ has came - we believers have a new heart. We have a new man of the heart now in Christ.
Get this wrong and we create a doctrine of a "new evolution" instead of a new creation in Christ. We create an works-based humanistic mindset that actually denies the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection.
In the next post I will show that believers in Christ have a new heart now. I believe the understanding of this is vital to growing up in the Lord. We need to get our "identity" correct.
Those that have Christ in them have received a new heart. We simply work out what is already in us in Christ in the inner man of the heart as this is done as we have our minds renewed to the truth as we behold the goodness/glory of the Lord as in a mirror - the Holy Spirit transforms us as we participate in it with Him. For it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Man's heart was corrupted with the mystery of iniquity that entered into man-kind through Adam's transgression and it is passed on through the blood which is one of the reasons why Jesus had to be born from the Holy Spirit to by-pass the blood of man contaminating Him.
In the OT man's heart was desperately wicked because people were still "in Adam". The heart is the old man that was in Adam but now that Christ has came - we believers have a new heart. We have a new man of the heart now in Christ.
Get this wrong and we create a doctrine of a "new evolution" instead of a new creation in Christ. We create an works-based humanistic mindset that actually denies the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection.
In the next post I will show that believers in Christ have a new heart now. I believe the understanding of this is vital to growing up in the Lord. We need to get our "identity" correct.
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Now if there is no development in being a Christian in our walk with Christ,
why is there a walk?
Jesus says we have to become like little children, ie trusting, open and
listening.
We have things to learn, to practice, to obey.
We have things to sow and reap, to learn and to teach.
We will be guided and tested, pruned and encouraged, rebuked and rewarded.
As you plant a tree in a garden, it is not fully grown over night, it takes year.
why is there a walk?
Jesus says we have to become like little children, ie trusting, open and
listening.
We have things to learn, to practice, to obey.
We have things to sow and reap, to learn and to teach.
We will be guided and tested, pruned and encouraged, rebuked and rewarded.
As you plant a tree in a garden, it is not fully grown over night, it takes year.
It seems you have difficulty in recognising the difference between God's once and for all saving activity from the guilt and penalty (eg Titus 3.4-7), which means that Christ's Righteousness is granted to us as a gift (Roman 3.22-5.23) and His resulting present saving activity from the power of sin in making us an aroma of life to life.